Air Canada vs. Westjet

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Air Canada vs Westjet - Which is the all around better airline?

Air Canada
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49%
Westjet
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Total votes: 193

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complexintentions
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Post by complexintentions »

Nah, WestJet still sucks. Small airplanes and evidently, small minds...comparing WestJet's fleet, routes, size, and overall history to Air Canada's is sorta like pretending there's some similarities between an elephant and a pig....well, they both have four feet...:smt017

"Tony's just mad his company is losing"....G zuz....if this is the sort of brilliance on the flight deck at WJ that's pretty painful...believe me, out here in the Rest of the World (ie the industry outside of Canada) no one has heard or gives a rats ass about WestJet...strangely, there is no sense of anticipation that they are about to take over AC's status as ad hoc flag carrier any time soon...you guys embarass the majority of pilots at WestJet who are actually really good guys/girls. My sneaking suspicion is that the majority of WJ rah-rah'ers here are 19 year old cabin crew from Fort Mac. Get all empowered with your bad selves, no one cares.

I never had any desire to work for AC, but the pro-WestJet posts are cringe-worthy enough to validate my decision long ago to never even bother applying....
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Post by KAG »

For what it's worth...I just spoke to a guy who used to work for WJ, then moved on to Emeriates flying the 777. Lasted 2 years and couldn't handle it any more, and is now working for AC. He told me that leaving WJ was the biggest mistake he has made in his career.

To each their own...
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Post by bobcaygeon »

KAG
You left out the fact that he had a choice to come back to canada to work for Westjet too and was going too but then AC called.
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Donald
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Post by Donald »

And similarly if you go to WJ, find you don't like it as well for some reason, and then the industry tanks....will you say leaving Borek was your biggest mistake?

As you say, to each their own...

Edit to add: I'm not slagging you either, just looking at it from another POV
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Post by Huge Hammer »

Nah, WestJet still sucks. Small airplanes and evidently, small minds...comparing WestJet's fleet, routes, size, and overall history to Air Canada's is sorta like pretending there's some similarities between an elephant and a pig....well, they both have four feet...
Great comparison between the pig and the elephant. Let's see...Elephants are endangered pretty much everywhere and on the brink of extinction, pigs...not so much.
believe me, out here in the Rest of the World (ie the industry outside of Canada) no one has heard or gives a rats ass about WestJet...
Yes we should all believe you on this based on what?? BA seems to have heard of WS, China Airlines seems to have heard of WestJet, of course I would rather believe you.
Get all empowered with your bad selves, no one cares.
Please keep that atitude. Keep your head in the sand and maybe WestJet will go away.

Aren't elephants scared of mice?[/quote]
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2low
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Post by 2low »

Westjet? Nah. I still happy at Jazz. Doesn't mean I have to love big Blue.
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Post by Flightlevels »

bobcaygeon wrote:KAG
You left out the fact that he had a choice to come back to canada to work for Westjet too and was going too but then AC called.
there's a bit more to the story that the average joe doesn't know
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KAG
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Post by KAG »

bobcaygeon wrote:KAG
You left out the fact that he had a choice to come back to canada to work for Westjet too and was going too but then AC called.
This is true, but in his own words, It would spoil the whole experience going back at the bottom of the list knowing he left as he was going CPT (I can understand that). So he figured he'd give AC a shot. AC has faster upgrades, and you can make more money, so in some ways AC is a better oppertunity. I know I'll be content at WJ (even as a decade FO) and most likely happier. But thats just my opinion. To each their own...now where's that koolaid :lol:

Donald, if leaving borek gets me where I want to go, then it wasn't a mistake, just a painful parting, but one that had to be done.
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Post by Dark Helmet »

Wow, after all this we are at 50/50. I guess in a nutshell it all comes down to: What do you like to drink? Coke or Pepsi. I don't neccessarily think one is better that the other, just depends on ones preference :lol:
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Four1oh
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Post by Four1oh »

in keeping with the thread intent, which is pitting AC vs WJ, I thought I'd add this Financial Post article that Chris Sorenson wrote today:


WestJet's lower costs help in battle against Air Canada
WestJet Airlines Ltd. (WJA/TSX) boss Clive Beddoe has long had a favourite saying: “He who has the lowest costs wins.”

Now, at least one analyst seems to agree.

