Would you a union if:
Initially, the focus of the union would be:
a. to help members with employer/employee disputes on such issues as safety, termination pay, bond issues etc, and specifically job protection,
b. duty hours, days off, rate of pay for duty days for flight instructors.
c. disputes with TC, including legal aid
d. education with regard to 700 series operations and CARS.
e. and on a local and company basis, usual union issues
f. loss of medical issurance availability
Is it time for a union in Canada
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
The problem, flyinPhil, is that I am not a union man at heart. I think there was a time, many moons ago, when they were necessary. However labor laws and standards have, for the most part elimated the real need, and the unions, in general, are now the problem.
Having said that however, the aviation industry is different, and I believe there is a real need at this time for a collective voice.
As to the mandatory issue, possibly. It goes against my grain so let me ask you..why mandatory?
Having said that however, the aviation industry is different, and I believe there is a real need at this time for a collective voice.
As to the mandatory issue, possibly. It goes against my grain so let me ask you..why mandatory?
I am solidly with you on your feelings towards unions.
The only reason I said mandatory is that a "collective voice" requires inclusion of all. You can't represent all if only a percentage are members.
It would also make union shops less competitve if minimum salaries were established.
In my opinion, it should be a professional association with minimum standards for pay, safety and working conditions. If an operator wanted to pay more to attract or keep better people , so be it.
The only reason I said mandatory is that a "collective voice" requires inclusion of all. You can't represent all if only a percentage are members.
It would also make union shops less competitve if minimum salaries were established.
In my opinion, it should be a professional association with minimum standards for pay, safety and working conditions. If an operator wanted to pay more to attract or keep better people , so be it.
I voted 'no' because I feel that there should be choice in the matter. My main issue with labour unions is that they don't give people joining the company a choice regarding union membership.
If the proposed union had a mechanism of choice, I would support elements of it, though I probably would not join.
If the proposed union had a mechanism of choice, I would support elements of it, though I probably would not join.
That's because if only a fraction of the working population is a member of the union, a union by definition becomes powerless to effect any change or stand up for its members. When the word union is used, most people think of a labour union, which If I understand this proposal, is not what this is all about. This is more along the lines of a Trade Union or a Professional Association. For examples of these, see the Bar (lawyers), provincial APEG groups (engineers), or the previously mentioned trade unions for plumbers, electricians, etc.
The primary difference between these groups and traditional labour unions is that their chief interest lies in preserving public safety and the integrity of the profession. To that end, they lobby for legislative change, help regulate the admission/eduction of new members, and often are charged with the displining and/or expelling of their own members for infractions. However, TUs/PAs do not usually set minimum wages or deal with the many contract issues that labour unions do; Any mandatory association that excercises its power in that regard is very unpalatable to the public and TUs/PAs draw their power from the public (the public votes for the gov't, which in turn legally mandates membership in the TU/PA if one wishes to engage in that profession/trade). A pilot's trade union would be an interesting one, because one could argue that training bonds, loss of medical insurance, and job termination conditions are factors in PDM that directly impact public safety.
Overall, I would support a Trade Union, or Professional Association for pilots, but it would have to be carefully constructed in order to work. I would not however, support a mandatory nationally-inclusive labour union that deals with "usual union issues ... on a local and company basis" because not only would it never work, it would be a terrible idea.
The primary difference between these groups and traditional labour unions is that their chief interest lies in preserving public safety and the integrity of the profession. To that end, they lobby for legislative change, help regulate the admission/eduction of new members, and often are charged with the displining and/or expelling of their own members for infractions. However, TUs/PAs do not usually set minimum wages or deal with the many contract issues that labour unions do; Any mandatory association that excercises its power in that regard is very unpalatable to the public and TUs/PAs draw their power from the public (the public votes for the gov't, which in turn legally mandates membership in the TU/PA if one wishes to engage in that profession/trade). A pilot's trade union would be an interesting one, because one could argue that training bonds, loss of medical insurance, and job termination conditions are factors in PDM that directly impact public safety.
Overall, I would support a Trade Union, or Professional Association for pilots, but it would have to be carefully constructed in order to work. I would not however, support a mandatory nationally-inclusive labour union that deals with "usual union issues ... on a local and company basis" because not only would it never work, it would be a terrible idea.
Lommer said it best Johnny... You're confusing labour union with trade union as in professionnal association. A solid pilot's association would eliminate the need for labour unions as we know them, although I have to say that for us at AT, ALPA does a rather good job for us.Johnny wrote:My main issue with labour unions is that they don't give people joining the company a choice regarding union membership.
If the proposed union had a mechanism of choice, I would support elements of it, though I probably would not join.
Thing is that joining the association would have to be mandatory as soon as you obtain your commercial pilot's licence, otherwise it's a moot point, and there has to be people who want to dedicate their life to running one... I've seen many guys lose a lot, family wise, to union ''life''... It's a hard choice to make!
