".. Running"

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:47 pm

Got a few questions...

For VFR under 703, you can operate as low as 300 AGL by day (1000 ft above highest obstacle within 3sm by night), and for VFR under 704 you can go as low as 500 AGL.

Are you still required to have the same VFR requirements under CARs 600s (i.e. for controlled airspace- 500 ft vertical seperation from clouds, 1 sm horizontal, 3sm flight viz.... etc)?

For example, assume you are doing a short flight under 703. It's day time, and the ceiling is at 600 AGL. Can you legally do this VFR since you can stay above 300 AGL and not hit clouds, or, would you need a ceiling of at least 800 ft (i.e. 300 ft + 500 ft vertical separation required under CAR 600s)?

Also, in the standards for 723 and 724 it states that to operate off air routes in uncontrolled airspace you need at least 2000 ft above the highest obstacle within 10sm for night time, and 1000 ft & 3sm by day (also, vfr flight viz cannot be below 3sm). I interpret this as saying that you cannot take credit for the 300 AGL/500 AGL limits if you are in uncontrolled airspace and operating off of designated air routes. Is this correct?

Thanks in advance.

giligan · Post by **giligan** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:09 pm

C-HRIS, better check your OPS manual, you are not approved to fly at 300'. You must stay at 500'. To answer your question, you have to be clear of cloud and a vis of 2 miles ( someone feel free to tell me different ) by day and 3 at night. But I'm sure of the 500' thing. It is now allabout OPS SPECS, everything you need to live by is in the OPS MAnual.
cheers.
gil

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:26 pm

Do float planes fly in weather below 300 feet and with vis below 2 miles on the west coast?

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:38 pm

Thanks giligan for the response. I was just reviewing the ops manual though (not sure if you still have access too it, but section 3.4 states that the VFR operating requirements for 703 are 300 AGL... 3.3 deals with 704 and states 500 AGL is the limit, which is consistent with the CARs). Also, section 3.5.1 deals with the standards in uncontrolled airspace when operating off of published air routes (i.e. the 2000ft and 10sm, 1000 ft and 3sm. The instance where the off air routes standards seems to apply might be when you're operating between YOH and YGO, ZGI and ZTM, YST and YIV, etc (i.e. there's no published air routes on the LO charts). But I'm guessing that I am overlooking something or misinterpreting the manual/CARs.

Dockjock · Post by **Dockjock** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:39 pm

Is that a rhetorical question?

[note: rhetorical question]

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:43 pm

Cat Driver wrote:Do float planes fly in weather below 300 feet and with vis below 2 miles on the west coast?

Dockjock wrote:Is that a rhetorical question?

[note: rhetorical question]

rofl

wait for it

...
...

maybe it's float plane's that need their own set of reg's!!! I'm just joking, please don't fire.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:54 pm

............further to rehtorical, I have been out of the Canadian loop for the past ten years regs wise.

Can I start another float plane charter business and sit down and write my own ops specs that allow me to fly in a 100 foot ceiling with foward vis of 2 miles over glassy water?

I am truly out of the loop here in Canada but am interested in how things work these days.

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:00 pm

Cat Driver wrote:............further to rehtorical, I have been out of the Canadian loop for the past ten years regs wise.

Can I start another float plane charter business and sit down and write my own ops specs that allow me to fly in a 100 foot ceiling with foward vis of 2 miles over glassy water?

I am truly out of the loop here in Canada but am interested in how things work these days.

according to the float plane ops i've talked to out here, the answer would be no. according to regs, could only take off out of campbell river about once every third a blue moon. I'm sure i'll be corrected if i'm wrong! "our" plane crashed illegally!!!

CD · Post by CD » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:01 pm

Cat Driver wrote:Can I start another float plane charter business and sit down and write my own ops specs...

Nope. But here is the list of those that you can apply for:

AOC Operations Specifications

Of course, the website hasn't been updated in a few years it seems... Hmmmmm...

ragbagflyer · Post by **ragbagflyer** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:03 pm

It's funny. When I am in weather where the ceilings are getting low, I'm thinking more along the lines of; do I know where I am going, is the ceiling going up or down, how well do I know the area, can I turn around, what are my other options. I'm a lot less concerned with things like part 703, 723, 769 etc. Is the ceiling 501 feet or 499ft, 301 or 299ft? Who gives a shit. It's a better time to be putting your judgement and piloting skills to the test then to be quoting the CARS. Also, most of the time the ceilings and vis are whatever you as PIC say they are.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:14 pm

Now I know I am due for psychiatric help.....

.....CD....I'm gonna bust your balls if I ever get the chance, because I suddenly came to my senses when I got to standards 723:23 and realized you had tricked me into reading CAR's when I should be working on my Cub....