While rival Air Canada doesn’t dispute that its cost base is higher than WestJet’s, Air Canada’s (ACa/TSX) executives, including Robert Milton, the CEO of parent ACE Aviation Holdings Inc. (ACEa/TSX), have maintained that the former flag carrier enjoys a significant “revenue premium” over its competitor which more than makes up for the difference.

That includes the extra money that comes from selling pricey business-class seats, flying fuller planes, receiving international feeds from its Star Alliance partners, offering a bigger and better network and charging extra for things like in-flight meals, blankets and pillows.

But Cameron Doerksen, an analyst with Versant Partners, argues in a research note that “the facts, unfortunately, do not bear this out.”

He says that WestJet’s cost per seat mile — an industry measure of how much it costs to fly one seat one mile — is “at least” 25% lower than Air Canada’s, meaning that “Air Canada has to generate a significant unit revenue premium.”

Mr. Doerksen initiated coverage this week on Air Canada, which was partially spun off from ACE last year, with a “hold” rating and $21.50 target.

Chris Sorensen
csorensen@nationalpost.com
http://communities.canada.com/nationalp ... anada.aspx
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tonysoprano
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Post by tonysoprano »

Four1oh.
That's all true. I would never argue that. Of course I hope they are comparing strickly our our Emb and/or A320 flying to yours, otherwise we're back to apples and oranges. I would also be curious to see the difference, if any, in what your costs were, say five years ago compared to what they are now.
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Post by CanadaEH »

That's all true. I would never argue that. Of course I hope they are comparing strickly our our Emb and/or A320 flying to yours, otherwise we're back to apples and oranges. I would also be curious to see the difference, if any, in what your costs were, say five years ago compared to what they are now.
Who cares what aircraft type they are comparing? Air Canada's unit costs are spread out across the entire fleet from the EMB to the 340. The larger the aircraft, the lower the unit costs but the smaller the aircraft, the higher the unit costs. Apples to apples, my friend.

A *ahem* individual that follows WJ meticulously I'm sure will fill you in on the CASM gap between AC and WS. :wink:
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tonysoprano
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Post by tonysoprano »

Why would you compare what it costs to fly an A340 compared to a 737? It's a bigger airplane, consumes more fuel, has more crew, more maintenance costs, doesn't even fly the same routes etc... Could we make the same reasonable comparison with Georgian or Jazz? More importantly, if you don't fly that equipment, how do I know what it would cost you? Also, I wonder if the other expenses are taken into account. Sure takes alot of effort to keep some 26000 worldwide employees "happy". We make more revenue but also incur alot of expenses. That's the disadvantage of AC. We cannot be as efficient as WJ. Just efficient enough. Even salary cuts, refinancing and a leaner workforce won't do it. We would have to do much more to be as efficient as you and I'd rather stay where we're at, frankly. But if you compare us to other legacy carriers, I think you'll see more reasonable numbers. I'm finding it somewhat difficult to make an apples to apples comparison right across the board. Help me see the light, Eh.
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Post by CanadaEH »

Why would you compare what it costs to fly an A340 compared to a 737? It's a bigger airplane, consumes more fuel, has more crew, more maintenance costs, doesn't even fly the same routes etc... Could we make the same reasonable comparison with Georgian or Jazz?
Because that's how the industry calculates CASM? On routes where WJ flies, AC flies DH8's, CRJ's, EMB's, 320's, 67's, 330's, and 340's. Don't believe me? I can list them if you'd like. :D
More importantly, if you don't fly that equipment, how do I know what it would cost you?
Publicly filed documents called quarterly/annual reports. You might have heard of them. :lol:
Also, I wonder if the other expenses are taken into account. Sure takes alot of effort to keep some 26000 worldwide employees "happy". We make more revenue but also incur alot of expenses. That's the disadvantage of AC. We cannot be as efficient as WJ. Just efficient enough. Even salary cuts, refinancing and a leaner workforce won't do it.
See, this was the point I was trying to make in this same thread. The restructuring of Air Canada into ACE and chopping up the pieces into separate entities is great for unlocking shareholder value but it sure doesn't help AC if there's another significant incident that launches our industry back into the funk it was in after 9/11 and SARS. With higher costs and lower margins than WS, AC is in a worse position if this industry sees a downturn. By the same token it could also benefit significantly more given its much larger revenue base if the industry remains the same or grows.
But if you compare us to other legacy carriers, I think you'll see more reasonable numbers. I'm finding it somewhat difficult to make an apples to apples comparison right across the board.
Comparing costs of a LCC to a legacy carrier is apples to apples; both are in the business of flying people from A to B. WJ competes with AC the same way Southwest competes with American and Virgin Blue competes with Qantas.
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tonysoprano
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Post by tonysoprano »