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arctic navigator
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- Location: Where the cold wind blows
I would be all for it... The biggest problem is that their is always a whore that will do it for less, pay for a ppc, blow minimums, fly overweight in shite weather etc etc... I think the only way it would truely work is if it is set up in such a way that you have to be a member of the said association to work in canada, and that association can pull your ticket if you dont follow the rules...
Both pilots and companies are members of said association, companies must hire from pilot pool. And in a perfect world our tarrif be closely monitored by a the CTC and no more rate cutting by the gypos. Sigh.................................
Rule #62 "Don't take yourself so damn seriously"
Wow, I am impressed.
Not really knowing anything about unions really, I was thinking of the philisophical side. some of you posters obviously have some indepth knowledge. My idea, was a little short on the meat and potatoes.
The idea of a professional association seems to be a good one. so where does one go, other than google, to find out the laws and the ins and outs.
You guys seem to know about that which you speak, so please, share
Not really knowing anything about unions really, I was thinking of the philisophical side. some of you posters obviously have some indepth knowledge. My idea, was a little short on the meat and potatoes.
The idea of a professional association seems to be a good one. so where does one go, other than google, to find out the laws and the ins and outs.
You guys seem to know about that which you speak, so please, share
Widow: The UTU is a Labour Union. One element that makes it easy to distinguish between the two is that membership in a labour union is not mandatory to work in that field. If a certain company is unionized, then it is often mandatory to join the union to work there, but any other company can hire non-unionized workers for the same work.
Trey: I'm an engineering student, and we're required to learn a little bit about our Professional Association during the course of our degree. I'm not sure where one would go to learn about these things on the internet though. You could check out the APEGBC (Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists of BC) website though http://www.apeg.bc.ca/aboutus.html.
The key to Professional Associations is that membership is mandated by law if you wish to practice that profession in Canada. Anyone can get an engineering degree but in order to legally sign off on design documents one must be a registered engineer. It is a two-way street though; in return for legally mandating membership, the government expects the Professional Association to be responsible in setting admission/education standards and in disciplining its members. Also, if the public feels that a Professional Association is only serving the interests of its members (i.e. focused on minimum wages, etc) you can bet that it will collapse with the next election.
Beyond engineering and law, I believe that Physiotherapists, Architects and a few other professions (dentists?) have associations. I've also heard that Pharmacists are currently in the process of trying to get a recognized professional association, but I don't know much about it.
Trey: I'm an engineering student, and we're required to learn a little bit about our Professional Association during the course of our degree. I'm not sure where one would go to learn about these things on the internet though. You could check out the APEGBC (Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists of BC) website though http://www.apeg.bc.ca/aboutus.html.
The key to Professional Associations is that membership is mandated by law if you wish to practice that profession in Canada. Anyone can get an engineering degree but in order to legally sign off on design documents one must be a registered engineer. It is a two-way street though; in return for legally mandating membership, the government expects the Professional Association to be responsible in setting admission/education standards and in disciplining its members. Also, if the public feels that a Professional Association is only serving the interests of its members (i.e. focused on minimum wages, etc) you can bet that it will collapse with the next election.
Beyond engineering and law, I believe that Physiotherapists, Architects and a few other professions (dentists?) have associations. I've also heard that Pharmacists are currently in the process of trying to get a recognized professional association, but I don't know much about it.
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marktheone
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So a pilot's level of education is such that we need someone else, a union, to tell us not to fly overweight shit aircraft?
Stop doing it to ourselves. Unions lost their place 20 years ago. Can you even imagine the ridiculous amount of paperwork we'd have then? With no imporvements to safety?
All we have to do is stand up for ourselves. The whole problem relates to pilots thinking they just have to fly, even for free. It's a job. That's all. You need to get paid or don't farkin go.
I suppose I'll get roasted for this post!
Stop doing it to ourselves. Unions lost their place 20 years ago. Can you even imagine the ridiculous amount of paperwork we'd have then? With no imporvements to safety?
All we have to do is stand up for ourselves. The whole problem relates to pilots thinking they just have to fly, even for free. It's a job. That's all. You need to get paid or don't farkin go.
I suppose I'll get roasted for this post!
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Double Wasp
- Rank 3
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I am for an association of some type for commercial aviation. I personally think that it would be a good idea for said association to be able to limit the amount of commercial pilots licensed every year. This would keep the wages up and stop a lot of the 2 year waits on ramps. Companies can still hire who they like from the pool and if they do not work out get rid of them and try the next one. I believe accountants have done this for years and it seems to be working for them. MHO
DW
DW
When it stops leakin oil then you worry.
Marktheone said: ''a pilot's level of education is such that we need someone else, a union, to tell us not to fly overweight shit aircraft?'' No but a trade association might eliminate the need for such a pressured decision... specially for newcomers to the trade!
I think that the trend of this discussion demonstrates without a doubt that:
1) We desperately need such a trade association, especially when someone thinks that pilots can make the right decisions all the time and be appluded for it by their tier 3 employer...
