Jazz Hiring

Dark Helmet · Post by **Dark Helmet** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:04 pm

RB-211 wrote:News flash.

200 hour pilots can fly a Dash 8 or CRJ or 777 for that matter if trained to a standard. Some better than 4000 hour metro/1900 pilot. If Jazz is looking at this option they should have no problem doing so. Why do people have a problem with this? If it works for Jazz then AC could be next.

My carriers hires 10-20% plus of its pilots out of college and this is not due to lack of applicants. We are a world leader in profitablity, stabilty, safety and reputation. The fact that 200 hour FO's sit in the right seat does nothing to change this. Most of the skippers I fly with joined as 200 hour pilots. Having now flown with hundreds of captains I can say the majority of the cadet types are on average are better all around operators than the ex military/experienced types who joined later in life. Just my observation. The key here is proper selection, and by that I don't mean that daddy is a 767 skipper. Proper selection and training will do it every time.

Good Point

So how is Jazz recruiting these low time pilots. Are they just selecting the top 3 grads and giving them a free pass. Or are they going to be required to apply like everyone else, do the interview, sim eval, and medical like everyone else. I think they should do the latter, and if they pass....welcome aboard, if they don't make the cut, them they get mail.

If people are claiming that a 200 hours pilot can fly a RJ, or Dash 8 etc, then they should be put through the same proccess as as the OTS people. they should be offered the opportunity to join Jazz and earn it as opposed to just be handed to them.

Skyhigh

I agree with you, no matter how much experience you have 200, or 2000, or even 20000. You are going to jump ship whenever something better comes up.

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:07 pm

What I don't understand is how these FOs will ever be able to upgrade at Jazz. It sounds like if this happens, then these kids will be FOs for life.

If Jazz is considering this, they will probably end up offering a guarenteed interview to the top students once they meet a minimum standard (i.e. 1500hrs). I can't see them giving a guarenteed job to a 200hr pilot. A guarenteed interview sounds much more realistic.

In the USA, regionals offer programs similar to this. If you do your training at a certain school, you get a guarenteed interview at selected regionals once you have a certain amount of time (and this time requirement is lower compared to outside hirees).

Pratt X 3 · Post by **Pratt X 3** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:33 pm

C-HRIS wrote:In the USA, regionals offer programs similar to this. If you do your training at a certain school, you get a guarenteed interview at selected regionals once you have a certain amount of time (and this time requirement is lower compared to outside hirees).

Take a look at the payscales at some of those regionals in the states. $19000 a year to start. Flying RJ's. Thats the worst part of this idea.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.info/air ... ional.html

bobcaygeon · Post by **bobcaygeon** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:01 pm

C-HRIS
Jazz's predecessors have in the past gotten an exemption on the ATR rule for a few pilot's hired in the late 80's. They had been longtime FO's who didn't have the command time when their number came up. TC is all about who you know.....

PS For a quicker upgrade, buy your OPs. mgr a gallon of bubblegum ice cream once in awhile. He really likes it.

Flightlevels · Post by **Flightlevels** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:38 pm

all the more reason to tell my friends not to fly on jazz. I respect people with experience. I don't trust the judgement of someone who is just enjoying a view. It all has to do when something out of the ordinary happens. There is no experience to rely on only that of his/her captain, and we all know that captains make the best and only decision right

A good example is the delta RJ that took off on the wrong runway last year killing everyone...I hope this isn't just to save pay. oh well only mho.

socrates · Post by **socrates** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:59 pm

skyhigh wrote:"Money Talks, Bullshit Walks".....Westjet only became an attractive career move when they got their new pay scale last year. 90k per year in your 3rd year versus 50K per year at Jazz is not even close.....Jazz needs to realize that people will continue to leave because the pay is severly outdated......The college students will eventually wise up and leave when their parents kick them out of their basements and realize that more money is available at Westjet and many others.

Money isnt everything in your career but it sure is a damn big part of it....anyone who says it isn't, already have a fortune or is full of shit.

Sorry bud,

I don't wanna make 90 000k my third year at Jazz cause in my 4th year I'll be unemployed due to the fact they went bankrupt. AC doesn't pay jazz enough under CPA to pay us 90 000k a year to fly rjs and dash 8's. If you look at similar companies in the US we pretty much get paid the same or better to fly the equipment we do.

timbuck · Post by **timbuck** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:53 am

Flightlevels wrote:all the more reason to tell my friends not to fly on jazz. I respect people with experience. I don't trust the judgement of someone who is just enjoying a view. It all has to do when something out of the ordinary happens. There is no experience to rely on only that of his/her captain, and we all know that captains make the best and only decision right A good example is the delta RJ that took off on the wrong runway last year killing everyone...I hope this isn't just to save pay. oh well only mho.

I couldn't agree more Flightlevels.

skyhigh · Post by **skyhigh** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:07 am

Socrates, I see your point. I am not saying pay us 90k per year but 50k is really low.

You cannot compare us with Regionals in the US. Jazz is a career for most guys whereas in the States it is purely a stepping stone. Secondly, FOs there may get 20k per year to start but upgrades are about 2 years and then you'll be making 70-80k per year as Captain....And as we know Jazz upgrades are 8 years in the East and 17 in the West....Comparing Apples and Oranges really.

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:04 am

This is a two page thread about nothing. They haven't hired any 250hr wonders and I highly doubt they are going to. There are still more than enough guys wanting to come to Jazz. As for people saying things in a GS course, once you've been here awhile you'll figure out that 99.9% of it is complete BS. Remember all the talk of shiny new Q-400's?? It was a guarenteed thing according to one of the western managers a couple of years ago. Still haven't seen one on the property. Just one of many "stories" that come out of the mouths of Managment.

abflyguy · Post by **abflyguy** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:48 pm

The hiring from the colleges is a go, they are just working out the details! I have heard it from a union person too.

