Union

[electraguy]

Actually it was me who said that! Ya Cat I agree with your statment. I believe overall that aviation is as safe as any other industry out there. Having been involved in other industrys before aviation I have seen mistakes there too. I believe aviation is a fairly safe industry, could it use improvments in some areas, yes, but what industry couldn't. I have had the privlidge of working with many aviation proffesionals with many diffrent companys and I am proud to say that saftey was always a key factor in there work. I am proud to be in aviation, both as a pilot and in the specialty mainteance industry. As for the Unions, I don't believe they would help aviation at all, as a matter of fact they would hurt the industry. What we could use is a change of attitude buy some operators on how they treat,pay, and regulate aviation personnel under there employ. Also, as stated earlier the dictionary meaning of the word dangerous could apply to simply getting up in the morning some days. I understand where Widow is coming from, but I don't believe the industry as a whole should bear the brunt of that incident and we should all be painted with the same brush. Fly fast, Fly safe all!

[trey kule]

Cat wrote:

Your committing sodomy in Georgia and you got stuck?

Ah...well...maybe......but dont go getting all jealous on me.

Truth is the locals think a stag movie is about shooting bambie.

[Cat Driver]

I would like to see how flying on the west coast compares fatatility wise with say truck driving.

I have a feeling you are far more likely to get killed flying on the west coast than you are driving a truck...

[Cat Driver]

Truth is the locals think a stag movie is about shooting bambie.

I hear you Trey K....

Ahhh but that southern drawl when a southren belle moans...aahhhhhh...Deah Gawd, ah is comminn sugur..

Cat

[xsbank]

"Aircraft pilots matched that death rate of 92.4 and 109 of them died on the job. Many of these were in the general aviation category, small aircraft manned by bush pilots, air-taxi pilots, and crop-dusters. Their equipment can be old and the maintenance less stringent than among the big airlines, adding to the danger."

[xsbank]

"Flyers had a safer year, with their fatalities dropping nearly 26 percent to 81. That still was enough to qualify the profession as the third-most dangerous with a rate of 66.9 per 100,000." 2006

Yes, these are all US - I'm still looking for Canadian stats.

[xsbank]

"In addition to an evaluation by industry, the CSLS report gives figures for the most dangerous occupations. These show that trades, transport and equipment operators have the highest fatality rates, with 408.6 deaths per year on average between 1996 and 2004."

Still looking.

[electraguy]

Wow, those are some great stats yaaaaawwwwnnn I bet you the canadian stats will come up very different. There are alot of workers in the transport and trades industrys who have far greater risks and fatality stats than aviation. If ya ever worked the oilpatch, you could come see risk played out first hand, been there, done that!

[Paciflyer]

in keeping it short and as a past member of a large Ontario union for many years, I say only this:

Bring in a union and give up all freedom you've come to enjoy as a pilot....when, where and how to fly are already mandated by regulatory authority such as it is - the above decisions are left to us under that authority to keep it safe - end of story.

[xsbank]

Well electraguy, why don't you do some research yourself? Your perceptions are wrong, but your attitude is just plain annoying - why don't you find some stats to prove how safe it all is? Show us how perceptive you are and back up your bullshit. Yes less people get killed in airplanes than thunder in from heart attacks, but we're talking occupational safety!

I found an Aussie site that compares Canada, the US and OZ accident statistics and Canada was the highest.

Prove that I'm wrong - or shut up.

[electraguy]

Awww come on guy, don't get all pissy. take a break. honestly xsbank, I am not going to waste my time lookin up stats on the net. I am not stats kinda guy. In my view the industry is as safe as any other, as I have worked in a couple others in my day. If you don't like my attitude, well that sounds like a personal problem. If you wanna keep researching more stats to prove your point, feel free I would be interested to see them, but stats only tell some of the story, how many were operator error, mech failure, weather related. There are so many variables in aviation that you could spend hours breaking down those stats into each category, and even then your only goin on the info provided from the crash investigation, whos to say thats accurate. Anyways, wasn't this whole thing on unions vs saftey?

