A serious discussion about marijuana.

[Greg87]

First of all, I'll say I never have and never will do any "recreational" drugs, and I personally feel that such things should not be mixed with flying in any way. However, one thing I'd like to add (I know I'm not a career pilot or AME... yet) is that it is also an issue with anyone in an aviation related job. You don't want a stoned AME working on the plane and screwing up, causing problems that a pilot can't fix in the air. You don't want a fueler who has been smoking pot driving out to your plane (I've seen the results of that, with a Skyservice A320 at YHM). And I'll say that this doesn't only apply to pot, anything which would cause you to be impaired while working. Being impaired while working in aviation puts the lives of others into jeoprady, in some cases hundreds of lives are relying on you to bring them safely to their destination. Anyways, that's just my opinion, for what it's worth.

[Golden Flyer]

after 48 - 72 hours no measurable effect on performance remains

You're kidding yourself. It's a lot longer than that.

I don't do any recreational pharmeceuticals. I don't even smoke cigarettes, or drink alcohol, because all of the above either make you dumber (eg impair your reaction time, memory and reasoning) or age you prematurely.

If you want to be dumber and older than you otherwise would be, sure, fill your boots, pour those chemicals into you (shrug).

I wouldn't even say 24 hrs. I dont know what type of weed you guys are smoking! That has to be laced....

[Golden Flyer]

Marijuana stays in your body and f*cks you up for weeks

Geez... XS, you gotta be kidding me. Such dramatization.... Everyone around me is laughing at the extent of your exaggeration. Alcohol leaves your system quicker because it's easier to flush it out of your blood stream.... simple, drink excess amount of fluid (water).

[Golden Flyer]

You are welcome eggbeater.
You might think about that old adage:
''there's none so blind as those that say they see ''

1Co 6:9 Don't you know that evil people won't have a share in the blessings of God's kingdom? Don't fool yourselves! No one who is immoral or worships idols or is unfaithful in marriage or is a pervert or behaves like a homosexual will share in God's kingdom. Neither will any thief or greedy person or drunkard or doper or anyone who curses and cheats others.

I'm guessing you added "and doper" in?

[Hedley]

http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/marijuana.html

research has shown that marijuana’s adverse impact on memory and learning can last for days or weeks after the acute effects of the drug wear off (19,20,25).

19 Pope HG, Yurgelun-Todd D. The residual cognitive effects of heavy marijuana use in college students. JAMA 275(7):521–527, 1996.

20 Block RI, Ghoneim MM. Effects of chronic marijuana use on human cognition. Psychopharmacology 100(1–2):219–228, 1993.

25 Pope HG, Gruber AJ, Hudson JI, et al. Neuropsychological performance in long-term cannabis users. Arch Gen Psychiatry 58(10):909–915, 2001.

Again, you're kidding yourself. If you want to smoke a J, sure, go ahead, I don't care about you getting lung cancer, but it will surely impair your ability to operate motorized equipment for more than 24 hours.

[sky's the limit]

CRASH PILOT "IMPAIRED" BY MARIJUANA

I think a more important, and frequent issue would be "Crash Pilot Impaired by Lack of, or Poor Training/Decision Making...."

Just a thought.

STL

[ettw]

Well I have to say I'm impressed by how well and rationally this topic is being discussed.

In the world outside of aviation I would say I'm indifferent to smoking up, as has been noted, there is way more harm done by alcohol than by grass. But in aviation I think we do have a responsiblity (legally and morally) to those we fly to be as "on the ball" as we can. And for that reason alone I am against the use of grass as a pilot.

That being said, I'm sure there's a really good Cheech and Chong cockpit skit in this topic.

Cheers,

ETTW

[ragbagflyer]

[/b]Mellow Pilot Wrote

Point is, we're not arguing about the social implications of alcohol abuse. The law right now states that the use of marijuana is prohobited. If you chose to smoke up, you have knowingly ignored the law. Regardless of whether you believe the law to be just and correct, it is the law. It must be obeyed, if it is not, there are legal consequences (though in our country that's debateable). It's a rule, some people seem to think that they can pick and choose the rules they're going to follow. It's an attitude that can be found all over society. I see no difference between taking off one pound over max gross and smoking pot. Either way you broke the law. Does it really matter how small the offence is?