For those that say they won't fly Jazz because of this, does that mean you won't fly BA or Luftansa or a large number of European carriers because they have the same sort of programs. Seems like an uneducated response just because it is Jazz.

Flightlevels · Post by **Flightlevels** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:15 pm

I can't comment on the BA or Lufthansa programs because I don't know the details. I do know however in my 20 yrs of flying what decisions based on experience pilots tend to make. A new 250 hr pilot will more than likely go along with what the skip says, why? because they either have never experienced anything like that before. ie low visibility/ RFI reports etc. I wouldn't put my family on that plane. I don't trust that FO. I recall what a handfull the new guys were in the king air let alone a multi million dollar jet with 5 times the distractions in a busy airspace. No thanks. again my opinion only.

timbuck · Post by **timbuck** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:54 pm

Flightlevels wrote:I can't comment on the BA or Lufthansa programs because I don't know the details. I do know however in my 20 yrs of flying what decisions based on experience pilots tend to make. A new 250 hr pilot will more than likely go along with what the skip says, why? because they either have never experienced anything like that before. ie low visibility/ RFI reports etc. I wouldn't put my family on that plane. I don't trust that FO. I recall what a handfull the new guys were in the king air let alone a multi million dollar jet with 5 times the distractions in a busy airspace. No thanks. again my opinion only.

Again, well said.

Chuck D · Post by **Chuck D** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:59 pm

I knew it was only a matter of time before I comment on this one, so here we go. There seems to be myths of the "200 hour Wonder" that some can't get out of their head.

Being a Captain for a major European airline, who does hire low time pilots I can honestly say the that some of you need to leave the Great White North, get away from the Tim Horton's coffee and see what goes on in the rest of the world. By the way some of you go on, British Airways, Lufthansa, EasyJet, KLM, Air France, SN Brussells plus many others, would be falling out of the sky or should have run out of Captains 20 years ago.

The "200 Hour Wonder" who is properly trained and screened (SEE RB-211's post) are perfectly capable of being an F/O on a jet. For those of you who will "never fly if there is a 200 hour wonder in the right seat" enjoy your small world, and hope that Air Canada expands their route network or WestJet goes international because you aren't going to see much outside of Canada.

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:57 pm

. D wrote: The "200 Hour Wonder" who is properly trained and screened (SEE RB-211's post) are perfectly capable of being an F/O on a jet.

Most of the 200 hrs wonders that are hired are part of a cadet program run by the Airline are they not? They are trained to be part of a multi-crew jet environment from the time they start school. They require more training which in turn costs the company more money. It works in other countries but I still don't see the need for it in Canada.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:08 pm

Change Canada's entire training program to groom a newbie to opperate in a multi crew jet enviroment from day one, and yes it would work. But I can't think of any students I taught (myself included) that could jump from a 172/seneca to a dash 8 sim eval and pass, let alone an RJ course.
Not with Canada's current standart of training. Throw enough sim time at anyone, and yes anyone could pass.

DavidClark · Post by **DavidClark** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:20 pm

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DavidClark · Post by **DavidClark** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:22 pm

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timbuck · Post by **timbuck** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:30 pm

Hey DC

What's a FTD?

DavidClark · Post by **DavidClark** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:33 pm

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Flightlevels · Post by **Flightlevels** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:36 pm

I don't think anyone has questioned the ability to train the individual. You can train anyone irreguardless of thier time. The biggest thing again I see(in the sim too) is the poor decisions the low time pilots make. In behavior interviews, the ones with less experience have less to draw on. Did anyone here learn anything from your past experiences? I think most have. The evidence that I have seen has given me reason enough. Again I suspect this is just a college marketing tool to get students. I agree with whomever that we are definately not in need of hiring this calabre of pilot here in Canada and I for one hope the major airlines here don't go that route.

skyhigh · Post by **skyhigh** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:43 pm

Not really fair if a student gets a bypass right into a course whereas everyone else had to do an interview, sim eval and so forth.....I can see them being invited to the process, but to get "parachuted" in really is a kick in the teeth.

timbuck · Post by **timbuck** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:59 pm

thanks DC

Chuck D · Post by **Chuck D** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:04 pm

double posting...sorry

Chuck D · Post by **Chuck D** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:06 pm

[quote="bcflyer
Most of the 200 hrs wonders that are hired are part of a cadet program run by the Airline are they not? [/quote]

No they are not usually part of a cadet program. Most of the 200 Hour Wonders get their licences the same way a Canadian gets theirs. PPL/CPL/Multi-IFR at their local flying school. Although, in order to get hired on a multi pilot aircraft the must complete a 20 hour multi crew co-operation course.

Some of you seem to want to question the decision making skills of these 200 Hour Wonders. They don't have to make the decisions....that is why they are F/Os not Captains. They are great at providing good support, information and CRM to help make a good decision.

What a great way to groom a Captian...have an F/O with good experience on type, and seeing the different scenarios over the course of a few years within the airline environment, then let them take the helm when the are ready for the upgrade.

Flightlevels · Post by **Flightlevels** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:15 pm

The airlines shouldn't be the training schools you are implying, You seem to think that the captain at the airline will have all the answers. I'll ask what happens when the captain is incapacitated in a situation that might be this candidates 2nd week on the job and where is he/she going to pull the experience to get out of the demanding situation, from...the CRM/human factors course or maybe the flight attendant...hmmm. still doesn't sell me as some people are implying. great way to groom alright! luck has been on your side obviously..tell that to the accident victims family. Now back to my Timmies coffee.