Then heard that it is true about recruiting at the College level... so if you want in, get in now.
Gentlemen... start your engines
.Jazz Hiring
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog
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twinpratts
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Jazz Hiring
Heard that the main reason YYC isn't expanding is a lack of Pilots, specifically applicants.
Then heard that it is true about recruiting at the College level... so if you want in, get in now.
Gentlemen... start your engines .
Then heard that it is true about recruiting at the College level... so if you want in, get in now.
Gentlemen... start your engines
.I want to die like my grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming in terror like his passengers...
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thrust set
- Rank 3
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I have heard from a family member that Jazz is going to try an experiment and select 16 college grads and train them to fly either the Dash or the CRJ.
I know we beat this topic down in another thread but I was just wondering if ALPA had a position whether for or against this idea for Jazz.
I know we beat this topic down in another thread but I was just wondering if ALPA had a position whether for or against this idea for Jazz.
Seems stupid to hire guys with no experience when theres guys with experience who want in. There is definately a reason they're looking at this possibly:
Does anyone know about companies getting tax breaks or grants from the government for hiring college grads?
Maybe Jazz is in it for cheap labour (not that we arent working for peanuts already). Also these guys could never be upgraded to Capt with no PIC time.
Does anyone know about companies getting tax breaks or grants from the government for hiring college grads?
Maybe Jazz is in it for cheap labour (not that we arent working for peanuts already). Also these guys could never be upgraded to Capt with no PIC time.
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jim_from_texas
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From what I know Jazz has a problem retaining pilots. If they hire guys with 250h these people will more then likely stay for a lot longer then someone with 4000-5000h who is qualified for AC,WJ or CX. So that's about 5-6 years of experience. By that time the industry will be in the downturn so they probably won't be looking for work elsewhere.
From their latest job posting on Workopolis:
In order to be considered for employment pilots must meet certain basic criteria:
possess a Canadian Airline Transport Pilot’s License (ATPL);
have a minimum of 1,500 hours fixed wing flight experience (only ½ of second officer time will be counted towards total flight experience);
have a minimum of 1,000 hours pilot in command (PIC) experience;
have a minimum of 500 hours multi-engine flight time;
I don't think there will be any 250 hr wonders any time soon...
In order to be considered for employment pilots must meet certain basic criteria:
possess a Canadian Airline Transport Pilot’s License (ATPL);
have a minimum of 1,500 hours fixed wing flight experience (only ½ of second officer time will be counted towards total flight experience);
have a minimum of 1,000 hours pilot in command (PIC) experience;
have a minimum of 500 hours multi-engine flight time;
I don't think there will be any 250 hr wonders any time soon...
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PeteThePilot
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Workopolis aside, I have also heard the rumour about college student pilots. Someone from ALPA needs to hear and clarify this since I am assuming they would be on a B type scale and that they could not upgrade for some time.
I too believe there are lots of pilots out there as well but if AC and WJ are still hiring (AC rumoured to be doing so for the next 10 years) then why would anyone come to ACJ? Why not hold on for the big boys. Goodness knows they are taking all kinds of pilots with all kinds of expereince. That may be the reason ACJ is having trouble getting qualified pilots.
I too believe there are lots of pilots out there as well but if AC and WJ are still hiring (AC rumoured to be doing so for the next 10 years) then why would anyone come to ACJ? Why not hold on for the big boys. Goodness knows they are taking all kinds of pilots with all kinds of expereince. That may be the reason ACJ is having trouble getting qualified pilots.
I think that is pretty unrealistic to think that the current AC hiring boom will last 10 years. Sure with fleet expansion and retirements it probably looks like a 10 year hiring trend but the reality is that AC is one 9/11, economic downturn or SARs repeat from a full stop on hiring and expansion. Enjoy it while it lasts as there will be changes (positive or negative) come wage re-opener in 2009 only 2 years away!PeteThePilot wrote:Workopolis aside, I have also heard the rumour about college student pilots. Someone from ALPA needs to hear and clarify this since I am assuming they would be on a B type scale and that they could not upgrade for some time.
I too believe there are lots of pilots out there as well but if AC and WJ are still hiring (AC rumoured to be doing so for the next 10 years) then why would anyone come to ACJ? Why not hold on for the big boys. Goodness knows they are taking all kinds of pilots with all kinds of expereince. That may be the reason ACJ is having trouble getting qualified pilots.
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Flightlevels
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This may be interesting, I would caution it though. You can teach anyone to fly an RJ or Dash. However when it comes to making a decision, that is where it separates a low time guy and a higher time guy. Is the college grad going to let the captain make a wrong decision? maybe not, but the odds are in the favour of the mistake happening. I think this is the wrong road to travel and from what I know about WJ's hiring pool I can't see why they would have to go there. I suspect this is just the colleges trying to promote thier programs. Think of the marketing tool they are trying to create.
Interestingly enough, the top student in my aviation class was killed in a Seneca accident in the north country, after getting himself disoriented. There is no magic in being the top student IMHO. It's just that - you're the top student - you aren't necessarily the better pilot.
I think this will most likely be met with fierce opposition from the Jazz pilot group.