2) Such an association has to be mandatory as soon as a commercial license is issued, it won't work on a voluntary basis (see 1) and previous posts)...
I think that the trend of this discussion demonstrates without a doubt that:
1) We desperately need such a trade association, especially when someone thinks that pilots can make the right decisions all the time and be appluded for it by their tier 3 employer...
2) Such an association has to be mandatory as soon as a commercial license is issued, it won't work on a voluntary basis (see 1) and previous posts)...
You folks had an opportunity to thrust forward with an association/organization....it happened right here. It was called CAAP developed by Avcanada members.
But no one showed any interest or shall I say, everyone that promised to support this movement, vanished.
This thread is a waste of time. We'd be more productive with our time looking at pictures of Haz in drag in the misc. forum than trying to revisit this theory of organizing aviation professionals.
But what do I know about anything!?
as u were
But no one showed any interest or shall I say, everyone that promised to support this movement, vanished.
This thread is a waste of time. We'd be more productive with our time looking at pictures of Haz in drag in the misc. forum than trying to revisit this theory of organizing aviation professionals.
But what do I know about anything!?
as u were
Despite birdog's constructive post, I will get to working on it with acouple of the others. We will get a website and then post the link.
I am not confident it will be mandatory, however, I think we have to sell the idea to both employers and employees. A union can also benefit employers by keeping track and booting out those who are found to falsify time. Resolve bond default issues etc. Not exactly asking for union shops but an employer who can see the benefit in hiring members over non-members would be a good incentive for people to join.
An association can also better deal with its members and disreputable companies than TC can.
give me a couple of weeks to get this thing going.
I am not confident it will be mandatory, however, I think we have to sell the idea to both employers and employees. A union can also benefit employers by keeping track and booting out those who are found to falsify time. Resolve bond default issues etc. Not exactly asking for union shops but an employer who can see the benefit in hiring members over non-members would be a good incentive for people to join.
An association can also better deal with its members and disreputable companies than TC can.
give me a couple of weeks to get this thing going.
CAL wrote:IAB
Why don't you see if it can be revived?
hahahahahahahah!!!!.....
NOOOOH...no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no, it's time I dedicate time for my own life. I've spent far too much time helping others that it has left me emotionally exsausted.
I only come on Avcanada once in a while in hopes to see if 182driver was posted something new. However...I fear he too has gone corporate. Oh well...there's always "cornshoot".
Keep fighting the good fight folks....I'm off to the the Pacific to tie up some loose ends.
Much Love,
IABD
I was just going to ask if anyone still had the info for CAAP around ... since the original CAAP forum is gone, so are most of the threads about it ... CAAP was an idea for a Professional Corporation as opposed to a Professional Association was it not? And someone in one thread said something about Professional Associations being set up by government .... Wouldn't it be nice if you already had it pretty much outlined to present for the government to set out? I think a professional association for pilots would be a very good assist in my "quest" to make aviation safer.trey kule wrote:Despite birdog's constructive post, I will get to working on it with acouple of the others. We will get a website and then post the link.
I am not confident it will be mandatory, however, I think we have to sell the idea to both employers and employees. A union can also benefit employers by keeping track and booting out those who are found to falsify time. Resolve bond default issues etc. Not exactly asking for union shops but an employer who can see the benefit in hiring members over non-members would be a good incentive for people to join.
An association can also better deal with its members and disreputable companies than TC can.
give me a couple of weeks to get this thing going.
IABD - I have time to devote. If others are willing to trust me.
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
Mark:
No, we need an organization or framework to protect us from being penalized for making said decision.So a pilot's level of education is such that we need someone else, a union, to tell us not to fly overweight shit aircraft?
What I'm discussing/supporting is not a labour union, read the rest of this thread. Also, as almost all professional associations are run by members of their own profession, they tend to see the benifit of reduced paperwork unlike gov't bureaucrats. Using the former APEG example, upon graduating with a university degree, one is automatically eligible to become an EIT (engineer in training) member. After four years of work, one can do some paperwork and write a test and become certified as a PEng (professional engineer). For many engineers, these are the only interaction's they'll have with APEG in their entire careers. The EIT and PEng designations are in my eyes analogous to our CPL and ATPL licences, and if a Pilot's association became involved in the licencing process there would be no need to create more paperwork.Unions lost their place 20 years ago. Can you even imagine the ridiculous amount of paperwork we'd have then? With no imporvements to safety?
We're not currently standing up for ourselves, and no amount of wishful thinking is going to magically make it start happening. What is needed is a formal framework for "standing up for yourself".All we have to do is stand up for ourselves. The whole problem relates to pilots thinking they just have to fly, even for free. It's a job. That's all. You need to get paid or don't farkin go.
I have been a commercial pilot for 33 years. I am also an operator. I am fully in support of a manditory association upon receipt of a commercial licence. (see my posts re:) I would like to help. I also own 2 webservers which could be of use. Contact me
B
B
Rule #62 "Don't take yourself so damn seriously"