Guess what buddy. What's legal or illegal isn't necessarily the same as what's right or wrong. And if smoking pot is the same to you as taking off one pound over gross you're probably either a private pilot or a flight instructor. And you're clearly not as mellow as your handle would suggest. Here's one for you to ponder from your self declared moral high ground. Say a pilot goes to Amsterdam for two weeks and happends o smoke a joint, where it happens to be legal, and therefore ok (according to you). Then he goes back to Canada and fails a drug test. What then? He wasn't breaking the law, he's not impaired etc. Please, enlighten us.

[xsbank]

If pilot fails drug test, pilot lose job.
Fail drug test=Unemployment.
Pee bad=no job.
Dopey pee=no food.
Pilot smoke dope=Pilot moron.
Smoke up=F*ck up.

Makin' it easy for all you doper pilots...

Length of time in your system, lasting effects, morals, ethics, right or wrong, argue all you want - do it and lose it (if you land in the US they can test you, even if you are Canadian. Try and explain that one).

Any questions?

[mellow_pilot]

Say a pilot goes to Amsterdam for two weeks and happends o smoke a joint, where it happens to be legal, and therefore ok (according to you). Then he goes back to Canada and fails a drug test. What then? He wasn't breaking the law, he's not impaired etc. Please, enlighten us.

According to me? When the hell did I say anything about an Amsterdam trip?

Well, let's start with logic. If he's getting drug tested, he's probably working somewhere that prohibits drug use as part of his employment contract. In that case, he's broken contract law. The fella knew he wasn't supposed to use drugs and did, got tested, and got busted. He did break Canadian law. Probably gets fired for breach of contract, etc. So what's the confusion about?

So what if it's legal in Amsterdam? It's not ok for the pilot to have drugs in his system. That's a term of his employment. It's the same as a soldier going to Amsterdam, doing some heroin, then coming back and getting discharged for it. Wasn't supposed to, did it anyway, you're canned.

What if your company ops say you can't do IFR approaches due to some quirk in Canadian regs, but the laws in Holland are written differently, so you can. Is it ok to go against company regs then, or do they still apply?

Is it morally defensible for a 45 year old American to come to Canada, have sex with a 14 year old, and then go home? It's legal here, but not there. People get busted for internal possession of narcotics in the States all the time. I doubt the US authorities give a rat's ass where it was ingested.

[Mr. North]

I agree, if you test positive it doesn't matter where you ingested it. It's still in your system = illegal. Plain and simple.

I'd love to see someone use the "Amsterdam" excuse. That's right up there with "really officer? I was certain the speed limit was eighty!?"

In reality though, how many pilots are raked over the coals for this? I flipped through my limited collection of TC safety newsletters but haven't found anything related to MJ. Does anyone know of an actual case where a pilots career was ruined for testing positive?

[Golden Flyer]

http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/marijuana.html

research has shown that marijuana’s adverse impact on memory and learning can last for days or weeks after the acute effects of the drug wear off (19,20,25).

19 Pope HG, Yurgelun-Todd D. The residual cognitive effects of heavy marijuana use in college students. JAMA 275(7):521–527, 1996.

20 Block RI, Ghoneim MM. Effects of chronic marijuana use on human cognition. Psychopharmacology 100(1–2):219–228, 1993.

25 Pope HG, Gruber AJ, Hudson JI, et al. Neuropsychological performance in long-term cannabis users. Arch Gen Psychiatry 58(10):909–915, 2001.

Again, you're kidding yourself. If you want to smoke a J, sure, go ahead, I don't care about you getting lung cancer, but it will surely impair your ability to operate motorized equipment for more than 24 hours.

Regardless Hedley... I respect your decision. The truth is, I stopped smoking. After the high was gone, there is a ridiculous low and I hate dealing with that low. It has me down, sleeping etc... and I was tired of it.

