Turning down an upgrade

[drifter]

Just wondering if anyone out there has turned down an upgrade and how the bosses felt about it. I just got offered an upgrade to the left seat of a turbine i've only been flying for 2 months (about 160 hours) and I think I would benifit from being an FO for another month or two.

Any thoughts?

[DA900]

drifter that is about the smartest thing I have read on here in a long time. I don't know how many people have accepted a position that they could not hold.

If you are at this point of your career and can make calls like that you will be around for a long time. To me as a former Chief Pilot I would look at you as someone who knows how to make good choices.

As the old saying goes only bite off what you can chew.

[duCapo]

excellent answer 900

[Rudy]

That's really responsible of you. If you're not comfortable with it then don't do it. I think your CP will respect you for it. Has anyone ever turned down an upgrade to a more complex type due to a terrible schedule and not much more money?

[Puddle Jumper]

i've only been flying for 2 months (about 160 hours)

I wish I was getting that much!

[Living_Sky]

Drifter... I admire your professionalism and have read your post with great Respect!

You sir are.... "the right stuff"

[drifter]

To me as a former Chief Pilot I would look at you as someone who knows how to make good choices.

The CP is flipping this the other way. He says he knows i'll make the right decisions and that why he wants me in the left seat. He is also giving me the whole "your the next most qualified person so you should be taking it or the guy after you is gonna get it."

Do I take it because if I don't someone even less qualified will? The next guy has more total time but not much IFR experience in BC. I have quite a bit of time flying all over BC but not much time on type.

[Living_Sky]

Sounds to me like a CP who just wants to get the 'mail bag' from point A to Point B.

To verify though... sit down with the guy and specifically ask him what his rational is... if his first words are "I need a pilot" you should stick to your guns... If his first words however are... because I have observed you fly and feel you can handle it, and here's why.... " Then I would say he is making his choice based on the skills he's observed....

If he's a well experienced CP, it could be he's right and you are just a bit unsure of your own confidence.... If he sticks to "I need a pilot"... you are wise in your own decision.

If you do end up taking the spot... ask him if he is willing to pair you with his most experienced FO

(the preceding announcement is opinion only)

[xsbank]

OK, 160 hours in that a/c? What's your total experience?
If the next guy gets it, you will be flying with someone who is less experienced than you and he is the captain!

I went from a turbine twin Captain to Captain of a 4-engine a/c without having been in the right seat and I survived.

How will your upgrade be accomplished? How much training will you get (I got FlightSafety)?

Think about it and talk to your CP - its just another airplane, right? Know your limits (they will be quite high to start with) and take it easy.

I would do it!

[w squared]

I think that it speaks volumes for both your level of professionalism and your understanding of the responsibility that you are being asked to accept that you are having second thoughts.

From where I'm standing, living_sky is speaking wise words.

[ettw]

Sounds to me like a CP who just wants to get the 'mail bag' from point A to Point B.

To verify though... sit down with the guy and specifically ask him what his rational is... if his first words are "I need a pilot" you should stick to your guns... If his first words however are... because I have observed you fly and feel you can handle it, and here's why.... " Then I would say he is making his choice based on the skills he's observed....

If he's a well experienced CP, it could be he's right and you are just a bit unsure of your own confidence.... If he sticks to "I need a pilot"... you are wise in your own decision.

If you do end up taking the spot... ask him if he is willing to pair you with his most experienced FO

(the preceding announcement is opinion only)

I agree totally with this. As a former Chief Pilot I would be very respectful of this. And I would make the request to pair you with an experienced FO a condition of accepting the upgrade. Not much is riskier than pairing a new Captain with a new FO especially in the highlands of BC.

Cheers,

ETTW

[flyinhigh]

Just wondering if anyone out there has turned down an upgrade and how the bosses felt about it. I just got offered an upgrade to the left seat of a turbine i've only been flying for 2 months (about 160 hours) and I think I would benifit from being an FO for another month or two.

Any thoughts?

First off, Nothing but respect from this guy what so ever.

Other hand, how are upgrades done with your company?
Does your CP go to current captains and ask how your coming along? or does he just say your next in line.

Where I am management comes to us captains and asks about the individual and we'll tell them what we think and they upgrade from there, everyone that upgrades here is ready as we do our best to help them along for the position, most of the time the individual themselves feels ready however there is the odd person that feels the way you do, that there not ready which is great for people to say.

However though sometimes these individuals are what has already been said lacking the confidence in themselves so we push them through the door to the CP and he makes them do a ride and wadya know they do great.

So do your coworkers think that your ready?

there really is no point to my post, I just got home form work and wanna type random shit.

[cyyz]

Now,

The guy below you with zero hours on type will be YOUR CAPTAIN.

Will you be able to take orders from that guy, will you get fired if you argue with him on your first flight?

