Safety Management System

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trey kule
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Post by trey kule »

Pushy boss wrote
And yes I'm an old guy who has been to my fair share of funerals under the old system. Maybe it's time to try something new.
It is not new. What actually is new is TC has now put an acronym to it, and wants it all documented. Good compnies have always been proactive in trying to determine potential risks and deal with them.
The problem in the past is that if you documented them you were likely to have some dealings with enforecement. Everything, and I mean everything, that the inspectors felt was a violation was sent to enforcement for an opinion,,,and action.

Is that going to change? In a word no. And the sheep will provide the necessary documention to help TC enforce it.

to repeat myself, TC does not even have this whole thing thought through...they admit that.. but that is not stopping them from going ahead and implementing it...

I wonder what you and the others are going to say about the failure of SMS when the next Sonic blue or whoever comes to light.....Good compnaies are already doing it. Bad companies will cook the paperwork...nothing is going to change except more paperwork..good for bloated ministries...Bad for small operators.

Seems like alot of TC folks have an interest in this topic and want to make sure we all get the proper message. Good topic widow.
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Post by Cat Driver »

I wonder if it might be more beneficial to start a completely new thread where only those who will post openly in their real names can discuss their concerns and ideas.

None of us are without fault, non of us can be expected to know everything.

But when discussing a subject as serious as aviation safety and how to regulate and monitor it what is wrong with talking in the open identifying not only what your toughts and ideas are but who you are?

Wouldn't that clear up some doubts as to the agendas of those contributing?

Or am I expecting to much?
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Post by Dust Devil »

there is already a forum for people using their real names.
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Post by neilaroberts »

pushyboss wrote:ts.

And yes I'm an old guy who has been to my fair share of funerals under the old system. Maybe it's time to try something new.
Excellent post Pushyboss...

My observation of aviation safety has left me with the conclusion that I CANNOT take that aircraft up there and do something to it that no one has ever done before. I cannot hit the ground in a way that has been completely unexplored by my ancestors.

I'm ready to try something new, too.
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Post by Doc »

SMS...well, you can have a whole system follow me (the pilot) around 24/7. They can check my fuel, create piles of paperwork documenting my preflights. 15 different people can check my weather for me. Personal can be given fancy titles. Paper can be shuffled. "I's" can be dotted, and "T's" can be crossed. This can all be filed in moldy boxes in the hangar until the second coming of Christ. Even longer. Transport can do their audits. The equipment can be shiny and new. I can take urine tests, drug tests, breath tests, rectal exams, (my fav) eye tests, eye, ear, throat and specimen. And they can document that. In triplicate. I "the pilot" can still fly that perfect airplane into the ground, killing all aboard. And where will SMS have gotten us?
No thanks...I'll wipe my own ass, thank you.
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Post by Dust Devil »

Doc wrote:SMS...well, you can have a whole system follow me (the pilot) around 24/7. They can check my fuel, create piles of paperwork documenting my preflights. 15 different people can check my weather for me. Personal can be given fancy titles. Paper can be shuffled. "I's" can be dotted, and "T's" can be crossed. This can all be filed in moldy boxes in the hangar until the second coming of Christ. Even longer. Transport can do their audits. The equipment can be shiny and new. I can take urine tests, drug tests, breath tests, rectal exams, (my fav) eye tests, eye, ear, throat and specimen. And they can document that. In triplicate. I "the pilot" can still fly that perfect airplane into the ground, killing all aboard. And where will SMS have gotten us?
No thanks...I'll wipe my own ass, thank you.
Hmmmm maybe UAV's are the answer. take crazy suicidal pilots like yourself out of the cockpit.
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Post by Doc »

When you have as many accident free hours as I have, call me.
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Post by Dust Devil »

Doc wrote:When you have as many accident free hours as I have, call me.
That's good but if your going to throw a safety program out the window because in the end the pilot can just smash an airplane into the ground then you have serious problems.
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Post by Widow »

