How happy are the AC drivers with ACPA?

[KAG]

Was talking to a friend of mine who is a fairly senior skipper on the bus. He was telling me that they are looking for new representation as ACPA is not doing the best job. He was hoping for a vote within the next 6 months. Whats your thoughts...Obviously I have none. Must admit, this is the first I've heard of this. Any chance of rejoining ALPA?

[Rebel]

Was talking to a friend of mine who is a fairly senior skipper on the bus. He was telling me that they are looking for new representation as ACPA is not doing the best job. He was hoping for a vote within the next 6 months. Whats your thoughts...Obviously I have none. Must admit, this is the first I've heard of this. Any chance of rejoining ALPA?

I wouldn’t read too much into what you were told as everyone is entitled to their opinion. There is an old adage “put three pilots in a room and you’ll have four opinions.” Oh and the majority of Canadian airline pilots were represented by CALPA not ALPA prior to ACPA.

[RussD]

Was talking to a friend of mine who is a fairly senior skipper on the bus. He was telling me that they are looking for new representation as ACPA is not doing the best job. He was hoping for a vote within the next 6 months. Whats your thoughts...Obviously I have none. Must admit, this is the first I've heard of this. Any chance of rejoining ALPA?

I wouldn’t read too much into what you were told as everyone is entitled to their opinion. There is an old adage “put three pilots in a room and you’ll have four opinions.” Oh and the majority of Canadian airline pilots were represented by CALPA not ALPA prior to ACPA.

No,, that would be wrong. The bargaining agent for the Canadian pilots was ALPA dating from the ALPA/CALPA merger in 1997 until ACPA was declared the successor bargaining agent following a vote, post AC/CAIL common employer declaration by the CIRB (circa 2000)

[Rebel]

[
No,, that would be wrong. The bargaining agent for the Canadian pilots was ALPA dating from the ALPA/CALPA merger in 1997 until ACPA was declared the successor bargaining agent following a vote, post AC/CAIL common employer declaration by the CIRB (circa 2000)

I stand corrected I should have said AC pilots.

[Dockjock]

What's the difference what the acronym is? Bottom line is the committees are made up of elected members with 2 year terms. You're still gonna get the same candidates for the next election whether or not the letterhead says ACPA or ALPA. A union is made up of members. A rose by any other name etc..........

[LANDGREEN]

How happy are the AC drivers with ACPA?

Simple....
NOT F#@$'ING VERY!!!!!

[Martin Tamme]

Last summer the John Molson School of Business conducted a extensive morale survey of Air Canada Pilots vis-a-vis their employer (Air Canada) and their Union (ACPA). Of the 3100 ACPA pilots, 883 completed the survey (take away management pilots and those on disability, and 30% of active pilots completed the survey).

The 24-page report is posted on the ACPA Forum. There was one open-ended question (What do you think ACPA's leadership could do to protect your interests in Air Canada?), of which 419 pilots answered by giving intricate details.

Anybody can say what they want here with respect to rumours and innuendos or what they heard from their friend who's an expert on any matter, however the facts speak for themselves and were quite an eye-opener for the ACPA leadership.

[LANDGREEN]

Martin....
The only thing that ACPA needs to do to restore the balance is grow a set!!! As I voted for you in the last election I KNOW that you are truly a valuable asset to the organization(did I just say acpa was organized? naw...) anyway pal I know you are doing what you can...try and get the rest of that spineless, cowardly, exceptionally self centred group of a-holes a grip of reality and get things straight before 2009.
Cheers....

[TFE731]

Martin....
The only thing that ACPA needs to do to restore the balance is grow a set!!! ...try and get the rest of that spineless, cowardly, exceptionally self centred group of a-holes a grip of reality and get things straight before 2009.
Cheers....

Wow sometimes I can say that I am embarrassed to call myself a part of this group of professionals. Whatever happened to class and chivalry

[LANDGREEN]

Martin....
The only thing that ACPA needs to do to restore the balance is grow a set!!! ...try and get the rest of that spineless, cowardly, exceptionally self centred group of a-holes a grip of reality and get things straight before 2009.
Cheers....

Wow sometimes I can say that I am embarrassed to call myself a part of this group of professionals. Whatever happened to class and chivalry

TFE731...
Well what can I say....I call it like I see it. If you are indeed a member of ACPA then you only know too well the constant beating we've been taking over the 5 years from this management group. I apologize for letting my frustration out over a public forum like this but maybe the Captain Morgan had something to do with my outburst. Neverthess It's how I feel along with many others that I know. Class and chivalry has not worked and will not work with these guys...blunt force is required in heavy dose...Your not P.A are you? cause if you are the self centred a-hole comment was for you!!!

[Rebel]

[TFE731...
Well what can I say....I call it like I see it. If you are indeed a member of ACPA then you only know too well the constant beating we've been taking over the 5 years from this management group. I apologize for letting my frustration out over a public forum like this but maybe the Captain Morgan had something to do with my outburst. Neverthess It's how I feel along with many others that I know. Class and chivalry has not worked and will not work with these guys...blunt force is required in heavy dose...Your not P.A are you? cause if you are the self centred a-hole comment was for you!!!