[bandaid]

Having been on both sides of the fence I do believe that Unions have there place in any industry. If you go through your whole career without ever having to use there services then you have had a good career, if you call them every other week, well you figure it out.
Unfortunately what seems the norm with a union is the tendency to shape everything to protect the lowest common denominator, good for those people but frustrating for the majority of you that don't fall into that category.
As a manager I became frustrated very quickly with the constant checking with the contract to see what we could get done and what fell into the lowest common denominator category. The other thing that was trying was the constant use of lawyers to oversee every move we made and I am pretty sure that is on both sides of the fence so you know where the majority of your union dues are going. And one last point about unions, and I say this kind of tonque in cheek, pretty much the only time you see or hear from them is when you are 1)negotiating a contract that needs ratifying or 2) When they are seeking a raise in union dues. For the most part your union head office will tend to be in a place like Toronto, not too helpful if you live in Prince George B.C., our head offices are in Ottawa for CUPE.

[ragbagflyer]

I don't think there's any purpose to a union for pilot's of the smaller companies. Unions encourage shitty performance. The small operators already have enough on the line as it is. They need absolute control of who is working for them. If I had a couple millions invested in a business I wouldn't want my hands tied. I know it's frustrating trying to get your foot in the door. I got screwed over a couple times but when I got my break I took full advantage of it. I'm still not out of the woods yet, as a reasonably low time pilot with just under 1000 hours. I'm taking the opportunity given to me to show that I can be a safe and skilled pilot worth investing in. New pilot's don't need a group to speak for them, they need their actions to speak for them and they need to cowboy the @#$! up and prove themselves the way others have been doing since way before my time.

[Widow]

electraguy: Did you see the other threads? In BC, the death rate for the air charter industry is over twice that of ANY other industry, coming in at an incredible 21.5 deaths per 10,000 person-years, compared to the logging death rate - the second highest - of 9.3 .

And that figure is on the rise.

'nuf said.

[electraguy]

As I said in my previous post. Do they actually break that down into operator error, mech failure, weather and other factors. The stat sounds bad I agree, but there is always more than meets the eye in those stats. I am still not even close to jumpin on the "dangerous" bandwagon.

[Strega]

I don't think there's any purpose to a union for pilot's of the smaller companies. Unions encourage shitty performance. The small operators already have enough on the line as it is. They need absolute control of who is working for them. If I had a couple millions invested in a business I wouldn't want my hands tied. I know it's frustrating trying to get your foot in the door. I got screwed over a couple times but when I got my break I took full advantage of it. I'm still not out of the woods yet, as a reasonably low time pilot with just under 1000 hours. I'm taking the opportunity given to me to show that I can be a safe and skilled pilot worth investing in. New pilot's don't need a group to speak for them, they need their actions to speak for them and they need to cowboy the @#$! up and prove themselves the way others have been doing since way before my time.

I tend to disagree with you. If we had a Union for all companies, including small ones, you the low time pilot, would be protected from hours of work that are insane ie 14 duty day, wages that are completly silly- What other profession starts their "apprentices" at below the poverty level. Also it would ensure inexperienced pilots would not be "thrown to the sharks" as happens now- how many guys did N** A** kill?


What we need is a union/organization or whatever you want to call it that will stand up to protect us, rid this industy of the ass kissing wannabes, and restore professionalism through the mentoring of junior members, both with respect to hands on skill, and more importantly ethics/professionalism.

How many more people have to die in clapped out old junk, before people will wake up?

[xsbank]

Electraguy, I know you hate stats, but here they are. Thank you Widow!

"Top 9 Industry Death rates according to WorksafeBC, per 10,000 person-hours:

Sawmills: 1.3
Heavy Manufacturing: 1.8
Building Construction: 2.5
Road Building and Related Work: 3.3
Farming: 4.1
Trucking: 4.8
Mining: 8.0
Logging: 9.3
Air Charter Service: 21.5

WorksafeBC Lost Lives: Work-related deaths in BC

Oh yes, and please review the number of pilot deaths for 2005 and 2006 in the "remembering pilots" thread. That death rate has increased. Things have definately NOT gotten better."

Dangerous, or what?

[Widow]

As I said in my previous post. Do they actually break that down into operator error, mech failure, weather and other factors. The stat sounds bad I agree, but there is always more than meets the eye in those stats. I am still not even close to jumpin on the "dangerous" bandwagon.

Since WCB has no right to investigate aviation accidents and find cause, no, they don't break it down. But guess what! Other industries' fatalities would then need to be broken down into the different factors in their workplace.