Dust Devil wrote:Had an sms system been in place a pilot may have identified the lack of a good flight following system in the operation where your husband was sadly killed and steps may have been taken to solve the problem before it happened.
Seems to me someone long before the pilot should have noticed there was something wrong with the flight following system. Am I really wrong in thinking thta?
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Post by Dust Devil »

Widow wrote:
Dust Devil wrote:Had an sms system been in place a pilot may have identified the lack of a good flight following system in the operation where your husband was sadly killed and steps may have been taken to solve the problem before it happened.
Seems to me someone long before the pilot should have noticed there was something wrong with the flight following system. Am I really wrong in thinking thta?
Absolutly your right. That's why you should be trying to champion SMS rather then trying to hinder it.
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Post by Doc »

My point is really simple. The safety program has been used for many years. It has a name now. That's the only difference. Do you think every flight is a one man show? Far from it. Just because we haven't been required to document it in the past, doesn't make it a better system today. It's just like CRM and PDM. They have been around for many years before TC stuffed them down our throats. Crews have worked together(some didn't, and some still don't) in the past to overcome problems. Pilots still make really shitty decisions despite the required TC PDM! Seems they always will. All this "gingerbread" is doing nothing to improve safety. Just look at the accidents already this year alone! Poor, and even shitty decisions are at fault in pretty well every case. But, hell, let's take more courses! Let's justify TC's very existence. Whatever we can do to place the blame elsewhere? It just couldn't be as simple as pilots fucking up, now could it??
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Post by trey kule »

Dusty. I know you seem to like SMS...but the fact is this simple. If it had been a reputable company, a system like this would have been in place. If they are not SMS (flavor of the year) would not help.

It is ultimately all about management. TC has fostered a management cult that is paperwork orientated. When it comes to small operators there is nothing in their audits that looks at what the management actually does.
In the UK for example it is much different. The UK maintainance guy actually crawls through the a/c and inspects them. Operational people actualy look at what management is doing.
Let me revisit the TC accident I mentioned before. The CP didnt even live where the company operated. TC would tell them they were coming and he would fly up there to be there. They knew about this. They ignored.
It is my opinion that TC should be taking some of the responsibilty for this accident....but alas..the paperwork was all in order.

I know this sounds like a broken record, but Good companies have always been doing this. SMS will not force bad companies into doing it.
The flight following system you referred to may have been mentioned by other people. and if SMS had been in place what makes you think it would have been documented.

I am actually very much in favor of the accountable executive, even if it seems everyone is accountable for everything (and there are some issues that have to be resolved to properly implement it which TC seems willing to ignore).....but why, I will never know, has transport not instutited an accountable executive to take responsibility for their inspectors' actions. Things might change if a manager at TC would get fired and be held out to be liable if one of their underlings acted inappropriately....

This is real world....
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Last edited by trey kule on Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Cat Driver »

" Had an sms system been in place a pilot may have identified the lack of a good flight following system in the operation where your husband was sadly killed and steps may have been taken to solve the problem before it happened. "
Good God, proper flight following is as old as I can remember.

Even some of the more " Iffy " float plane operators I flew for had manditory flight following using HF radios...HF wasen't perfect but it worked most of the time..

.....and as I have said many times before FM works great out here on the west coast and it is very inexpensive.

SMS may or may not improve the safety record, that will depend on the intregity of the company and its employees....

....BUT something as simple as flight following has been around for decades.
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Post by Dust Devil »

Ya ok it's a lost cause. Shitty people are everywhere and we should just say @#$! it.

it is the real world after all.
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Post by Doc »

HF radios....or...where phone sex would not work!
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Post by Widow »

Dust Devil wrote:Absolutly your right. That's why you should be trying to champion SMS rather then trying to hinder it.
When I started this thread, I wasn't sure how I felt about SMS, and I was trying to learn about it, and what everyone in the industry thought - to decide whether it was a cause I should champion. In our case, somebody determined that the dispatcher didn't need a radio, or periodic check-in, for flight following under a type d system. Would that determination have changed under SMS? As far as I can tell, it would not.
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Post by Living_Sky »

Reposted from the C-6 thread

A lot of great points have been raised in this thread, from a lot of established points of view. None of us are wrong... but then, none of us are completely right (myself included)

Quoting Widow:
Quote:
Again, I agree that pilot error is often the last link in the chain of events leading to an accident. Perhaps the pilot isn't experienced, or educated enough to make the right decision

Pilot error is not the last link in the chain of events, as much as it is the investigators first cop out. Somewhere down the line every accident comes down to a flaw in the Safety Management System.