Because that's how the industry calculates CASM? On routes where WJ flies, AC flies DH8's, CRJ's, EMB's, 320's, 67's, 330's, and 340's. Don't believe me? I can list them if you'd like.
This is exactly why I can't buy what you're selling. Let's compare comparable aircraft, not widebodies to narrowbdy or Dash8s to 737s. Your economics take a swath across the fleet wherein your advantage lies a one type operation.
Publicly filed documents called quarterly/annual reports. You might have heard of them.

Ok. So what is WJ's cost of running a B767 or an A340?

With higher costs and lower margins than WS, AC is in a worse position if this industry sees a downturn. By the same token it could also benefit significantly more given its much larger revenue base if the industry remains the same or grows.
OK(?) We'll see.
Comparing costs of a LCC to a legacy carrier is apples to apples; both are in the business of flying people from A to B. WJ competes with AC the same way Southwest competes with American and Virgin Blue competes with Qantas.
Ya I kinda figured that but my point still remains that two models should be compared with caution. Would you think it's fair to compare the local chain of restaurants to Mcdonalds? Sure you can make comparisons, but I wouldn't put my money on the local chain just because it has lower costs. Hey, in the end, we are saying the same thing, sorta, I guess, maybe... :lol:
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Post by CanadaEH »

WESTJET HAS EDGE OVER AIR CANADA, VERSANT SAYS

WestJet Airlines Ltd. (WJA/TSX) boss Clive Beddoe has long had a favourite saying: "He who has the lowest costs wins."

Now, at least one analyst seems to agree.


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Font: ****While rival Air Canada doesn't dispute that its cost base is higher than WestJet's, Air Canada's executives, including Robert Milton, the CEO of parent ACE Aviation Holdings Inc. (ACEa/TSX), have maintained that the former flag carrier enjoys a significant "revenue premium" over its competitor that more than makes up for the difference.

That includes the extra money that comes from selling pricey business-class seats, flying fuller planes, receiving international feeds from its Star Alliance partners, offering a bigger and better network and charging extra for things like in-flight meals, blankets and pillows.

But Cameron Doerksen, an analyst with Versant Partners, argues in a research note that "the facts, unfortunately, do not bear this out."

He says that WestJet's cost per seat mile -- an industry measure of how much it costs to fly one seat one mile--is "at least" 25% lower than Air Canada's, meaning that "Air Canada has to generate a significant unit revenue premium."

But while Mr. Doerksen concedes that Air Canada's yield, or revenue per passenger mile, is higher than WestJet's mainly because business passengers are less price sensitive, he argues that the difference is not enough to make Air Canada more profitable.

He also argues that WestJet is competitive when it comes to load factors -- a measure of how well an airline fills its planes -- despite Air Canada's use of a hub-and-spoke system and multiple aircraft types, which allows it to better match plane sizes to route traffic.

Citing third-quarter performance, Mr. Doerksen notes that WestJet's margin on earnings before tax was 16% compared to Air Canada's at 6%, stripping out one- time items.

"Thus there really is no comparison because WestJet's profitability is and has been significantly higher than Air Canada's," he wrote.

"In our view, greater profitability means that WestJet can continue to erode Air Canada's market share in domestic and transborder markets without having to significantly sacrifice its earnings."

Mr. Doerksen began coverage this week on Air Canada (ACa/ TSX), which was partially spun off from ACE last year, with a "hold" rating and $21.50 target.

Chris Sorensen

csorensen@nationalpost.com
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Post by CanadaEH »

This is exactly why I can't buy what you're selling. Let's compare comparable aircraft, not widebodies to narrowbdy or Dash8s to 737s. Your economics take a swath across the fleet wherein your advantage lies a one type operation.