Overall, there are a shitload of charter operaters across the country. Pilots want to work, and the operaters take advantage of them. Nobody is protecting the pilots.

[electraguy]

Hey Widow

Hey i know all about how alot of operators treat there junior pilots but a union is not the answer. As for the danger stats, well we have a different opinion on that, which is cool we are both entitled.

[marktheone]

electraguy: Did you see the other threads? In BC, the death rate for the air charter industry is over twice that of ANY other industry, coming in at an incredible 21.5 deaths per 10,000 person-hours, compared to the logging death rate - the second highest - of 9.3 .

And that figure is on the rise.

'nuf said.

That's enough of this crap for me. I'm goin back to truckin.

[Widow]

Hey Widow

Hey i know all about how alot of operators treat there junior pilots but a union is not the answer. As for the danger stats, well we have a different opinion on that, which is cool we are both entitled.

I don't necessarily think a union is the answer either. But I do think there should be some system in place to protect the pilots. Tribunals don't seem to work. I started the thread trying to find out the history of unions in aviation, wondering why the don't work, or if they won't.

[Widow]

That's enough of this crap for me. I'm goin back to truckin.

Number 4 on the list, trucking: 4.8/10,000 person-years.

Truckin, Im a goin home. whoa whoa baby, back where I belong,
Back home, sit down and patch my bones, and get back truckin on.

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[duCapo]

K, I have got to have my say here. After spending 4 years in the bush in the mid 70’s, I came back to the coast, to a union job. It was pilot heaven. Shirt and tie job. Regular days off. Dock boys loading, dock boys even warming up our planes for us. Times were good, operators were making money. But we still had a higher fatality rate then, than we do in the industry now. We were busy, operators pushed hard, pilots pushed hard, it was the way things were done. I do NOT condone that.

But I will stick my neck out here and say that pilots have always been their own worst enemy when it comes to wages and working conditions. There is always some Bozo who will work longer, for less money, flying bigger loads, in worse weather than you. There will always be the rogue operators who cut rates and use said Bozos for employees. But they are getting fewer and fewer now thank God. The industry is far safer now for the employees and the customers than ever before. TC regulations not withstanding, it pays to run a safe operation. I can’t afford to have even one accident. It just makes good common sense. Period.

Some places I worked that were not union, and some that were, God help the pilot that refused to fly in bad weather or overloaded A/C. They were stigmatized as whiners and if they didn’t want to do the trip, get the f*** out of the way and let someone who would. (I still hear of incidents like that from the other operator up here.) Fatality rates were so high in some companies then,that would be unacceptable losses in a military campaign. At least with the unions we had some protection little as it was.

I have always maintained that there should be a pilots association which is mandatory to join after obtaining your commercial license, and it is mandatory for operators to hire from this pool. Then the operators ( and I am an operator now) This would help to get and maintain charter rates up to a level that could sustain decent wages and working conditions.

It is unfortunate that pilots always seem to fall under the radar when there are problems with wages or working hours. Now one in government really wants to take responsibility for it. Large operators can lobby TC and have the CARS adjusted to suit their own specific operations, ie: extended duty days, hours etc.

I don’t know the whole answer, I just know it has always been a pet peeve of mine, and now that I am an owner, I am doing the best that I can to run an operation that is a place I would like to work:-)

[xsbank]

I remember those union jobs with my cutesy uniform and tie. Used to be able to fly out on the mallard on your last day of work, fly back in on your first day back. Made good dosh in the '70s, better than some guys are paid now.

Got my start in PR, flying a beav back and forth across the Hecate Straits with a drum DG and a watch. Landing in back of Kitkatla in a westerly in a 180. Avoiding the Silver Creek Monster while trying to get to Quattoon Inlet. Fishing in Bill's Lake south of Toon and limiting out in a hour.

Do you land over the north shore, towards the dock, straight in?

[duCapo]

I see u been there done that in Kitkatla:-) yep gotta love those westerlies . Things are alot quieter up here now than the 70's but the weather is just as nasty. Nice thing is we are older and the public is much more educated in safety. No more of the " In that case if the sched is cancelled I will charter" calls. (well less calls anyway) from passengers. One of my union jobs was in YBL, wearing a cute green uniform. Looked like a carhop at Whitespot.