Jazz Hiring

[Cloud 9]

The airlines shouldn't be the training schools you are implying, You seem to think that the captain at the airline will have all the answers. I'll ask what happens when the captain is incapacitated in a situation that might be this candidates 2nd week on the job and where is he/she going to pull the experience to get out of the demanding situation, from...the CRM/human factors course or maybe the flight attendant...hmmm. still doesn't sell me as some people are implying. great way to groom alright! luck has been on your side obviously..tell that to the accident victims family. Now back to my Timmies coffee.

Couldn't agree more.

[KAG]

david clark
The instructor your referring to was in my initial Jazz ground school, nice guy, and sharp. I can tell you from training Seneca graduates, and others, (myself a college grad) you cannot replace experience (read hours) for someone spoon-feeding you knowledge from any book you can buy at Calgary pilot supply. Sorry to burst you bubble but comparing Canada to the rest of the world is comparing apples to oranges, there trained with heavy Jet ops in mind from the start, were not – we have more steps.
I don’t give a shit what type of single/multi twin piston you did your training on, there all the same. It’s not the same as jumping into a dash or an RJ and doing two crew ops (forget handling the plane), in a stressful environment. Sure in some ways it’s easier than what's done up north, but then again, I’ve personally seen your seneca peers struggle on a king air, let alone a Jazz course. Don’t think cause you have a degree from Seneca it’s going to come easy – it’s not. You have nothing more than a license to learn. No more than the fella from Harv’s Air Service. You just have more to forget learning how to deal with real life aviation in Canada.

The FTD you have is a great tool; use it to its full advantage. You can master handling the RJ, know its systems, and SOP’s.
But how are you going to handle a Captain who is doing something wrong? The stress of an actual emergency? Even a real missed approach? How about actual IMC in turbulence, in icing? Thunderstorms? Poor runway conditions? You need to know how to deal with attitudes, different personalities, stresses. This is stuff not taught in school.
It’s not rocket science, but it’s not as easy as it sounds either.

[complexintentions]

So then, are RB211 and . D really equating Seneca College or Selkirk or Mount Royal programs with the quality of the selection and training of the cadet ab initio programs at BA/KLM/Emirates?

Come on. If you had actually ever spent some time at the Emirates Aviation College, for example, you would realize that's not exactly an honest comparison.

Now if it had been announced that Air Canada was going to start their own cadet training program I would be more inclined to believe it could be true. But dressing up Transport Canada exams and calling them MET 101 and charging a fortune, just isn't the same thing as what BA/KLM/EK have in place.

It's a marketing ploy by the schools, same old same old. Gets the kids all excited, and then off they go to the right seat of a clapped out Navajo. Maybe a BE200 if they know who to suck up to. There may really be some HR experiment in the works, I don't know or care, but it really will make a Jazz captain a babysitter if true. And I don't care if this enrages someone with 200 hours, I would say the same thing about myself at that stage and ironically, it's only the intervening years that allows me to even process that judgement.

There are still experienced guys ready to go - today. The culture and demographics of Canada just aren't the same as Europe or Asia or India, where there is very little or no GA pool to draw from. Guys working overseas should know better, they're just muddying the water of the argument.

[Bede]

I am a Seneca student... I can neither confirm nor deny the allegations, but as many people have already stated, this goes on all around the world, Canada (jazz for that matter) is merely catching up. All the training that i have received on the CRJ FTD has made me very confident in my skills and Knowledge..

And yes Jazz pilots teach us in the CRJ FTD.. so if they would not feel safe flying with a certain student, there is no way that students is going to Jazz.... if Jazz is even hiring College students that is

I'm glad you feel so confident with all that FTD training. I had 20 times the hours you do when I got on with Jazz plus I had actual sim training. I also felt confident. Then I got on my first flight and crapped myself.

[squawk 7600]

What a bunch of crap this is! There is no way in hell this will ever happen...get with the program David Clark. There are thousands of qualified pilots in Canada far more capable than you 200 hr students with your 7.2 hr's of RJ FTD time. Do you really think because you have a couple of hours in a static sim that you have gained the right to take a Jazz job from a qualified KIng Air or Beech 1900 pilot? I sure as hell think NOT!! These guys have a tonne of experience...both Level D sim and IFR flying. That translates into great decision making skills and good hands and feet.

David Clarke, let me ask you....how much ice have you seen at 10,000'? How many times have your flaps failed while on approach prompting you to "go around" so you could pull out the manual and see if you are able to land on that runway flapless? How many 30 kt crosswind landings have you done to minimums onto an icy runway? I'm guessing you 200 hr students haven't seen much of that...but just a hunch.