I respect the company atleast they're promoting from within, sure they're promoting guys with no time on type, but atleast they're promoting instead of advertising DE Captains.

And secondly, you want to wait 1-2 months to gain more experience, you do realise, they're not gonna fire the new guy because you've suddenly changed your mind about being captain, please don't complain if this choice leaves you sitting in the right seat for another 5 years(which it won't but hypotheticly)...

Good luck.... Fly safe...

[trey kule]

good for you. But now dont let what I am going to write, mean anything different.

If it is a matter of we need a pilot now , as one wise person already posted, stick to your guns.

BUT: None of us are very good at self evaluation. If your CP has been around the patch for a while, they may see somethings in you, that you dont. You may feel, for instance, that you are lacking in confidence. They may see that as a mature conscios approach, and one that will mean you will think befoe acting...I hope you get the idea.

Explain your feelings, clearly to your CP. Then listen. You just might be alot better pilot then you think you are.

On the other hand, they may just need a pilot...now.

Good luck.

[water wings]

well, congrats for making a good decision... but by the sounds of it, someone with less experience could perhaps get upgraded.. Maybe you could work something out with your CP, such as until you feel more comfortable, your minimums are say, 500 feet instead of 200, or anything else that would allow your CP to get his/her Captain, and you to get the Capt spot. Find a happy medium between your concerns and the operational needs. I wish you luck, it's a tough spot you are in, and i sympathise with the comfort of being Captain.
Fly safe, no matter what.

[ahramin]

I'll just rehash what has already been said.

1. If your cp is going to put someone in the left seat whether they are qualified or not, look for a new job.

2. Realising that you may not be qualified to be captain is good thinking. I hope you also realise that you may not be qualified to decide if you are qualified or not .

3. Look at your cp. Do you think he knows what he (or she) is doing? Does he have a good track record? Does he make good decisions? Does he have a good plan for upgrading you? If yes to all of the above, then i would go with your cps judgement rather than your own. If not, see #1.

4. I wouldn't worry about time on type. If that is your only concern then maybe you are just being a little too cautious. 160 hours should be plenty to get used to a new type unless it is very different (we are not talking about a mu-2 here are we?).

5. It is perfectly acceptable not to be ready to be captain, but i don't see why everyone thinks this is so impressive.

[Rockie]

Drifter

Many times in your career you will be trained directly into the left seat of a brand new airplane. It's normal and it is based on your abilities as a Captain, not how many hours you have on the airframe.

But if you don't feel ready then I applaud your recognition of the fact and the good sense you have not to enter into something before you are ready. You have a long career ahead of you so don't let the fear of getting bypassed make you do something you don't feel ready to do.

[flyinthebug]

Drifter.. Firstly, i also agree you have good PDM skills. Not many of us egomaniacs can accept that maybe were gettin in over our heads. Talk to your CP as suggested and see if you could co-captain for 50-100 hours of Line indoc or until YOU feel comfortable in the left seat. Many companies consider this and DO offer this method of advancement.

One thing to keep in kind.. When I was at Pim Air we had a F/O that always turned down his upgrade to the left seat. He said no one too many times, and got the tag of "career co-pilot" from his peers. Then last year (10 years after the fact) I had his name across my desk and he was still sitting right seat in a PA31 and Capt (VFR only) on a PA23 or PA34 I cant remember which one.

Good initial decision, but you have resources and some time to make your final decision. Best of luck!
Fly safe all.

[CAL]

Its a good question.....and if you feel you are not ready then its good to question it....but hopefully you are not turning it down because the upgrade training isnt sufficient.

Only other thing you may want to think about is that if you turn it down....when will you get a crack at it again

[siro]

Do you perhaps work for pasco or carson air?
Heard about crazy early upgrade stories, particularly from the later

[xsbank]

I'll stick with my original reply - not knowing anything about you and your background, the fact that your CP wants you to make the move means you should go for it. Couple of hours in the left seat and you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.

This isn't a Boeing, right?

[Tui]

Even if it is, the major diff between left and right seats is the responsibilty of decision making. The controls still do the same regardless of your position and (more often than not) regardless of type. It seems like your decision making skills are sufficient (if this post is an accurate display). It seems like your only real hurdle will be confidence and that'll improve with proper training (so get as much as they'll give you).

[drifter]

Thanks to everyone for their input. There is a particular captain at work that I have always looked at as the leader for all the line pilots. I sat down with him and we talked about the upgrade. He basically said that I have learned what there is to learn as an FO. Now its time to start a different kind of learning out of the other seat.

So I guess its Captain Drifter now.

Thanks again to everyone for their input.

[Phlyer]

That's cool. I got a direct entry captain job with no time on type - no ifr either, and it was a hard ifr job. I was lucky that I had an awesome copilot who taught me a lot. I would recommend you ask for the same.

[xsbank]

Good decision, Drifter.