.....GGrrrrr.....

giligan · Post by **giligan** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:59 pm

Ragbagflyer, I'm sure C-HRIS isn't flying in 300 foot ceilings right now. When he was he was probably thinking along your lines. Right now he is doing his best to be a concientious pilot. He wants to be sure what the rules are for next time. Few of us are blessed with the ability to be right all the time...even if we are the PIC.

C-HRIS, no I don't have access to it. The way it works is, the entire CARS section pertaining to that ops spec is there. Then you have to look at the fine print in the ops spec to see what pertains to the specific operation. You have to jump around abit though.
There is a section in table form stating the minimum weather requirements and for the type. IE SW3 704 and SW3 703 as well as AC680 703 etc. If I remember correctly, you can fly VFR OTT in the BE55 but not in the SW3. I had the exact same question as yourself around 7 years ago. On the way back to Winnipeg, the Captain said "well lets look it up". The answer was 500' minimum.

But by all means find it for yourself, things change.
gil

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:03 pm

be like preuss, interpret the CARs as suits your current need

giligan · Post by **giligan** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:04 pm

I suppose I should add, you're not .. running if you're within the letter of the law. The weather really doesn't have to be very good to fly VFR. Sometimes, (legally) a guy flying VFR can get into a place when a guy flying IFR cannot.

example VFR from YGO to YOH, and someone going IFR into YOH. The IFR mins are alot higher than the VFR mins.

As for the 2000 feet thing, to me that sounds like the mins inside a control zone, I must not be familliar with that

ragbagflyer · Post by **ragbagflyer** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:10 pm

Giligan, I have no problem with C-HRIS's query, but my point is that in the .., the CARS mean nothing. The rules have no bearing on if the situation is safe. Vis and ceilings could be above minumums and it could be a no go, or they could be WAY below the minimums and things can be A-OK.

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:16 pm

Wait a Sec

there's rules on this

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:19 pm

. for the win!

I thought you got nosebleeds above 500ft??!?!?

Flychicka · Post by **Flychicka** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:05 pm

I think its states in the ops manual the 703 300' AGL limit, and 500' for 704 day, 1000' agl night. However, these are superseeded by a memo stating that no A/C shall be operated at an altitude of less than 500'ft agl at any time other than take off or landing. So, you are right about what it states in the ops manual.. last I checked it hadn't been updated yet with regards to the 500' limit. From what I have gathered, since you are below 1000' agl, you must only remain clear of cloud, no need for the 500' vert separation. 703 or 704, 500' or above and giv'er. Hope that helps...

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:54 pm

Well,

Regardless of what the "book" may say, there are those of us who make our living in weather under those limits, as . so eloquently stated....

Certain parts of this country require it, if one wants to accomplish anything at all. Airplane on wheels, floats, helicopters you name it, we're all out there in the crap. VFR limits are a funny thing, when Mother Nature decides she's going lower, so do you, end of story.

STL

Offset · Post by **Offset** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:08 pm

To add more fuel to the fire, what about the Float operators who believe that they don't have to follow 500 (or 300') AGL when the are flying over water because they are over "water" not "ground". I only bring this up as I have had this B.S told to me by a Chief Pilot at an operator I used to work for.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:20 pm

" To add more fuel to the fire, what about the Float operators who believe that they don't have to follow 500 (or 300') AGL when the are flying over water because they are over "water" not "ground". I only bring this up as I have had this B.S told to me by a Chief Pilot at an operator I used to work for. "

Are you saying it is illegal to fly a float plane below 300 feet over water?

In that case there are a lot of us who have been illegal thousands of times flying in the float plane world.

Offset · Post by **Offset** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:35 pm

My interpertation of the CARS is that you can only operate below minimum altitudes for the purpose of take-off and landing, not to say it is never done or even unsafe under certain conditions. I should have also been more specific with my initial post, the below 300' or 500' was trying to justify sending pilots out with the weather at 100' and <1 mile vis.

Axial Flow · Post by **Axial Flow** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:02 pm

It's like everything else, if you do it don't get caught

C-HRIS who is gonna be able to argue with you between YTH-YIV that you were down to 500 let alone 300 feet en-route as long as its VFRish when you get to the destination ? Legal,Safe, Probable ? Then Giver

If its 400 feet and a mile and you get a special to leave Thompson and its worse en-route...then evolution hasn't worked fast enough, who cares if its legal.

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:30 am

I wonder if they'll start using FLIR and other such synthetic vision systems in 703/704 ops ever? or is it far too cost prohibitive?

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:34 am

Offset wrote:My interpertation of the CARS is that you can only operate below minimum altitudes for the purpose of take-off and landing, not to say it is never done or even unsafe under certain conditions. I should have also been more specific with my initial post, the below 300' or 500' was trying to justify sending pilots out with the weather at 100' and <1 mile vis.

Well if you're down at 100' or below and less than a mile vis. in most cases I believe you're looking for a good spot to put it down. Hence the take-off and landing portion! I've been there..

".. Running"

".. Running"

500 and below