With ramblings and thinking like this it’s no wonder we don’t have the respect of management...

[LANDGREEN]

Rebel,
maybe you could sum things up for me then and explain how the current approach is and has worked so well for the last few years? Pardon my rambling as you say but I am personally fed up with the way things keep going downhill for us a group. Quite frankly the way ACPA does business with management doesn't work....period! Tell me or show me a better way and I will listen. I like change as long as it's in the right direction...

[Rebel]

Sorry to have to be the messenger but since the advent of the LCC the world of aviation has changed. With our current high cost structure we will be lucky to hang on to what we have. I personally don’t like it but that’s the reality.

I suspect you’re one of those “wait till’ 09 types and then what’s going to happen. Perhaps we won’t have AC to bash around. Just a thought, maybe we should rewrite our contact so that everyone understands it, respects it, as a good contract is one that everybody understands..

You can rest assured that the WJ pilot group is never going to threaten to put their company to the wall as our association/unions always seem to do. It’s time to work as a team instead of treating AC as the enemy..

Respect is earned and not a given, act like a professional and you'll be treated like one .

[LANDGREEN]

Sorry to have to be the messenger but since the advent of the LCC the world of aviation has changed. With our current high cost structure we will be lucky to hang on to what we have. I personally don’t like it but that’s the reality.

I suspect you’re one of those “wait till’ 09 types and then what’s going to happen. Perhaps we won’t have AC to bash around. Just a thought, maybe we should rewrite our contact so that everyone understands it, respects it, as a good contract is one that everybody understands..

You can rest assured that the WJ pilot group is never going to threaten to put their company to the wall as our association/unions always seem to do. It’s time to work as a team instead of treating AC as the enemy..

Respect is earned and not a given, act like a professional and you'll be treated like one .

Oh that's it....Got it now.. LCC has done this to us. WJetters have brought our working conditions and pay rates down. In case you haven't noticed their contract and pay tables exceed ours where we were on the other side 5 years ago and I say good for them in doing so. Have a look at the WJ/Jazz contract...I would gladly trade their working conditions for ours. Can you please elaborate on your comment of high cost structure? Cause last time I check we were the lowest paid Star Alliance pilots in the world. Lucky to hold on to what we have now you say. There lies the problem!!! Undeniable proof that we will take it from 6 o'clock in the not too distant future. By the way the only people that have been put to the wall recently is you along with the rest of a badly fractured group of professionals at Air Canada. Speaking of which... I dont need your advice on how to earn respect or how to act professional. save it!! Ive been acting professional and earning respect from my peers for 18 years of flying now and have been getting by just fine. Let people walk all over you and let them take what they want when they want it....well there goes your respect along with much more which is glaringly evident.

[JayDee]

It’s time to work as a team

Respect is earned and not a given, act like a professional and you'll be treated like one .

While I agree wholeheartedly in principle, both these quotes assume a two way street.

In Miltons world there is only one way...his way or the highway !

As long as Milton remains in place, he will forever be the poster boy for distrust, moral depravity and out & out disgust to the majority of the employees.

The BOD must be blind to not see this simple logic. His ass should have been turfed immediately after CCAA. Instead he is allowed to stay, pour acid into the already festering wounds and rape the company on a regular basis.

Nothing will change until he is gone.

[Rebel]

Hey maybe the problem lies within our pilot group. Finger pointing might emotionally work in the short term but does little to solve our high cost problems. Perhaps we should form a mixed line/management pilot committee to oversee the entire operation with their primary focus on how to improve the system, personal interests be dammed... The contract could then be reworked to its simplest terms which would be understood by all. For example one of the first problems that have to be addressed is our high training costs. Other legacy carriers put a cap on how many courses a pilot can take in his/her career. Is our pilot group willing to do the same in exchange for other considerations? The list of required changes is long and unless we address the problems today we won’t have an AC tomorrow.

Let’s get a handle on how to fix the system instead of emotionally attacking AC for our own inadequacies

[B612]

Landgreen - sorry my friend but I think you are misinformed. WJ and LCC's are a big part of the problem. You think the group that cut our contract off at the knees for 9 years and get a raise suddenly lead the pack? C'mon... The arbitrator felt AC pilots are still better compensated that WJ pilots in his award, and I think you would very much regret a comparable schedule, perdiems, etc to our teal team cohorts. I'd like their vacation allowance and respect from management, that's all. CAIL and AC were very close to equal pay/contract wise, the same is absolutely not true with WJ. ACPA needs to get it's head out of the merger sand and move on. As a pilot group we need to make up for lost ground and continue to be the positive trend-setters for aviation in Canada. But remember our new reality is brought to you by WJ and other LCC's.