You don't get it, tony. WS competes against AC on routes where it flies every type of aircraft in its fleet. We can break it down route by route, distance by distance, aircraft type by aircraft type, but that's where you lose me because I have no idea how to calculate costs that minutely. I'm not the one that decides how CASM is calculated, I'm just telling you how it is.
Ok. So what is WJ's cost of running a B767 or an A340?
I don't understand your logic. Why are you asking me the hypothetical costs of WJ flying an aircraft type it doesn't have?
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tonysoprano
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Post by tonysoprano »

I don't understand your logic. Why are you asking me the hypothetical costs of WJ flying an aircraft type it doesn't have?
CanadaEh.
My point was, if both companies had the same airplanes, like say back when AC and Canadian were competing, the costs could be directly compared. I was getting the impression that your costs are going to be the same no matter what you fly. I fully understand the industry's use of CASM and how we are all compared. My point remains that being two different models, it makes the comparison less useful. In the broader sense, when and if WJ or anyone else provides the service AC does, it would be interesting to see how they would manage costs. As an example, Jet Airways of India (an LCC) has decided to go global with widebodies. The initial results are not good as they are apparantly finding it a very different ball game using the same model. I'm not suggesting this would happen to WJ, but it does show how a change in service provided could be big problems in cost. Cost is something AC has been working on since CCAA and I would suggest that either our model is changing or we are becoming more efficient as a traditional model. ATW magazine alluded to this recently. I guess I'm looking at the bigger picture when I say apples and oranges or mangos and.....
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Post by RB-211 »

I think you will find that operating profit (as a %) is the key these days. Regardless of size ort stature a companies success is based on the bottomg line. Period.

AC's margains are not great where as WJ's are and will continue to be. Legacy carriers tend to operate at lower numbers but the trends are heading in the other direction. Make money or get pushed aside and let someone else so it.

Apples and oranges for sure but the writing is on the wall. If I was stupid enough to invest my cake in aviation, I know where I would not put it.

Prediction:

AC and/or WJ will be swallowed up in the next three years. Consolidation is the next big thing in aviation. You did not hear it here first.
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Four1oh
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Post by Four1oh »

Swallowed by none other than US legacy carriers?? I can't think of anyone else you could mean.
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Post by tonysoprano »

Guys.
That's what all the experts are predicting but if you look at what's happening down south re USAir and Delta, it may not be so easy if the governments have anything to do with it. On the other hand Canadian was "saved" by the government.

(A's and O's.)
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Post by General Ripper »

"Yes we should all believe you on this based on what?? BA seems to have heard of WS, China Airlines seems to have heard of WestJet, of course I would rather believe you."
HH,
What does China Airlines have to do with anything?
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Post by Huge Hammer »

What does China Airlines have to do with anything?
WS currently moves their guests from YVR.
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Post by RB-211 »

410,

The inverstor could be an obvious candidate or someone out of left field. The Qantas deal caught many by surprise and pointed out that mergers/buyouts etc may or may not involve other carriers. Consolidation is the corporate trend these days and airlines are not immune. As trade barries fall, old agreements expire and the global econmy expands, its only a matter of time.
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Post by 2low »

Canada's WestJet flies high

Wednesday, January 24, 2007
By Susan Carey, The Wall Street Journal

WestJet Airlines Ltd. may be the best airline stock you've never heard of.

The fast-growing Canadian carrier has borrowed tricks from U.S. discounters like Southwest Airlines Co. and JetBlue Airways Corp. to deliver the best operating margins in North America in the first nine months of 2006.

WestJet Airlines, based in Calgary, Alberta, has traded on the Toronto Stock Exchange since 1999. Its shares have risen 60 percent since last summer and many analysts expect strong fourth-quarter results. The company plans to report results next month. Cheaper fuel and growth opportunities to destinations in the U.S. and beyond might also make the shares attractive to some investors.

In trading Tuesday, WestJet's shares closed at C$14.48, down 12 Canadian cents.

For investors who have been burned by volatility in the U.S. airline industry in the past few years, WestJet may offer a more straightforward choice. The small Canadian air market -- fewer than 64 million total passengers in 2005, compared with 656 million in the U.S. -- has two main players, with ACE Aviation Holdings Inc.'s Air Canada controlling 60 percent of the domestic capacity compared with WestJet's 30 percent. The rest is split among smaller players.

