I am about to leave a job where I signed a training bond. I did not think it was a big deal at the time because I had planned on staying with the company for the 2 years they required. I am 8 months into the job and they may want to recoup 50% of the training costs (50%= $4700). I was not required to pay the cost upfront.
I have often heard that these bonds are not legal. Does anyone know if there any truth to this?
Thanks
Legality of Training Bonds?
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water wings
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Cat Driver
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It used to be a persons word was their bond.
Unfortunately in aviation far to many pilots will break their bond if they think they can get a bigger airplane.
Therefore the money bond.
If a pilot wishes to leave for a bigger airplane or better position then the bond should be kept.
If on the other hand the company is negligent in their duties and or promises then its fair game to ignore the bond.
It is so simple the question should not even be posed.
Unfortunately in aviation far to many pilots will break their bond if they think they can get a bigger airplane.
Therefore the money bond.
If a pilot wishes to leave for a bigger airplane or better position then the bond should be kept.
If on the other hand the company is negligent in their duties and or promises then its fair game to ignore the bond.
It is so simple the question should not even be posed.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I agree, If people would hold true to their word there would be no need for bonds in the first place. Most decent operators wouldn't hold it against their people for moving on to a much better position at another company in the first place (bigger airplane). On the other hand if I had just given someone an initial PPC on an airplane and they left 2 months later to fly the same plane at a different company I'd be a bit upset to. Hence, why we now have bonds.It used to be a persons word was their bond.
Unfortunately in aviation far to many pilots will break their bond if they think they can get a bigger airplane.
Therefore the money bond.
If a pilot wishes to leave for a bigger airplane or better position then the bond should be kept.
If on the other hand the company is negligent in their duties and or promises then its fair game to ignore the bond.
It is so simple the question should not even be posed.
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Double Wasp
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I'm not saying bonds are always right but just keep in mind that a lot of companies do not charge the full amount of the training for the bond. It could cost as much as twice as much to train a person than what they are actually signing for. But if you have to put the money up front, which You said wasn't the case, or if the bond is not prorated ( ie: decreases every month) then I would say that it is not a fair system and I would personally fight it. The problem might arise that they already have your money and you are going to shell out more for a lawyer. There is some cases however that I do feel that a bond is not appropriate at all. Like when some young person has worked the ramp for a year plus, I would say that they have paid off the initial comitment with sweat equity. However when it comes time for another upgrade say to a more complex type then I am not completely against another bond either.
When it stops leakin oil then you worry.
Not to stick up for either side but there are always 2 of them. some companies will treat pilots like crap so they leave. who would blame them for leaving. so companies brings in bond. who is at fault then. some companies will establish bonds because they can know KEEP treating you like crap and they have nothing to lose. but there is the other side of the coin as well.....
Commitment is something that works both ways.
With respect to giving ones word... it is only as good as the person giving it and the conditions attached to it. There are many reasons why both the employee and the employer has a change of heart.
How many employers actually commit to the employment term they give you? That would be a twist wouldn't it?
You are best advised to get a lawyer and consult with them, if you are concerned and want to handle it properly, you may through a lawyer negotiate a lesser payment.
If you have no argument other than the fact that you decided to chase a bigger piece of metal, you may end up having to honour your bond. That is of course provided there are no holes in the contract.
With respect to giving ones word... it is only as good as the person giving it and the conditions attached to it. There are many reasons why both the employee and the employer has a change of heart.
How many employers actually commit to the employment term they give you? That would be a twist wouldn't it?
You are best advised to get a lawyer and consult with them, if you are concerned and want to handle it properly, you may through a lawyer negotiate a lesser payment.
If you have no argument other than the fact that you decided to chase a bigger piece of metal, you may end up having to honour your bond. That is of course provided there are no holes in the contract.
He got the call from Jazz.bcflyer wrote:I have to agree with Frank D on this one. You said you would stay 2 yrs, why are you leaving early?