[xsbank]

I don't think its a TC thing, its an employer thing (in Canada) so you will not find it on websites in Canada, but you could search the FAA?

[bandaid]

When it comes to substance abuse I have always tried to consider one thought, would I like to be treated by a paramedic who just came off a bender from the night before? I think that I owe it to my patients to be at the top of my game.
You can argue the merits of alcohol vs Marijuana forever, like it or not, right or wrong, one is legal and one is not. I think that it really makes no difference which poison you abide in, if you want to call yourself a professional you need to act like one. The reason they have spot drug testing in some professions is because they react to the lowest common denominator. You have men or women that fly around this country that will drink to excess or smoke weed, sniff coke..... whatever, and because of these people you have a lack of trust amongst employers and regulaters. The sad thing is that you are not the only industry.

[shitdisturber]

I agree, if you test positive it doesn't matter where you ingested it. It's still in your system = illegal. Plain and simple.

I'd love to see someone use the "Amsterdam" excuse. That's right up there with "really officer? I was certain the speed limit was eighty!?"

In reality though, how many pilots are raked over the coals for this? I flipped through my limited collection of TC safety newsletters but haven't found anything related to MJ. Does anyone know of an actual case where a pilots career was ruined for testing positive?

I couldn't give you a number; but I seem to remember from back in the early 90's a CAL f/o got caught with weed when he was pulled over for a traffic violation. If memory serves he was required to pee in a bottle and he was really up shit creek then. Due to union rules I think he was able to keep his job, although grounded, while he went through substance abuse. At some later date I believe they cut him loose; whether it was for violating substances again or they just wanted to get rid of him for the embarassing publicity I couldn't tell you.

As far as I'm concerned; if you're in a position where you are responsible for the lives of others, pilot, AME, fueller, whatever, and you use drugs or abuse alcohol you deserve to lose your livelihood. You've proven you're irresponsible and not to be trusted. Maybe I spent too long in the military but I like the way they dealt with drug use. If you get caught, you're going to jail; not a nice comfortable provincial jail either, military prison where hard time is still hard time. When you get out, you're going to be thrown out of the military and you'll have a criminal record. Harsh? Absolutely, but when other people's lives are on the line I don't have a problem with it.

Alcohol abuse, while not dealt with as severely since drinking is still legal; will still have unfortunate consequences on your career. Especially if you relapse after being put on a recovery program. Get caught driving while impaired? Hello military jail. While not prison, usually; it's probably worse to just do time in the base jail. The MP's all know who you are; and know you've endangered their families and friends, the chances of them going easy on you aren't real good. At least when they get out of jail though, they're fit; lots of fresh air and exercise!

[dell111]

So do you have to pass a drug test before you can even start on your private license?

[. ._]

Nope. The piss test for your medical tests for kidney stones. It might test for more-maybe blood sugar, but I forget. They definitely do not test for dope.

The only dope "test" is when the medical examiner asks you if you do drugs and how much you drink a week.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

-istp

[xsbank]

My medical examiner in Montreal has a busy side practise doing drug testing. MOST corporate jobs are now testing for drugs, ALL Part 135 operators are liable to random testing (Part 121 as well). While I was waiting for him to sign my papers, he answered a call from a client and he said "... she tested positive for marijuana..." and proceeded to discuss how "... she'll never get a job in this industry again..."

Smoke up - lose job.

"Smoking a single marijuana cigarette produces THC metabolites that are detectable for several days with the cannabinoid assay (4). THC can accumulate in body fat, creating higher excretion concentrations and longer detectability. If an affect on performance is the main reason for screening, the urine cannabinoid test result alone cannot indicate performance impairment or assess the degree of risk associated with the person's continuing to perform tasks. If a history of marijuana use is the major reason for screening, the urine test for cannabinoids should be able to detect prior use for up to 2 weeks in the casual user and possibly longer in the chronic user."
Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
1600 Clifton Rd, MailStop E-90, Atlanta, GA 30333, U.S.A

[Tex North]

The only problem I have with marijuana is that long-term I think it is a serious de-motivator. People that smoke weed regularly (days off or whatever) lose ambition and seem to settle for much less than they are capable of. I have personally witnessed this with a TON of friends. I have no problem with the drug itself, there are way less social problems with marijuana than alcohol but I would really like to see a long-term study on why some (not all) regular users of marijuana become less motivated and lose sight of their goals.