Don't let the College fill your heads with false dreams...it is only a marketing ploy because that program's enrollment has dropped over the past fews years due to lack of government funding.

Now if I'm wrong and it really is in the works, you won't see many if any college grads get hired at Jazz. Just my opinion.

[Dark Helmet]

We had this argument before, and it is the same things.

Jazz pilots who actually work at Jazz say it will not work. Then you get a European gents saying that it could work because it works in Europe. Ok I don't have any idea how things work in Europe, but do you guys have any idea how things work here?

Like KAG mentioned A lot of the Jazz guys (including myself) have flown with 200 hours pilots on our previous jobs. And yes we were babysitters for the most part. Don't get me wrong, I had the pleasure of flying with some very sharp FO's but they still lacked the overall experience, and decision making, and it showed.

You can teach a monkey to fly an airplane, but you can't teach someone how to think and make decisions. That comes with experience.

Flying a Dash or RJ at Jazz may be easier than flying a BE20 up in YUX, but it is not easier than flying circuits on a 152, or an IFR approach in VMC conditions out of YAV.

Can this be done..........possibly, but they would have inplement new training procedure that would cost more. Not worth it for Jazz. Look at Westjet for example, they changed their requirements (yes they lowered the time) but they also changed the type of experience they are looking for simply to keep trg costs down.

Unless there is a real shortage of experienced drivers, it makes no sense to do this. Period.

[DavidClark]

-------------

[TopperHarley]

I also don't agree with the comparison between Canada and Europe/Asia. In EU and AS, the standards are much higher. More exams and more strict testing. Also, cadets are not trained to 200 hrs, but they will have much more time and will have a frozen ATP. I believe Cathay even does training on twin turbines and jets for their cadets before they ever touch the 747 sim. And these cadet training programs last a long time.

[TopperHarley]

And another thing to add...

As a college student, you might be really excited about the idea of getting hired into an airline right away. But if you ask any pilot here, Im sure they will tell you they all enjoyed the journey to where they were. I graduated 3 years from university and to be honest, I would have jumped at the offer from Jazz if this was around. But in hindsight, I'm having fun building my experience and confidence. Move to different places, try different jobs, etc, that's what it is all about. Don't rush it or else you will become bitter!

Pilots in their twenties are always rushing to get to the airlines. And once they get their, they are rushing to get to their retirement. It really boggles my mind. In the end, it's all the same.

Here is a link to an article that KAG posted a while ago. There's a lot of wisdom in it; http://www.homebiztools.com/journey.htm

[victorwooten]

As crazy as it sounds, some flight colleges are actually working on this program. This is a test run, it might not work out, nothing is carved in stone, but here's the plan. Students from a bunch of colleges, Mount Royal, Seneca, Confederation, Sault, Selkrik, will be chosen for an award, I forget what they called it, and will be interviewed by Jazz over a few days. Some will be chosen as pilots for Jazz on the Dash, or CRJ.

[cheeky cough]

I posted this last year.

CC


Yes, friends, as the singer said, “the times they are a changin’...” We have entered an era of Pay-For-Training/Pay-For-A-Job. But, I don’t mean the PFT where a pilot pays for his/her airline ground school and flight training. I mean the PFT practiced by US aviation universities. That’s right, our own schools are practicing PFT right before our very eyes. How?? Here are a couple examples:

1. Come to one large mid-western school in the northern plains, and participate in their highly regarded program for selected students. At the end of 4 years, find yourself assigned as an F/O in a 4-engine regional jet with a large regional airline. Yes! You! Mr./Ms. newly-minted commercial pilot. Just sign up with us, pay your money, and away you go. We taught you all you need to know... By the way, several captains with the major airline affiliated with the regional describe this situation as a “CRM nightmare”.

2. Come to a large beach-front school near the Southeastern branch of Mickey Mouse World, and get a job with a large regional. Maybe even a type-rating on their brand new BE-1900 or B-737 sims (Level D, of course). Again, pay your money, get your degree, we’ll get you “in” with a regional and you can bypass all those poor slobs that are getting real experience...

While I will be the last one to knock giving opportunities to those who have earned them, I will be the first to say “Whoa” when we get ahead of ourselves. The last thing we want to do is create a situation that “sets-up” our future pilots for failure. Let’s step back and examine what we need in this industry. We need proficient, knowledgeable, educated, well-rounded pilots. We need pilots who are well-schooled in regulatory issues, aeronautics, aerodynamics, CRM, human factors, aircraft technological advances, advanced avionics, and safety. These same pilots must also be able to fly, and be able to handle the airplane and manage its systems in all types of weather, ATC/airport congestion, and in unforeseen situations. And these pilots must be able to contribute to the success of the flight as a fully-functioning member of a two- or three-pilot crew.