[Martin Tamme]

The arbitrator felt AC pilots are still better compensated that WJ pilots in his award, and I think you would very much regret a comparable schedule, perdiems, etc to our teal team cohorts.

Actually, that is not quite true. There wasn't much of a debate surrounding the underpayment of Air Canada pilots when compared to the rest of the industry. The Westjet contract was entered into evidence, which clearly showed that Westjet pilots are better compensated than Air Canada pilots.

The entire arbitration centered around Air Canada inability to pay. Add to the fact, 4 independent arbitrators had ruled just prior (for other unions) that Air Canada could not afford any pay increases.

[WJ700]

Landgreen - sorry my friend but I think you are misinformed. WJ and LCC's are a big part of the problem. You think the group that cut our contract off at the knees for 9 years and get a raise suddenly lead the pack? C'mon... The arbitrator felt AC pilots are still better compensated that WJ pilots in his award, and I think you would very much regret a comparable schedule, perdiems, etc to our teal team cohorts. I'd like their vacation allowance and respect from management, that's all. CAIL and AC were very close to equal pay/contract wise, the same is absolutely not true with WJ. ACPA needs to get it's head out of the merger sand and move on. As a pilot group we need to make up for lost ground and continue to be the positive trend-setters for aviation in Canada. But remember our new reality is brought to you by WJ and other LCC's.

You are very correct on most of that post. WestJet has a long way to go to be near equal and we're working on it. However in my opinion, you could fix a lot in your own back yard by playing nice with Jazz before 2009, and you have a great opportuinity right now with both sides talking. Don't blame WestJet as you're 'contract killer' when most of the pilots of 6 or more years are now working on the top end of their second million.

[Lakelad]

The arbitrator felt AC pilots are still better compensated that WJ pilots in his award, and I think you would very much regret a comparable schedule, perdiems, etc to our teal team cohorts. I'd like their vacation allowance and respect from management, that's all.

From the ACPA submission in the salary arb:

[Rebel]

Come on that’s not the whole true picture and you know it. Do you really think you’re going to fool anyone in the know with that comparison? Just for starters WJ pilots are at risk for their compensation package, AC pilots are not...

Save that union rhetoric for the uneducated...

[The Hammer]

Come on that’s not the whole true picture and you know it. Do you really think you’re going to fool anyone in the know with that comparison? Just for starters WJ pilots are at risk for their compensation package, AC pilots are not...

Save that union rhetoric for the uneducated...

AC pilot's renumeration is not at risk??? Where were you in CCAA???
DB pensions were a c-hair from becoming extinct. Take a look south. DB pensions are going the way of the dodo bird. United, US airways, Delta, NorthWest all had their pensions wrapped up. My guess is that in less than 10 years so will AC's. Just about every fad that happens down south (LCC, RJ's, etc) happens in Canada about a decade later.

BEND OVER

[Localizer]

Rebel ..

What the hell are you talking about? Are you trying to say that the pilot group is respondsible for coming up with a way to cut cost by accepting a huge paycut? That the companies respondsibility for training should rest on the back of the working pilot, and they should give up future opportunities to chip in? Are you a mgt pilot by chance? Or just really giving?

I don't believe that LCC's are the problem because AC has changed their ways to match those of the LCC's by offering what customers wanted. The meals have been removed, and the ticket price lowered .. if you want a meal, buy it. I guess we could get ridiculous and charge $2.00 per headset? .. maybe that will help offset cost?!

[grammar boy]

Come on that’s not the whole true picture and you know it. Do you really think you’re going to fool anyone in the know with that comparison? Just for starters WJ pilots are at risk for their compensation package, AC pilots are not...

Save that union rhetoric for the uneducated...

Rebel:

The only part of the compensation "at risk" is the options. We can choose to accept 100% option value (increase the risk) or 25% option value (decrease it). That chart appears to display the salary package for someone who chooses 25% options. The base salary is guaranteed. ESP is optional, you can do 0 or 20% of your gross (100% company matched) and profit share is for liquor and whores , most people think of is as a bonus, and not part of the compensation.

What's missing though is the years of service in the chart. The WJ numbers appear to be 10 year figures (for Cap) and probably 6-7 yr f/o.

Cheers

[Rebel]

How typical, if a senior line Captain disagrees with the current union wisdom he/she must be a management pilot. Grow up folks the world has changed either get on board with the new reality or risk been left behind at the station.

Our fixed costs are too high and unless we as a group wake up and smell the roses the LCC’s will continue to whip our ass’s cost wise. WJ pilots accepted the market risk compensation package and managed that risk from the start. AC pilots have always been spoon fed. Stop comparing our package with others unless you present the whole contract.

We simply cannot afford the training costs associated with our present bidding system. We should not be allowed to change our bid until the company has recovered the previous training costs. In short manage your career for other considerations. In case some of you fire brands have forgotten LH has a cap on how many courses a pilot can take in his/her career..

Do you want to be part of the solution or are you part of the problem?