My question is will these new 200 hour wonders be on a "B" scale or will they be paid the same as any new hire?
On one hand I totally disagree with lowering the starting wage at Jazz as it's already too low.
And on the other there is no fu@king way in hell anyone can convience me that any 200 hour pilot is worth the same as me or any experienced new hire already at Jazz or working the north.
As you can tell I'm apposed to this, and so is every pilot I've talked to.
Sure it can be done, but it is NOT the safest course of action given todays supply and demand.
No offense to any low time pilot, we all started out somewhere. Go up north, scare yourself a time or three, drink some beer, have some fun, get some stories. Don't be in a rush to "settle down" and go to an airline.
End of rant. Where's that beer...
Cheers.
My question is will these new 200 hour wonders be on a "B" scale or will they be paid the same as any new hire?
On one hand I totally disagree with lowering the starting wage at Jazz as it's already too low.
And on the other there is no fu@king way in hell anyone can convience me that any 200 hour pilot is worth the same as me or any experienced new hire already at Jazz or working the north.
As you can tell I'm apposed to this, and so is every pilot I've talked to.
Sure it can be done, but it is NOT the safest course of action given todays supply and demand.
No offense to any low time pilot, we all started out somewhere. Go up north, scare yourself a time or three, drink some beer, have some fun, get some stories. Don't be in a rush to "settle down" and go to an airline.
End of rant. Where's that beer...
Cheers.
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Well This is absolutely true!
I was in groundschool the other day and heard it from the horses mouth so to speak. They are talking with the council of aviation colleges, transport and the union and it has basically been agreed upon. No details as of yet but it looks like a total of 4 or 5 from the colleges every graduating year. Seneca is a good bet due to their RJ FTD which is quite the machine and is being taught by Jazz training guys.
A LOT of airlines have had similar programs for years and it has seemed to work.
Still pisses me off, guess I was born quite a few years to early.
I was in groundschool the other day and heard it from the horses mouth so to speak. They are talking with the council of aviation colleges, transport and the union and it has basically been agreed upon. No details as of yet but it looks like a total of 4 or 5 from the colleges every graduating year. Seneca is a good bet due to their RJ FTD which is quite the machine and is being taught by Jazz training guys.
A LOT of airlines have had similar programs for years and it has seemed to work.
Still pisses me off, guess I was born quite a few years to early.
KAG I understand you frustration, I like yourself paid my dues beyond belief to get a position with Jazz and it took 7 years after I gratuated from college but you have to understand that for the company to make decisions like this there has to be some type of reasoning behind it.
As for the capabilities of a 200hr pilot I do not deny, however my first job as well as a lot of the people I worked with was in the righ seat of a small turboprop flying north into some pretty short strips and I feel that it was extremely more demanding then what Im doing here at Jazz.
Just my opinion.
As for the capabilities of a 200hr pilot I do not deny, however my first job as well as a lot of the people I worked with was in the righ seat of a small turboprop flying north into some pretty short strips and I feel that it was extremely more demanding then what Im doing here at Jazz.
Just my opinion.
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Glen Quagmire
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The airlines in Europe are proof that this type of system works. Lufthansa for one has a large number of their pilots come from a cadet system and they seem to be doing just fine.
It's shitty that we had to flog around the north for years before we got a shot but thats the Canadian way, or was perhaps.
With that being said surely we all had fun doing it and it is perhaps some of the best flying you will do in your life. It's Flying these college kids will miss out on.
It's shitty that we had to flog around the north for years before we got a shot but thats the Canadian way, or was perhaps.
With that being said surely we all had fun doing it and it is perhaps some of the best flying you will do in your life. It's Flying these college kids will miss out on.
This hiring won't last long enough for them to hire out of colleges. Funny how these kids are counting on it. I was at the Beaver last night in YVR and overheard 5 guys working on their commercial licenses saying they are expecting to go directly to Air Canada or Jazz. I guess thats the attitude out there these days. Screw the ramp...Im going to Air Canada.
Like Glen said, its all about the journey, not the destination. Best flying I have done by far was starting out. I wouldn't have the same appreciation for where I am now without my first flying job. It's truly sad these guy would want to bypass that.
I think this industry is back asswards. I takes a hellova lot more skill to fly a shitbox plane in the mountains in shit weather than it does to fly a RJ across the country following the magenta line.
My two cents....don't be in a rush to get to the airlines. I don't think its all its cracked out to be and I know tons of guys/gals feel the same way. Enjoy what you're doing.
Like Glen said, its all about the journey, not the destination. Best flying I have done by far was starting out. I wouldn't have the same appreciation for where I am now without my first flying job. It's truly sad these guy would want to bypass that.
I think this industry is back asswards. I takes a hellova lot more skill to fly a shitbox plane in the mountains in shit weather than it does to fly a RJ across the country following the magenta line.
My two cents....don't be in a rush to get to the airlines. I don't think its all its cracked out to be and I know tons of guys/gals feel the same way. Enjoy what you're doing.
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Spruce Moose
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I understand where your all coming from, you had to work many hard years paying your dues to get where you are today. But lets say if this program happened back when you guys were in college and you were offered a position at jazz, would you have turned it down?