How do we “create” these pilots of tomorrow? Education, flight training, and CRM training are major elements of this training. First, they need to be educated. While a 4-year degree is not a requirement to be a good pilot, the 4-year degree is the accepted standard used by Human Resource managers at most large carriers (regional and major) to screen candidates for educational accomplishments. The hiring boom that has begun may lead to a supply-and-demand situation that dictates reduction or elimination of this requirement, but don’t bet on it. “Educated” is a broad term, but should mean schooling in the subject areas that I listed as necessary for a good pilot, plus a well-rounded general education. The aviation colleges seem to do a pretty good job of educating our future pilots. The technical education offered by these schools is superb. Secondly, the pilot of tomorrow, like the pilot of today, needs real flight time and experience. The examples that follow are actual situations that have occurred at aviation colleges (large and small) that involve creative (and illegal) logging of flight time:

1. Two pilots in a Multi-engine airplane, with a CFI in back. All 3 logging PIC time.

2. Two pilots going to NIFA in a CE-150. No “hood”. Neither a CFI. Both logging PIC time.

3. Pilots logging time in a simulator/FTD as “Multi” and “Total” flight time.

4. Pilot on jump-seat of a B-727. Pilot’s father is the Captain. Dad signs off “4th in command” time in son’s logbook. Son now with regional carrier. Professor proud of his student and supports this method of gaining B-727 time.

Let’s get real folks! Pilots need to be exposed to actual flying to develop the motor skills, flow patterns, and habits that are used sub-consciously by experienced pilots. While training in simulators is known to be superior in many ways to training in an airplane, at some point, the pilot needs to get out in the real world and do some actual flying. This allows full integration and correlation of skill and knowledge in a real-time flight scenario. The result of such training and experience is the development of the “spare mental capacity” that is required to deal with the situations and contingencies that are inherent to all flights. At the commercial pilot level (new pilot), these skills are well-honed for local operations. But the pilot has very little experience in the IFR system, all weather operations, complex aircraft operations, high-density airport operations, mountain flying, etc. The new pilot will quickly find that all the “simulation” in the world cannot prepare him or her for the tasks at hand.

This rampant logging of questionable flight time hurts not only those who are scrupulously honest in logging their time accurately, but also hurts those who log this “bogus” time. Yes, flight time is one of the means used by airlines to select pilots. This is unfortunate, as flight time does not always reflect quality or breadth of experience, but it is the reality of the current hiring situation. Please, university faculty, make sure you lead the way in promoting integrity in your students’ logging of flight time. If you don’t they may fall flat on their butts when put to the test. If that test is “for real” in an airplane, people will die.

Go back and read that last sentence. If you are tempted to “pad” your logbook with meaningless time, instead of working to build quality experience, go back and read it again until you are convinced. Accidents happen in this business. They happen for a variety of reasons, but human factors (usually pilot factors) are the leading cause. When accidents happen, people die. Training and experience are two of our best defenses against these accidents. You owe it to yourself, your crew, your passengers, your airline, your family, your friends, your fellow pilots, and your profession to be proficient and qualified.

I’ll bet a few of you are wound-up by now and asking the age-old question, “Yeah, but how do I get that experience?”. We’ll get to that shortly, but please don’t try to get that experience as part of an airline crew. The First Officer is NOT a trainee. The F/O is a highly qualified pro who is, by law, qualified to perform the same tasks (with minor exceptions) as the Captain on his/her checkrides. The Captain and the F/O (and F/E, if you’re lucky enough to work with one of these increasingly rare types) are a CREW. While most F/Os lack the depth of experience of the captain (especially in the particular aircraft type), they are light-years ahead of new commercial pilots in all aspects of flying ability, knowledge and experience. The crew interact as experienced operators to create a safe and efficient flight environment. This experience that they possess did not come from attending classes, nor from CRM exercises; it came from years of flying airplanes.

Get your experience the old-fashioned way. Go out and fly as PIC in an airplane you can handle. Learn it well. Fly other airplanes. Learn their characteristics. Become a pro (this is a state of mind -- an attitude toward your profession). Flight instruction, while not involving a lot of “stick time”, will teach you more about flying than you have learned while obtaining your commercial pilot certificate. Pipeline patrol, sightseeing, aerial photography, skydiving operations (they jump, you stay in your seat), are all good for building experience. Get on with a charter operator. Fly night freight. Fly in the military. As you transition from one type to a more complex type (at a rate you can handle), you’ll build that elusive experience (which would be better measured by years, seasons and number of flights, rather than by hours).

