Near Miss

[I'd Rather Be Flying]

More than likely, most pilots have experienced this problem:

What's with pilot's who report over one location and then are inevitably flying in another location?!! I had a near miss late yesterday afternoon because somebody either didn't care to report location and altitude properly (or not at all), or transmitted inaccurately.

I'd like to punch the pilot of that airplane because they almost caused an accident. Thankfully I kept my eyes outside and was able to spot the culprit just in time.

Just because they say they're there, does not mean that they are necessarily there!

Fly safe!!

[Jet Dog]

I find after I transmit my location,.... I'm no longer at that spot, I just get further and further away...I think theres a problem with my plane....

[ndb]

Anyone who flies VFR and relies on a radio is heading for trouble.

Not all aircraft have radios - yes, that's perfectly legal. Yours may die someday, too. The electrical system in your aircraft is probably 30 years old.

Plus, when it gets real busy, and you need the radio the most, is when it's least likely to work - transmissions get stepped on (love that squealing), mike buttons get stuck, etc.

Use your eyeballs, especially where there are unnatural concentrations of
aircraft, such as the extended runway centerline, and VORs.

[oldtimer]

This happened to me. IFR in VFR on approach to CYLW. Tower is jabbering to somebody about calling over the turkey farm or some dumb place and join downwind. I'm on approach in the turbo dildo and join the party late. We get a TCAS TA. (TCAS 1). Can't find the traffic but a climbing right turn turns the TA off. Finally, we spot the traffic, a single otter downwind, to the left and below us but close enough that TCAS did not like it. Tower never mentioned it to us because the otter pilot had us in sight. The TCAS screamed it's timely warning and I'm peed off. No danger to us but if Tower had mentioned the traffic, we would not have been surprised about the TCAS warning. It only takes milliseconds before you fall in love with TCAS.

[BAH!!!]

Speaking of near misses, check these videos out. Pretty wild stuff.
Be sure to watch the last one and listen to how poorly the ATC deals with the situation.

-you'll need real player to load them.

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2000/incursi ... _video.htm

[twinpratts]

Tell me about it! Those morons who don't turn on their transponders in uncontrolled Air Space... the world doesn't revolve around you- we need your transponder on for the TCAS to work!

[. .]

damn, i hate realplayer.

[CAL]

What are the parameters on the typical tcas system?...I mean how far away.....etc.

I dont have one:) I guess when you only do 100kts you have some time to alter course

[ndb]

You are not legally required under VFR in uncontrolled airspace to turn on the transponder. I personally know several pilots who do not turn their transponders on when they don't have to so Transport can't use it against them.

[CAL]

I watched the videos.....I cant believe the controller....its bad enough that the crew in the 57 are lost...but they also cant see. She was just blasting everyone, that doesnt help. I have never heard a controller in Canada conduct themself like that....does anyone else find that disturbing?...or funny

[jimmyjazz]

about the transponder thing in uncontrolled airspace you need to remember that if your on a uncontrolled air route there could be alot of vfr around even if you are ifr example ywg yrl. When I was in this area of our 7 ac only one had a transponder and one was nordo (most of the time). On a related note alot of bush guys get annoyed when someone makes a call that they are x miles west of some airport thinking that they should know all the lakes. But we need to remember that their maps don't have lakes and they don't make 20 or 30 mile hops they are just trying to help us out especially when they make their calls on 22.8 since it's not even an official frequency.

[Right Seat Captain]

My favorite calls to hear when I'm VFR is "This is XXX currently 86.4 miles East of Montreal." That's really useful to me with my VNC that has Montreal on another fold.

[RB211]

You are not legally required under VFR in uncontrolled airspace to turn on the transponder. I personally know several pilots who do not turn their transponders on when they don't have to so Transport can't use it against them.

The flip side of that, of course, is a TCAS equipped a/c can't 'see' you with it turned off. I guess then if you become a pile of smoking wreckage you don't care what TC says/does.

[ndb]

If it's ok to fly an aircraft without a transponder (like a cub that has no electrical system, or maybe an ultralight) why is it not ok to fly a 172 down in the weeds with the transponder turned off? What's the difference? Either way there's no transponder.

If I understand you correctly, you are implictly proposing that every aircraft in Canada must have a transponder/encoder and of course an electrical system to feed it power. You're going to be really popular with the antique, gilder and ultralight guys.

Are you aware of the systemic limitations of mode C? It simply breaks down under heavy load. For example, the NOTAM for KOSH during the last week of July, which has probably the highest traffic density in the world, specifies "mode C off".

When you most need them, your fancys toys are going to break down.

Do you remember the mode S implementation disaster 10 years or so ago? Mode C is a piece of junk that they tried to get rid of, and couldn't.

[RB211]

If it's ok to fly an aircraft without a transponder (like a cub that has no electrical system, or maybe an ultralight) why is it not ok to fly a 172 down in the weeds with the transponder turned off? What's the difference? Either way there's no transponder. ...

.

The difference is choosing not to use a piece of kit that could be of great benefit as opposed to not having one.