Last edited by 2low on Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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scubaflyer
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I don't know, 2 years on the ramp making wages I rather not talk about. Then they dangle a PPC infront of you, but only if you sign a little 2 year bond for X amount of dollars. Kinda hard sometimes to think you actually "owe" them anything when you decide to move on. Why do companies need bonds to keep people there?? If it is a good place, with good wages, with chances of movement and upgrades, why do they have to make you sign a paper for you to stay. Why can't they offer an environment that would make you want to stay, instead of being forced to stay for a couple of years. Pilots are always looking for the bigger better deal, it isn't a new fad in the industry. Offer it, and they will stay, it's a sad trutht of the industry, but there are companies out there whom have people who have been there for years, not because of a bond, or beacause of their word, but becuase they want to be there.
I do think it is a little different if you actually put some time in. I don't like the guys who take their ticket and run. These are the guys that ruin it for the rest of the industry. Taking a PPC given to you by one place and leaving to go sit in the same airplane in the same seat is bullshit in my eyes. If you are offered a position somewhere else, that your present company can't offer you, than they should be more than understanding if you decide to go. I only agree if your moving up, side stepping with a companies PPC is a shitty way to go about things.
This is a topic that has been brought up a million times and will continue to be brought up. Every case is different, but in the end, it is your career and in an industry like this, you have to constantly be looking out for number one. Good luck.
I do think it is a little different if you actually put some time in. I don't like the guys who take their ticket and run. These are the guys that ruin it for the rest of the industry. Taking a PPC given to you by one place and leaving to go sit in the same airplane in the same seat is bullshit in my eyes. If you are offered a position somewhere else, that your present company can't offer you, than they should be more than understanding if you decide to go. I only agree if your moving up, side stepping with a companies PPC is a shitty way to go about things.
This is a topic that has been brought up a million times and will continue to be brought up. Every case is different, but in the end, it is your career and in an industry like this, you have to constantly be looking out for number one. Good luck.
You can't hit what you can't see.
Thats a tough spot to be in, however you had to know that Jazz was hiring like crazy when you took the job. (8 months ago would have made it around June and Jazz was well into its current hiring spree) Guess you shouldn't have committed for two years knowing the state of the industry at the time. If I was the judge I'd make you pay the remainder of the bond.2low wrote:
He got the call from Jazz.
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Bookem Lou
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I think that if the contract was signed, in good faith, and is only being terminated because you found a better offer, you should honour the terms of the agreement.
The main issue I have with people wanting to get out of training bonds is that, with few exceptions, the pilot was not forced to sign the bond. If he/she was, that constitutes duress, but it is rare for this to happen.
As an example, if you are new to a company or even to a specific role (i.e. rampie moving to pilot), and the company says, "If you want to be a pilot, we require you to sign a bond," this is not duress. This is a condition of employment.
If you are already a pilot there and the company says, "If you want to continue flying here, you have to sign this bond," that is a form of duress. They are threatening to take away a job you already have if you don't sign their piece of paper.
In short, unless either (a) the company did not meet the material terms and provisions of the agreement (i.e. they didn't train you); (b) you can prove (in court) that you are leaving because of occupational health and safety concerns etc; or, (c) the agreement was signed under duress, you may have to pay.
Presumably nobody forced you to sign the agreement or held a gun to your head. In most cases, you chose to sign it so that you could fly trhe company's equipment. Also, be careful of option (b) because, while it may get you off the hook for your training bond, you could start attracting the attention of our federal regulator who wants to know why you kept safety concerns in your back pocket until it served only to benefit you personally (and not public safety) by bringing them out.
If you go to court, it is possible that the courts will ask for a detailed statement from the company as to what their training costs were. In that case, if they are found to be less than what you signed for, you could wind up with a break (assuming the agreement stands).
Think deep down and honestly about this agreement... If the company did what they said they would and were fair to you, then they deserve their costs back. At the very least, offer a settlement that is reasonable and takes into account that everyone is saving legal fees and can get on with their lives.
Good luck with your decision.
The main issue I have with people wanting to get out of training bonds is that, with few exceptions, the pilot was not forced to sign the bond. If he/she was, that constitutes duress, but it is rare for this to happen.