While we’re on the issue of experience, let’s cut through all the crap that you hear about type ratings. At 250 hours you’ve got as much business being in command of a Citation, Beechjet, BE1900, or B-737, as you do in command of the Space Shuttle. Yup. That’s what I said. “In Command”. That means you’re “it”. You are the final authority as to the conduct of the flight. You help to create a comfortable, well-run flight-deck. You contribute. You listen. You discuss. You direct. You teach. You learn. You fly. You support. You make decisions. You handle problems. The other pilot(s) look to you for mature, seasoned, sound judgment. Sorry, but at your level, you’re just not ready. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is setting you up for a big fall, or just wants your money. I realize that you can probably pass the type-rating check, but that is a snap compared to what will be required of you as a captain. After all, that is what that piece of paper entitles you to do -- act as PIC of that type aircraft, with a brand-new low-experience SIC sitting next to you, a bunch of trusting souls in the back, absolutely at-minimums weather at your destination, with an alternate that is no piece of cake either, and handle anything that might go “Murphy’s way”. Don’t be fooled into thinking you are ready for that. Instead, ask yourself why your school is offering that type-rating. Could it be to draw more students? Those simulators cost MILLIONS of dollars, dollars that could be spent on an education you need and flight experience you can use (or maybe not spent at all, with lower tuition the outcome). Tell your school to put away the expensive unusable toys.

Last, but certainly not least, pilots need a solid grounding in CRM. Practice CRM techniques every time you fly. Fly with other pilots. You must be able to interact in a crew environment, and the time to start learning is now. The benefits of solid CRM programs are recognized throughout the world as contributing to a safer flying environment by maximizing the crew’s synergy. I realize this is hard to do in the situation most of you find yourselves in, but do the best you can -- it will pay off in the future. Try to fly with a single-pilot operator. Even if you don’t get much actual “stick time”, you’ll gain important experience by watching and participating. Most of these pilots would be happy to help someone else, and happy to have the extra set of eyes and ears. One last thought, attend a good CRM course.

Now, let me set the record straight. I am not a “Grinch”, nor am I an old curmudgeon. I have seen hard times, but I’ve been incredibly blessed with some very good deals in my career. I merely see us, as an industry, irresponsibly creating some very un-realistic expectations for our next generation of pilots.

To My Fellow Pilots:

Keep holding the standards high and protecting the profession. We all know that there is no easy way to succeed. Do all you can to encourage and assist these future pilots, and help them to understand that the “no easy way” method might help to save their ass someday.

To Airline Management:

Give new pilots all the breaks you can. But realize that at some point PFT brings you pilots with money (or debt) and does not bring you the best group of pilots you could get. By the way, do you advocate PFT for managers, or do they need to have an established “track record”? That’s what I thought....

To University Faculty and Administrators:

Please do not allow the lure of high student volume, or the pressure put on you by the administration to cause you to lose sight of your real job. Your job is to mold, develop, guide, encourage, teach and assist some very talented young (and not so young) pilots on their path to careers as professional pilots. They must be aware that real success is not achieved overnight. They must be well-prepared for the future. “Looking good on paper” doesn’t count. You are their link to reality. You are the industry’s link to the future.

To Future Pilots:

You are the future. Please push yourself. Don’t expect a quick route to the majors. You’re gonna work your butt off to be successful. Study hard. Study beyond the required courses. Learn everything you can about your profession, including its history. There’s a lot in our history we don’t want to repeat. Insist on being ”pushed” in your flight training. Set your standards extremely high. Be a pro. Settle in for the long haul -- you’re in a tough career, but one with many rewards. Enjoy the good breaks you’ll get in your career. Display integrity. Demand the best from yourself on every flight. Set a positive example. Learn, and never stop learning. Teach, and never stop teaching. Remember those who helped you in your training and in your career, and be sure to “pass it on” to others who will need your help someday. You’re coming into a great hiring boom, and opportunities will be there. Don’t ever give up. Good luck. God bless. Fly safe.

(Signed)

An Anonymous B747 Captain Who Cares

[timbuck]

Now, that cheeky cough is one smart son of a gun.

Very well said my friend, thank-you very much!

[Gadgetgoat]

cheeky cough

Thanks for your time and your detailed response.
You bring up a lot of good points, I hope some of the "powers that be" read your post.

As a Jazz Pilot I am against the idea as well.

Regards

[cheeky cough]

Sorry everyone, I just cut and pasted that letter.

But , I have had it saved in my hard drive for a few years and really admire the person who wrote it.

I am just a hack!