For example...

The following is a ficticious scenario - Prop spun off the engine resulting in a forced approach over rocky terrain killing all on board -

Some might feel its sufficient to say the cause of the accident was the fact that the prop separated from the aircraft, forcing the pilot to make a decision to land without power.

why...
Investigation of the crank showed broken prop bolts at 4 locations
Conclusion is therefor that the prop seperated due to sheared prop bolts

why...
Tests of the remaining 'bolt' segments show rotational stress at the point of fracture indicating they may have been over-tightened
Conclusion therefore is that the prop separated from the aircraft because the prop bolts sheared off, because they had been overtightened

why...
Reveiwing the maintenance logs, the AMO was contacted and further investigation ensued. Speaking with the AME logged as having worked on the aircraft, investigators found the actual torque wrench used. Upon testing, investigators find the wrench is calibrated 50lb lighter than it should be.
Conclusion therefore is that the prop separated from the aircraft because the prop bolts sheared off, because they had been overtightened because the torque wrench used was calibrated 50lb lower than true

why...
Investigating the AMO's SMS, Investigators find record of several reported instances of faulty or inadequate equipment; but no indication of equipment repair, training, maintenance or replacement.
Conclusion therefore is that the prop separated from the aircraft because the prop bolts sheared off, because they had been overtightened because the torque wrench used was calibrated 50lb lower than true, because the company had an inadequate management system in place to replace, maintain or inspect equipment.


Now this was a ficticious scenario, however... I don't beleive in Pilot Error, nor do I beleive in 'Human Error' as its called in other industries.
- uneducated pilot decisions = SMS has failed to provide proper orientation/education
- unforseen circumstances = SMS has failed to encompass all available situations
- pilot 'Bad Attitude' = SMS has failed to provide disciplinary guidelines
- Faulty Equipment/Facilities = SMS has failed to put proper inspection system in place to identify needs.
- and so on.....

The key word is system... Safety Management System is just that, and no matter what type of situation... 9 times out of 10... no... 99 times out of 100, it's the system that has failed!

I am an occupational Health and Safety Coordinator with 15 years experience in the patch... drilling rigs which started out as one of the most dangerous places to work, and which, through use of SMS's have now grown into one of the safest. (AB WCB Statistics 2005)

The SMS systems presented by TC are terrific... some may find this odd.. but using parts of their system, I am likely the only airshow performer in NA with a safety manual. In presenting us with the system however... TC needs to focus training on their own personnel to allow for uniformity and understanding the requirements placed on Employers as well as employees as they relate to SMS's, The Aviation OH&S regs, and The Canada Labor Code.

We need the same informed answer from the first TC phone... as the next.
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Last edited by Living_Sky on Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Dust Devil »

Cat Driver wrote:
Good God, proper flight following is as old as I can remember.

Even some of the more " Iffy " float plane operators I flew for had manditory flight following using HF radios...HF wasen't perfect but it worked most of the time.
So it worked most of the time? what about when it didn't work what did they do?

My company for instance is run by fairly young and compared to some of the people on this forum inexperienced people. We are also involved in a fairly new type of operation which has a number of safety challenges with it unique to what we do. SMS is perfect in this case as it helps us to identify hazards before they occur. This past summer when we we're in pond inlet flight following was very difficult as the sat phone never worked up there so we adapted and managed to use e-mail. However depending on weather that was sketchy at times. However using our SMS system we did our best to minimize the risks. Were risks still present? Absolutly. But we did our best and everyone involved knew what risks there were.