As an example, if you are new to a company or even to a specific role (i.e. rampie moving to pilot), and the company says, "If you want to be a pilot, we require you to sign a bond," this is not duress. This is a condition of employment.
If you are already a pilot there and the company says, "If you want to continue flying here, you have to sign this bond," that is a form of duress. They are threatening to take away a job you already have if you don't sign their piece of paper.
In short, unless either (a) the company did not meet the material terms and provisions of the agreement (i.e. they didn't train you); (b) you can prove (in court) that you are leaving because of occupational health and safety concerns etc; or, (c) the agreement was signed under duress, you may have to pay.
Presumably nobody forced you to sign the agreement or held a gun to your head. In most cases, you chose to sign it so that you could fly trhe company's equipment. Also, be careful of option (b) because, while it may get you off the hook for your training bond, you could start attracting the attention of our federal regulator who wants to know why you kept safety concerns in your back pocket until it served only to benefit you personally (and not public safety) by bringing them out.
If you go to court, it is possible that the courts will ask for a detailed statement from the company as to what their training costs were. In that case, if they are found to be less than what you signed for, you could wind up with a break (assuming the agreement stands).
Think deep down and honestly about this agreement... If the company did what they said they would and were fair to you, then they deserve their costs back. At the very least, offer a settlement that is reasonable and takes into account that everyone is saving legal fees and can get on with their lives.
Good luck with your decision.
Last edited by Johnny on Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This is why aviation in Canada is going to the dogs. Whether you spent 2 or 5 years working on the ramp for crap wages is irrelevant. You agreed to it. When the employer and you agree to a contract, and you sign your name on the dotted line, you have made a comittment. A bond. You have given your word. Everything that happened in the past becomes just that...the past. If you signed in bad faith knowing you you had no plans to keep your word then your a jerk. If you planned on keeping your word then why ask the question. It all comes down to integrity not legality.
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godsrcrazy
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This topic has been beat to death on this forum. I love how some jump on the band wagon about how companies make people sign bonds because the working conditions suck. That is just straight Bull. They make people sign bonds because very few peoples words are worth $hit any more. What amases me as you have not got the look for saftey violations and use that as an excuss yet.
If you are going to move then just pay your money and move. If things were so bad you should have left before you signed the bond.
Be a real person and do whats right PAY UP BUDDY.
If you are going to move then just pay your money and move. If things were so bad you should have left before you signed the bond.
Be a real person and do whats right PAY UP BUDDY.
All the character issues aside.
I have not heard of a case yet where the bonds hold up in court. The court looks unfavourably on companies saying "Hey you want a job, sign here or your outta luck". Most guys argue on the grounds that they were put in a position where it was, sign or be jobless.
It's your call man. If you will be able to sleep easy at night . Then tell them to "pound sand" and walk away. Furthur fucking your fellow aviators in the future. It won't be long before operators are asking for cash up front. Oh wait that already is happening and this is exactly why.
I have not heard of a case yet where the bonds hold up in court. The court looks unfavourably on companies saying "Hey you want a job, sign here or your outta luck". Most guys argue on the grounds that they were put in a position where it was, sign or be jobless.
It's your call man. If you will be able to sleep easy at night . Then tell them to "pound sand" and walk away. Furthur fucking your fellow aviators in the future. It won't be long before operators are asking for cash up front. Oh wait that already is happening and this is exactly why.
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Justwannafly
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Commonwealth
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tripleseven
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I heard recently of a pilot who beat off a complaint from a company about an unpaid bond. The judge basically said the contract was totally one-sided and left the pilot absolutely no outs when it came terminating the contract. He added one or two documented instances of breaking the cars (forced to exceed duty day) and voila, no need to pay back nasty owner.
If your in a similar position, I suggest you get your lawyer to search the recent case law from Manitoba.
If your in a similar position, I suggest you get your lawyer to search the recent case law from Manitoba.
bonds
If someone wiggles out of a training bond in the woods do they make any noise, no but we sure hear the guys moaning about paying a higher bond somewhere else.......
Your word.... your concience. But i know my word is worth more than $4700............
Your word.... your concience. But i know my word is worth more than $4700............