Fly safe everyone and treat everyone you work with, with respect!

CC

[twinpratts]

Heard the latest is that there will be 20 or so new hires/ month for as far as they can see.

[moe]

indefinately was the term used.

[My Name is Earl]

How about instead of spending energy on training 200 hour pilots they spend some energy on ground help. Lets see..... last 3 flights on Jazz
1) 35 min hop in the air ----- 15 min on the ground cause no rampie
2) 1.5 hour RJ flight 20 min wait for rampie
3)2 hour delay leaving departure airport, 1.5 in the air and 1h 10 min on the ground waiting for a gate. I swear I wished I had driven
Time to spare go by air.

[untucked]

Is that in YYZ? I hear they're considering going with Global ground because it's so bad there. The reason they haven't already is that the numbers can't be handled yet.

[swervin]

Looks like the first 7 College students are coming online this spring.

[Stinky]

Looks like the first 7 College students are coming online this spring

This is going to be great for aviation in Canada. Now that automation in airplanes is so good a 200 hr college kid can go direct into an RJ and the ridiculously high wages we've been paid can finally start to come back down to reality, similar to the US. $20,000 sounds about right.

This does make me a little pissed actually. I've busted my ass for years to finally earn my place at Jazz, I've been captain on numerous turboprops and flown shitty airplanes, living in shitty places. All that hard work translates into a little pride when I put my uniform on and go to work.
It's very true that a 200 hr pilot can succesfully complete the training and safety won't be diminished in the cockpit. There are those one in a million cases where an accident may be prevented because a pilot had a more diverse background and more experience than the norm, but those are rare.
I don't think you can compare aviation in Canada to that in Asia and Europe. In those places the number of airline jobs is disproportionate to the number of time building jobs so they had to get creative.
Here we have tremendous opportunities for new grads to fly crappy Navajos and King Airs in the middle of nowhere. Not all of the experience is directly relevant to an RJ job, but enough of it is. It teaches great decision making, that's for sure.
The problem here is, now these companies are going to have even more trouble finding guys to fill the right seat, and the ones they do get are going to feel entitled to more because they got the short end of the stick and they think they should be flying an RJ.

We should all be concerned about the long term effect this will have, I know the lowtimers are jumping for joy. My fear is the gradual decline of a pilots worth. Number crunchers in head office are going to realize this works and pay rates will slowly come down.
I for one will feel a little less pride wearing my uniform, knowing that some 20 year old kid with a fresh commercial is doing the same job as me.
I should have been a stripper.

[spartacus]

Yeah, always nice to be reminded that all your hard work has been for nothing.
Excuse me while I erase 5000 hard earned hours out of my fucking log book.
Bullshit.

[Stinky]

It's fu****g true!!!

I just got off the Jazz website. It said 8 grads.

Bullshit.

[Spruce Moose]

Any idea what colleges they came from?

[Teach]

[quote="Stinky"]It's fu****g true!!!

I just got off the Jazz website. It said 8 grads.

Bullshit.[/quote]

As your name implies, your attitude stinks.

There is a reason this is happening....Both Jazz and Air Canada have realized that the quality of candidate they are getting is way below their expectations. Extra training, extra sims, are standard operations these days. This 'experiment' is designed to raise the bar for all candidates who are now in training.

5000 Hours in the bush may give you descent hands and feet, but in reality, hands and feet represent 10% of the job at ACA/JZA.

In general, todays new hires have poor technical understanding of large aircraft operations - which is to be expected, however, most of the time the base knowledge is simply not there. CRM is extremely lacking in many areas including leadership, preparation, and communication. I have seen cases where basic CPL topics are not understood or even applied.

CRM is the tool which will prevent and/or save you from a lethal situation. The colleges are teaching this, and in my opinion, these college grads will be better prepared CRM wise than any other candidate.

I am sure Jazz management will be watching the reaction of line pilots as these folks are trained. I hope your attitude towards them changes from the outright hostility I see here. Otherwise, enjoy your enhanced CRM course.

[Stinky]

This 'experiment' is designed to raise the bar for all candidates who are now in training.

You're obviously a low timer who has no idea. If you had the experience most of the new hires have at Jazz you would understand.

Like I said, I went into Jazz having been Captain on several Turbo props. I had a much more in depth knowledge of aircraft systems and CRM and IFR and about a thousand other topics that a 200 hr pilot will not have. I don't care how many hours you sat in class discussing hypothetical situations.
Nobody in my class a t Jazz required extra sim sessions or had any difficulty understanding the material. Air Canada may be different since they hire sons and daughters with a pulse as the only requirement.

Raise the bar!! What a joke.