[xsbank]

Tex, there's tons of information on the internet about just that: 'long term study of college students who smoke tons of weed' (I paraphrase!). Google.

[Rowdy]

XS you are spot on!

I know a few on here are just stirring the pot (haha) but in all reality don't partake and I hope to god they don't. Illega illegal illegal!! Not to mention the fact that you're now a "test" pilot as the effects have never been studied!

And for those that say "decriminalize" or "legalize" the use of marijauna.. Well there are two major issues with that. Number one is the control portion.. There are so many variables that it would be hard (read: expensive) to have a perfectly controlled production environment and the other being the fact that the taxes on the substance would be so ridiculous that not many would be able to afford this habit.

Oh and don't give me the BS about how it's out of your system in under 24hrs. Why can the metabolites be found over a week later for a non-regular user? Has there been any studies performed on the effects of useage at higher alttitudes or different pressures? No. Why?! The results are most likely not positive in any means.. Much like every other drug! (nicotine included) I've also seen studies that prove THC and some of the compounds associated with the smoking of weed are addictive. The only folk who will argue otherwise are the ones trying to cover for themselves.

As for the generalizations and stereotypes.. well lemme tell ya folks, they are out there for a reason! Sure there may be a few out there that are impervious to the short term affects, but what kind of percentages are we talking!? Most likely very low.

So we'll put it this way. I don't usually get riled up over this kind of stuff. But damn! Grow up and be responsible children. Aviation is a serious and proffesional environment. It needs to be treated as such. I have no respect for anyone that partakes in this illegal, unproffesional, immoral and addictive segment while involved in aviation. I also have zero tolerance for it among those that I fly with. If you get caught, I hope you get roasted for it.

[sky's the limit]

OMG,

Are you guys for real?

It's a plant, one that likes to grow in abundance. The "legality" of the damn stuff is pure politics, nothing more, nothing less.

Should one abuse ANYTHING before flying/driving/juggling flaming cats? No. Not alcohol, not weed, not painkillers, not any "substance." However, casual usage of any of those is just fine, but I think we could argue quite easily that alcohol is a FAR greater issue to flying than some dope.

Take some personal responsibility, show up to work FULLY ready to do the job, and when it comes to the rest of it, mind your own business. If a guy wants a drink or a smoke on days off, go ahead, just don't abuse it.

stl

[orbit]

Are you guys for real?

It's a plant, one that likes to grow in abundance. The "legality" of the damn stuff is pure politics, nothing more, nothing less


So are poppy plants and they make what of it hmmmm?????

Everything we like comes from some plants or natural source from the ground....we have to choose wisely to what is good for us?

Are you for real?
...obviously smoking too much? reality is not so clear for you!part of the side effects.....

[trey kule]

xs bank wrote

Just don't try and tell me you are a 'professional pilot.'

My thoughts exactly.

I am always amazed how some justify it by saying, "well its better than being a drunkard or speaking to the wife by hand."

But then druggies can rationalize anything as long as it makes them think its OK.

[sky's the limit]

So are poppy plants and they make what of it hmmmm?????

Exactly how am I supposed to respond to someone who equates pot and heroin, either through processing or effects??? Not even in the same league I'm afraid. Cocaine comes from a plant too... I'm sure you think it's the same to?

Thanks for proving a point.

Next time I wander into a bar and see a bunch of pilots lining up shots at the 8hr mark, I'll try to remember this discussion. Anyway, this discussion is about flying under the influence, and I think (like I said above) we all agree that's just not on, regardless of the substance involved, but don't start going on about legalities....

stl