For U.S. investors thinking of hopping on board, WestJet says about 7 percent of its 129 million shares outstanding are held by foreigners, primarily U.S. mutual funds and investment banks.

"There's a lot of excitement in the U.S. about consolidation," says Ben Cherniavsky, a Raymond James Ltd. analyst in Vancouver. "In Canada, we're miles ahead. Eight airlines have failed and we're down to two, a virtual duopoly."

Mr. Cherniavsky, who doesn't own any WestJet shares, last month raised his earnings estimates and rating on the stock to "strong buy" from "outperform," citing robust traffic, encouraging yield trends and the buoyant economy in Western Canada.

WestJet, with a current market capitalization of C$1.87 billion ($1.58 billion), has been consistently profitable and its revenue has soared from C$332.5 million in 2000 to nearly C$1.4 billion in 2005. Its rare 2004 loss was due to a writedown related to its retirement of older aircraft.

WestJet currently trades at 13 times estimated per-share earnings for 2007. That is cheaper than Southwest's price/earnings ratio of 16.2 and JetBlue's 33, but richer than ACE's 11.5, according to CIBC World Markets.

The failure of two smaller Canadian airlines and problems that led to Air Canada's bankruptcy filing in 2003 helped clear WestJet's route. Its earnings peaked that year at C$60.5 million. Air Canada, however, emerged the following year with less debt, lower costs and a new pricing and service strategy, and is now giving WestJet more of a run for its money.

While WestJet's unit costs still are significantly lower than Air Canada's, the bigger flag carrier can charge more per seat because of its more extensive schedule, destinations and premium service.

Michael Linenberg, a Merrill Lynch analyst in New York who has WestJet at a "buy," notes that the company's third-quarter operating margin of 19 percent, up from 15.5 percent in the prior-year quarter, handily beat the margins of 10 other mostly U.S. carriers that he follows.

He expects WestJet to earn C$0.65 to C$0.80 per share for 2006 and C$0.90 for 2007 on double-digit capacity increases and only minimal unit cost growth, excluding fuel. Mr. Linenberg doesn't own the stock and Merrill doesn't do business with WestJet.

The company was founded in 1994 by four Calgary businessmen who wondered why in a deregulated Canada there were no start-ups like Southwest. They decided to "replicate the Southwest model and Canadian-ize it," says Clive Beddoe, a real-estate investor and owner of a plastics company who now is the carrier's chairman and chief executive.

The founders got help from David Neeleman, a U.S. airline entrepreneur who co-founded discounter Morris Air, sold it to Southwest and later went on to launch JetBlue. Mr. Neelemen, a WestJet investor and director for five years, says he helped the Canadians raise money, buy aircraft and copy Southwest's efficiencies.

The low-cost airline took off from Calgary in 1996 using a single type of aircraft. Unlike Southwest, WestJet offers assigned seating, sells meals on board and, for a fee, offers passengers -- who are called "guests" -- access to airport lounges at three domestic airports. Its employees aren't unionized and receive profit-sharing awards based on the company's pretax profit margin.

After WestJet saw JetBlue's success with its seatback television service, it secured the Canadian license for the service from JetBlue. WestJet has installed the TVs on all of its new Boeing Co. 737-700s and -800s, and the remaining 13 smaller 737-600s in the fleet should be outfitted by fall, Mr. Beddoe says.

Starting from its base in Western Canada, WestJet now serves 23 domestic airports, including the largest cities coast to coast. Last week, the company said it plans to add three more Eastern Canada cities in May for the summer season.

In 2005, the carrier began scheduled flights from Toronto to Fort Myers, Fla., and Vancouver to Honolulu and Maui. This winter, 17 percent of its capacity is deployed to the U.S. Sunbelt and Nassau, the Bahamas. The trans-border market, currently 4 percent of its annual business, is the carrier's biggest growth opportunity, Mr. Beddoe says. He says he wants to increase that to 20 percent to 25 percent of its traffic.

A belated upgrade to its reservation system -- the carrier recently bailed out of a problem-plagued plan to switch to a different system altogether -- should allow WestJet by May to distribute its tickets on U.S. Internet travel sites, increasing its exposure south of the border.

Later, it should have the ability to sell connections to overseas airlines. That could pave the way for WestJet to join a global airline marketing alliance. :twisted:
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