Certainly everything has its limitations, but I found it very helpful to fit a faster moving DH8 into a traffic pattern with said 172's when I could 'see' them on TCAS b4 I had visual contact.

I did not say every a/c should have a transponder, please don't put words in my mouth. By your argument, why not turn off your radio, some a/c don't have them anyway?

[Cat Driver]

I am appalled at the ignorance that is evident in this discussion.

I certainly hope that anyone who thinks that having a working transponder and does not turn it on is not a licenced pilot.

And if you are of the mind set that stealthing to avoid detection is the way to go I would not want to be in your airspace.

Cat Driver:

[Right Seat Captain]

I am appalled at the ignorance that is evident in this discussion.

I certainly hope that anyone who thinks that having a working transponder and does not turn it on is not a licenced pilot.

And if you are of the mind set that stealthing to avoid detection is the way to go I would not want to be in your airspace.

Cat Driver:

I absoluitely agree. But if your transponder is not working, ie reading 500 feet off, or it's certification is out of date, you should keep it on mode A.

[Disco Stu]

The transponder thing is especially important in YTH where the radar is secondary surveillance ONLY. If you are inbound IFR, YWG centre can't even advise you of VFR traffic if they don't have their transponders on.

Skyward's piston single's and various choppers are guilty of this!

[ndb]

Somebody please explain what is the externally-visible difference between no transponder, and a turned-off one?

If people feel so strongly about the necessity of a functioning transponder, they must logically then think that the people flying without one pose as great a danger as someone who turns theirs off, because the effect is exactly the same.

Your opinions contradicts the regulations, which do not require transponders to be turned on, or even to be installed.

High tech toys are great, but becoming dependent upon them is most definitely not.

[RB211]

Somebody please explain what is the externally-visible difference between no transponder, and a turned-off one?

If people feel so strongly about the necessity of a functioning transponder, they must logically then think that the people flying without one pose as great a danger as someone who turns theirs off, because the effect is exactly the same.

Your opinions contradicts the regulations, which do not require transponders to be turned on, or even to be installed.

High tech toys are great, but becoming dependent upon them is most definitely not.

There is no external difference.

The 'danger' is the same. However, if your a/c is not so equipped you are not choosing to be less visible to other a/c.

Just because the regs don't mandate the use of one, is an ignorant excuse for not using it if it is functional. It is an added safety feature.

Yes high tech equipment is great, but using it as an enhancement tool is not the same as dependence.

I have to ask what someone is doing that has them concerned TC will use the transponder info against them. They must either be intentionally violating the regs or just too ignorant of them to know they are in violation.

[I'd Rather Be Flying]

The majority of flying that I do is in uncontrolled airspace. When I'm out flying I always have the transponder turned on and I teach my students to do the same (and explain to them why it is important).

[RB211]

Good job, IRBF.

ndb: Instead of trying to argue with you why I think one shold be using the transponder, maybe you can just provide a good logical reason why one shouldn't be using it. ( Other than, it is not required, of course.)

Failing that, perhaps we can get you hooked up with 'I'd Rather be Flying' for some instruction on airmanship.

[sakism]

Flying without your transponder on is stupid.

It's like the people you see driving around with just their fog lights on - What the hell? Are they saving gas?

However, I think the point that others are trying to make is that there are people who assume that their TCAS will alert them to any aircraft. They don't seem to realize that some aircraft don't have transponders. I have even had another aircraft advise us that our transponder was not working - they hadn't even considered that we might not have one.

Complacency on this issue is just as, if not more, dangerous than not turning your transponder on. Use your eyes - that's what we've got them for.

[ndb]

I presume it has not occurred to anyone here that sometimes, people own aircraft. Those people make decisions about their aircraft, for example about what equipment and avionics they install.

Have I lost anyone yet? I''ll try not to tire your lips out too much.

If am to understand the rocket scientists here, they think it's ok for a guy who owns say a 172 to not install a transponder and encoder.

But if he does install a transponder and encoder, he's some sort of reckless criminal if he doesn't leave it on all the time, so the airline pilots don't have to bother looking out the window, and can make smartass remarks to ATC about "got 'em on the fishfinder!"

The result either way is exactly same, and perfectly legal: the owner/pilot decides whether or not he wants to transmit mode C info.

Your position is inconsistent, and is in contradiction with the regulations.

[Right Seat Captain]

ndb, perhaps you missed the Airmanship class when you got your pilot's licence, if you have one. Regardless of what the regs say, its always a good idea to practise good airmanship. If turning on a transponder installed in your aircraft makes you safer, as well as those around you, why not turn it on. Do yuo have a reason for NOT turning it on?

Sure everyone should still be looking out, but what if you miss it? Too bad you don't have the transponder as a backup to help you find the aircraft you can't see below you. And I for one do not wish to add unnecessary risk to my own life in a C172, for no good reason, nor do I wish to add risk to the 300 innocent passengers on board an airline.

I'm not saying install a transponder in every aircraft, but please explain why you wouldn't turn yours on if you have one installed?