Can someone explain this practise to me? I have seen other threads that have made me wonder ... Can new pilots really train other new pilots?For starters I believe the industry in Canada is ass-backwards with some of the least experienced Pilots doing the hardest jobs and except for very few exceptions the wages and working conditions offered for instructors only attract the least experienced people.
Pilot training
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Pilot training
From another thread:
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
Widow wrote:
To be an instructor in Canada you need a bare commercial license, and an instructor rating. Voila. You are a teacher of pilots.
Generally, the work conditions are deplorable...ie. long long hours, only paid when you fly etc., and the pay is peanuts.
Most pilots get into it to build time and then get on with their real career.
I admire the professionals who continue under these conditions year after year....and I have met some truly good ones. but they are a real minority
The other side of the coin however, is that if instructors really did their job particularily with regard to ab inition training, they do have the necessary knowledge and expereince to teach the basics. It is just sometime tough to find instructors that empahsize this.
Can someone explain this practise to me? I have seen other threads that have made me wonder ... Can new pilots really train other new pilots?
To be an instructor in Canada you need a bare commercial license, and an instructor rating. Voila. You are a teacher of pilots.
Generally, the work conditions are deplorable...ie. long long hours, only paid when you fly etc., and the pay is peanuts.
Most pilots get into it to build time and then get on with their real career.
I admire the professionals who continue under these conditions year after year....and I have met some truly good ones. but they are a real minority
The other side of the coin however, is that if instructors really did their job particularily with regard to ab inition training, they do have the necessary knowledge and expereince to teach the basics. It is just sometime tough to find instructors that empahsize this.
Last edited by trey kule on Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Yes they can and is most times the case. I had one instructor who was a WWII vet but the others were fresh out of flight school. Actually the guy who did my Private flight test was a Vet as well.
There's nothing wrong with it as it is concepts that you are learning. Kinda like how to parallel park. You do it a few times with someone else until you get the hang of it. Then spent the rest of your career, hopefully, getting better at it.
Instructing jobs are not well paid. (Neither is a lot of aviation for that matter) So I would say that those jobs are not sought after. Plus for the most part instructor don't fly, they give pointers.
So as a result most instructors are people with fresh licenses. Back in the late 80's to early 90's you might see a 3-5000 hour instructor but those days are long gone.
For the record I will also say again that there is nothing wrong with this system. I learned how to fly with a newbie. All my experience can from sitting in the right seat and when I was ready in the left. When the industry gets hot, like now, sometimes the time frames for all that to occur are short.
A former chief pilot told me that when you have low time upgrades occurring, historically, accidents rise as well. I haven't seem hard numbers to support it, but lots of time in the right seat upped my confidence level when I went left. That I will say for sure.
There's nothing wrong with it as it is concepts that you are learning. Kinda like how to parallel park. You do it a few times with someone else until you get the hang of it. Then spent the rest of your career, hopefully, getting better at it.
Instructing jobs are not well paid. (Neither is a lot of aviation for that matter) So I would say that those jobs are not sought after. Plus for the most part instructor don't fly, they give pointers.
So as a result most instructors are people with fresh licenses. Back in the late 80's to early 90's you might see a 3-5000 hour instructor but those days are long gone.
For the record I will also say again that there is nothing wrong with this system. I learned how to fly with a newbie. All my experience can from sitting in the right seat and when I was ready in the left. When the industry gets hot, like now, sometimes the time frames for all that to occur are short.
A former chief pilot told me that when you have low time upgrades occurring, historically, accidents rise as well. I haven't seem hard numbers to support it, but lots of time in the right seat upped my confidence level when I went left. That I will say for sure.
It's better to break ground and head into the wind than to break wind and head into the ground.
I do not know much about the right seat, left seat thing and the reg's regarding the "transfer". Perhaps that counters what worries me about a newbie training a newbie. To be a driving instructor (traffic act), you have to have held a valid driver's licence for four years, besides lots of other stuff, presumably so that there is plenty of experience under your belt. I could be wrong, but flying an airplane must be a lot more complicated than driving a car.
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
A flight instructor position is much like volunteer social work at a soup kitchen. You certainly will not earn any money at it - in fact, it will cost you money to do so - but money isn't why you do it.
For years I have suggested that instructors must have a minimum of 1000 TT (2 years of active, but no frantic flying) to get a class 4. Every time I suggest it, I am target practice for rotten vegetables. But that doesn't mean it's entirely a bad idea.
For years I have suggested that instructors must have a minimum of 1000 TT (2 years of active, but no frantic flying) to get a class 4. Every time I suggest it, I am target practice for rotten vegetables. But that doesn't mean it's entirely a bad idea.
Hedley, I agree with you. The flight schools will scream bloody murder, but in the end I think it would hugely impact flight training for the better. Not only would more experienced people likely make better teachers, they're likely to demand slightly better wages/conditions so they're not falling asleep beside you on an 8am flight after bussing tables 'til 1am the night before. Theres dozens of other ways in which the changes would be subtle but have a large positive impact.