As has been said before SMS is what you make of it. Those that wish to dismiss it will get nothing out of it. Those that embrace it will see it's benefit.
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Post by Doc »

The way I understand it, if the system of flight watch is deemed to be acceptable, and documented by all concerned, that would be about it. It's all about the paper work.
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Post by Dust Devil »

trey kule wrote:
This is real world....
I was a perforator for Computalog aka Precision Drilling. When Precision bought us out we joined a company that had thousands of employees and hundereds of drilling rigs, hundereds of service rigs, thousands of trucks and other peices of equipment. They also had a safety program called "Target Zero". Meaning zero loss time injuries per year. Was that a realistic goal that conforms to the realities of the "real world" likely not. Should the whole program have been scrapped for setting those goals? I don't think so. It did make a difference. Were there guys who dismissed it and said "here we go more paperwork" absolutly there was. But the majority took the program to heart and it did make things safer.
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Post by Living_Sky »

Doc... in reference to your comment earlier... and it seems your attitude toward sms...
When you have as many accident free hours as I have, call me.
seems to me you are saying that safety is no issue, and that your superior skill is all that is required....

I wonder if you might rephrase that statement to... 'When you're as Lucky as I am., call me'?
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Post by Doc »

Well then, it seems you read all that well. Take the time to read my other posts. And a few of the others as well. You can use phonics to sound out the big words.
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Post by trey kule »

DD.

Perhaps I am not making myself clear. SMS is not new. It is something that good companies have been doing.
Bad companies wont do it, even if it is mandated.

TC is re inventing the wheel, except it will ow be a mandated requirement. They have put a spin on it. cute promotional campaign . But it is not a well thought out plan .
Try pointing out to TC any faults in the implementation program and you will a. find yourself listening to the TC mantra that they understand it is still in Beta testing for small operators, they are aware of the shortcomings etc. etc. But they are still going ahead.

My biggest concern with this whole thing is that I dont think it is really going to make a positive difference to most companies, and no difference to the slim balls. It will mean just more paperwork and more opportunity if their is problem for TC to point the finger of blame.

Widow wrote:When I started this thread, I wasn't sure how I felt about SMS, and I was trying to learn about it, and what everyone in the industry thought - to decide whether it was a cause I should champion. In our case, somebody determined that the dispatcher didn't need a radio, or periodic check-in, for flight following under a type d system. Would that determination have changed under SMS? As far as I can tell, it would not.

Why is it you can see and understand all this and those who are in the industry can not? boggles my mind.

[/quote]
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Post by Doc »

Living sky...how much "skill" does it take not to go below limits? To carry enough gas? To check the weather? Not to fly too much overweight? To keep a clean wing? It's not "skill", it's not doing anything really stupid! And, that's what SMS is all about, right? Except with paper work. But this has been covered. I check my OWN airplane. I check my OWN wx, etc. etc. And no, I don't need TC to force something I'm already doing down my throat.
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Post by Dust Devil »

trey kule wrote:DD.

Perhaps I am not making myself clear. SMS is not new. It is something that good companies have been doing.
Bad companies wont do it, even if it is mandated.

TC is re inventing the wheel, except it will ow be a mandated requirement. They have put a spin on it. cute promotional campaign . But it is not a well thought out plan .
Try pointing out to TC any faults in the implementation program and you will a. find yourself listening to the TC mantra that they understand it is still in Beta testing for small operators, they are aware of the shortcomings etc. etc. But they are still going ahead.

My biggest concern with this whole thing is that I dont think it is really going to make a positive difference to most companies, and no difference to the slim balls. It will mean just more paperwork and more opportunity if their is problem for TC to point the finger of blame.

Widow wrote:When I started this thread, I wasn't sure how I felt about SMS, and I was trying to learn about it, and what everyone in the industry thought - to decide whether it was a cause I should champion. In our case, somebody determined that the dispatcher didn't need a radio, or periodic check-in, for flight following under a type d system. Would that determination have changed under SMS? As far as I can tell, it would not.

Why is it you can see and understand all this and those who are in the industry can not? boggles my mind.
[/quote]

Ok you win. All we are doing is beating a dead horse.

I should probably try to get some work done today instead of just refeshing this thread all day long.

Cheers
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