It would be an amazing opprotunity for a guy strait out of college.. at the same time I don't know if I would want to fly for an airline where most of the pilots are pi$$ed that i'm there.
It would be an amazing opprotunity for a guy strait out of college.. at the same time I don't know if I would want to fly for an airline where most of the pilots are pi$$ed that i'm there.
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bobcaygeon
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HEY KAGKAG wrote:I think this will most likely be met with fierce opposition from the Jazz pilot group.
My question is will these new 200 hour wonders be on a "B" scale or will they be paid the same as any new hire?
On one hand I totally disagree with lowering the starting wage at Jazz as it's already too low.
And on the other there is no fu@king way in hell anyone can convience me that any 200 hour pilot is worth the same as me or any experienced new hire already at Jazz or working the north.
As you can tell I'm apposed to this, and so is every pilot I've talked to.
Sure it can be done, but it is NOT the safest course of action given todays supply and demand.
No offense to any low time pilot, we all started out somewhere. Go up north, scare yourself a time or three, drink some beer, have some fun, get some stories. Don't be in a rush to "settle down" and go to an airline.
End of rant. Where's that beer...
Cheers.
Is it a newbie's fault that you devalued yourself by coming to Jazz for shit wages??? NOPE
What's the difference between that and a rocket scientist choosing to work a MCDonald's? Should he get paid more than starting wage??
I say bring em in and see if it works. Just cuz we bent over doesn't mean the next group should have too. Good for em. They will always be below you, so what do you care?? I found flying with green guys usually was a lot more enjoyable than flying with 1000 hr know it all's.
Jazz is a no-brainer relative to flying the bush
If you mean by March, no, since college students only graduate in May. It's a project they're testing to see if it works. There's no B scale wage. They're going to get the same wage anyone gets when they join. As for upgrades, that seems kind of a silly worry. Since it takes seven years to upgrade, do you think someone might have enough experience by then?bcflyer wrote:It won't happen any time soon.
In any case, I don't envy whoever these college people are. There are going to be some pretty high expectations and from the sounds of it, no line pilot is going to cut them any slack.
News flash.
200 hour pilots can fly a Dash 8 or CRJ or 777 for that matter if trained to a standard. Some better than 4000 hour metro/1900 pilot. If Jazz is looking at this option they should have no problem doing so. Why do people have a problem with this? If it works for Jazz then AC could be next.
My carriers hires 10-20% plus of its pilots out of college and this is not due to lack of applicants. We are a world leader in profitablity, stabilty, safety and reputation. The fact that 200 hour FO's sit in the right seat does nothing to change this. Most of the skippers I fly with joined as 200 hour pilots. Having now flown with hundreds of captains I can say the majority of the cadet types are on average are better all around operators than the ex military/experienced types who joined later in life. Just my observation. The key here is proper selection, and by that I don't mean that daddy is a 767 skipper. Proper selection and training will do it every time.
200 hour pilots can fly a Dash 8 or CRJ or 777 for that matter if trained to a standard. Some better than 4000 hour metro/1900 pilot. If Jazz is looking at this option they should have no problem doing so. Why do people have a problem with this? If it works for Jazz then AC could be next.
My carriers hires 10-20% plus of its pilots out of college and this is not due to lack of applicants. We are a world leader in profitablity, stabilty, safety and reputation. The fact that 200 hour FO's sit in the right seat does nothing to change this. Most of the skippers I fly with joined as 200 hour pilots. Having now flown with hundreds of captains I can say the majority of the cadet types are on average are better all around operators than the ex military/experienced types who joined later in life. Just my observation. The key here is proper selection, and by that I don't mean that daddy is a 767 skipper. Proper selection and training will do it every time.
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bobcaygeon
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bcflyer wrote:Have a look at pprune.com There are several accidents that happened overseas that wouldn't have happened in Canada. If you were a company, would you really hire someone right out of college when you have 4-5000hrs guys available.... It won't happen any time soon.
BCFLYER
There aren't a whole lot of 4-5000 hrs pilots left who will come to Jazz and stay very long. Westjet dropped their requirements to 2500hrs and they fly real airplanes. Can you really tell me that flying the dash 8/ RJ with dual UNS/TAWS, A/P into long paved runways with ILS's is a difficult job?
The only remotely challenging flying at Jazz is in the rocks and last time I checked in YVR+YYC , the captains have been there long enuf (+17 years) that f/o's are only needed to work the whiz wheel (when needed) and do walk-arounds in the cold.
I bet it happens this spring and there better not be a "B"scale.
"Money Talks, Bullshit Walks".....Westjet only became an attractive career move when they got their new pay scale last year. 90k per year in your 3rd year versus 50K per year at Jazz is not even close.....Jazz needs to realize that people will continue to leave because the pay is severly outdated......The college students will eventually wise up and leave when their parents kick them out of their basements and realize that more money is available at Westjet and many others.
Money isnt everything in your career but it sure is a damn big part of it....anyone who says it isn't, already have a fortune or is full of shit.
Money isnt everything in your career but it sure is a damn big part of it....anyone who says it isn't, already have a fortune or is full of shit.