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sky's the limit
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You're determined to get me worked up aren't you Widow???? Lol.
Yes, they do, and it's a sorry state of affairs. Over in the rotary side of Canadian Aviation, MOST instructors are very high time guys, with lots of industry experience, and even a "low-time" instructor has several thousand hrs. The difference in quality of instruction is vast to say the least.
The reason is, flight instructors in rotary are paid well, many up into $140/hr range, so it's a viable career when you've had enough of the touring/working pilot lifestyle. There are many benefits to this arrangement.
There are those on here who have gone through the first job as an instructor route, and will argue to the death that's it's all a great set-up, and they can accomplish the job as well or better than high-timers, but it's an ignorant stance, supported by pride and not facts, or experience.
Unfortunately in FW, there is no incentive for more experienced ppl to come back into the world of Flight Training. Even if there was, the standard to which we train pilots is sorely lacking, so the level of frustration would be high. Not worth it on so many levels.
STL
Yes, they do, and it's a sorry state of affairs. Over in the rotary side of Canadian Aviation, MOST instructors are very high time guys, with lots of industry experience, and even a "low-time" instructor has several thousand hrs. The difference in quality of instruction is vast to say the least.
The reason is, flight instructors in rotary are paid well, many up into $140/hr range, so it's a viable career when you've had enough of the touring/working pilot lifestyle. There are many benefits to this arrangement.
There are those on here who have gone through the first job as an instructor route, and will argue to the death that's it's all a great set-up, and they can accomplish the job as well or better than high-timers, but it's an ignorant stance, supported by pride and not facts, or experience.
Unfortunately in FW, there is no incentive for more experienced ppl to come back into the world of Flight Training. Even if there was, the standard to which we train pilots is sorely lacking, so the level of frustration would be high. Not worth it on so many levels.
STL
Last edited by sky's the limit on Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Howitzer
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I know that more experience is required to be a helicopter instructor. The person has to actually have some experience in the field before they can teach it. It will be hard to see the number of hours required to hold an instructor 'ticket' go up, because that will mean that a FTU would have to pay their people more, because they have more experience.
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Cat Driver
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widow, this subject is a no win for your purposes.
Flight training has very few experienced instructors for many reasons.
One of which is it is very difficult for a pilot with decades of experience to try and readjust to the flight training standards you must regurgitate to pass the test with TC.
So a lot us high timers are just not interested in being forced to reguritate what an inspector wants to hear.
If you want to fail a flight instructors test all you need to do is question their program or disagree with some item.
Before anyone starts ragging on me about failing a flight instructors test.....no I have not.
Cat
Flight training has very few experienced instructors for many reasons.
One of which is it is very difficult for a pilot with decades of experience to try and readjust to the flight training standards you must regurgitate to pass the test with TC.
So a lot us high timers are just not interested in being forced to reguritate what an inspector wants to hear.
If you want to fail a flight instructors test all you need to do is question their program or disagree with some item.
Before anyone starts ragging on me about failing a flight instructors test.....no I have not.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Widow, I agree with Cat here. The reasons for instructors being low-time in Canada are many, and unfortunately it's not going to change.
However, the bright side is that once a pilot enters 703-705 work, there's usually more experienced pilots he or she can use as mentors. I certainly learned more from experienced Captains and FOs than I did from my 400 hour instructor. I should note, however, that while the 400 hour instructor didn't really teach me a lick about "the real world", he did a great job of teaching me about the basics. Low time instructors can do a great job of that - but where they fall short is passing along all that non-book knowledge that can only be earned with experience.
The situation that makes me nervous, however, is the private pilot who is looking for the quickest route to a license so he or she can jump into their newly-acquired aircraft. Without the benefit of experienced mentors, I've often witnessed these pilots go trundling into far too many situations that could easily kill them.
In the end, it all comes down to risk management - and without experience or good mentors, inexperienced pilots often assign risk to things that won't kill them. Unfortunately they also neglect to assign sufficient risk to the things that can.
However, the bright side is that once a pilot enters 703-705 work, there's usually more experienced pilots he or she can use as mentors. I certainly learned more from experienced Captains and FOs than I did from my 400 hour instructor. I should note, however, that while the 400 hour instructor didn't really teach me a lick about "the real world", he did a great job of teaching me about the basics. Low time instructors can do a great job of that - but where they fall short is passing along all that non-book knowledge that can only be earned with experience.
The situation that makes me nervous, however, is the private pilot who is looking for the quickest route to a license so he or she can jump into their newly-acquired aircraft. Without the benefit of experienced mentors, I've often witnessed these pilots go trundling into far too many situations that could easily kill them.
In the end, it all comes down to risk management - and without experience or good mentors, inexperienced pilots often assign risk to things that won't kill them. Unfortunately they also neglect to assign sufficient risk to the things that can.
