Jan 28 2004, 07:33 AM
NEWS!!!
The Canadian Commercial Pilot's Association (CCPA) is pleased to announce it has joined forces with the Canadian Association of Aviation Professionals (CAAP).
Monday, January 26 2004 The CCPA and CAAP were two similar organizations both in the development stage. Upon realizing the synergy each group could provide, an agreement was reached today after a careful analysis of the objectives of each group. The new organization is currently working on bylaws, a mission statement, newsletter, and building its membership. In a recent poll, 92% of respondents were interested in joining this group.
The goals of this new INDUSTRY ASSOCIATION include collaborating with other aviation groups on issues affecting the aviation industry in Canada, such as safety and the CARs; promoting the professional pilot; and obtaining group insurance and benefit plans for professional pilots.
To sign up for pre-membership in CAAP, please follow this link and let us know you're interested. There is no charge to pre-register at this time. http://www.avcanada.ca/membership.html
If you are willing to help organize or assist CAAP in any way, please send an email to support@avcanada.ca to get access to our organizational forum. Your help is greatly appreciated!
CD wrote:An awful lot of work was put into this effort and it was very disappointing to see the lack of support these folks were given.
I think one way to support a venture like this would be to lobby other industry groups to charter only aircraft piloted by a member of the association. I would think, for instance, the forest industry should be a first to interest, and I certainly have the contacts here in BC to try to advance this.
I am Birddog wrote:You folks had an opportunity to thrust forward with an association/organization....it happened right here. It was called CAAP developed by Avcanada members.
But no one showed any interest or shall I say, everyone that promised to support this movement, vanished.
This thread is a waste of time.
As I said IAB, as long as any of those proposed assoc./corp. are on a voluntary basis, it won't work!
Those who are willing to set it up will have to work with flight schools/colleges, etc, to enroll the new pilots as soon as they receive their COMM. licences...
We've tried the association thing in Qc. about 15 years ago, heck we even sent money a couple of years in a row (not that it's any guarantee but)... Now, don't ask me where that money went!
We would have to have the goverment (TC) involved at some level, ie licencing, for this to even have any chance at all to work.The association membership for both operators and pilots has to be mandatory.
I would like to know more of the work that has been put in on this other association in the recent past. I have been out of the loop up where I live. Too busy working I guess, tryin to keep the wolves from the door:-)
duCapo wrote:We would have to have the goverment (TC) involved at some level, ie licencing, for this to even have any chance at all to work.The association membership for both operators and pilots has to be mandatory.
That's probably not all that far-fetched an idea. Just look at the corporate operators in Canada: if you want a private operator certificate, you must be a member of the CBAA. It took a "few" years of negotiating but it did eventually happen.
It also seems to me that I read on a forum where HAC is trying to do something similar with all of the helicopter operations in Canada...
[quote="SkyLounger
As I said IAB, as long as any of those proposed assoc./corp. are on a voluntary basis, it won't work![/quote]
We need to be forced to join and then held by the hand to stand up for ourselves? If that is the case we should all go get jobs down at the sawmill.
Unions were created largely to protect people who were easily replaced during times of economic difficulty. We're not easily replaced, we just usually do not recognize this fact. A 200 hour pilot is easily replaced and that will never change and nor should it. A pilot with some relevant experience is another story. Tell your management to raise the rates and everything else will fall into line. Your ops mgr (99% of them) does want you to be happy and succeed. Management should be sticking up for you and you should be sticking up for the company.
marktheone wrote:[quote="SkyLounger
As I said IAB, as long as any of those proposed assoc./corp. are on a voluntary basis, it won't work
We need to be forced to join and then held by the hand to stand up for ourselves? If that is the case we should all go get jobs down at the sawmill.
Unions were created largely to protect people who were easily replaced during times of economic difficulty. We're not easily replaced, we just usually do not recognize this fact. A 200 hour pilot is easily replaced and that will never change and nor should it. A pilot with some relevant experience is another story. Tell your management to raise the rates and everything else will fall into line. Your ops mgr (99% of them) does want you to be happy and succeed. Management should be sticking up for you and you should be sticking up for the company.
You got me completely wrong mto... First, we're not talking union but professionnal association. Secundo, where I'm at right now in my career, I don't really need one. Tertio, it would actually benefit those 300-400hrs guys who are still making their teeth in this business!
First of all this type of association will benefit everyone in the industry, right from your customers, your operators to the younglings just getting started in their carrers. MTO you said"Tell your management to raise the rates and everything else will fall into line. . Let me answer that one: Beaver rates here on the west coast need to go up by $2.00 per mile, so that I can pay my pilots what they really deserve, and do some mods on my aircraft to increase their usefulness.
Assmunch Air across the street doesn't. The customer (God Bles him) because he doesn't understand the economics of the air transport business, sees a lower price and takes his business over there to AMA. Where does that leave me? I can take the loss, pay my pilots for the season, and then file bankrupcy. The operators need to agree to a fair rate and charge it.
duCapo wrote: MTO you said"Tell your management to raise the rates and everything else will fall into line. . Let me answer that one: Beaver rates here on the west coast need to go up by $2.00 per mile, so that I can pay my pilots what they really deserve, and do some mods on my aircraft to increase their usefulness.
Assmunch Air across the street doesn't. The customer (God Bles him) because he doesn't understand the economics of the air transport business, sees a lower price and takes his business over there to AMA. Where does that leave me? I can take the loss, pay my pilots for the season, and then file bankrupcy. The operators need to agree to a fair rate and charge it.
Well is that not the problem then? Our whole perception has to change. You just can't move an airplane for the prices that it has been done for in the past. I have stuck to my guns on this for some time now and have (Knock on wood) come out on top. That whole float thing is fuc_ed. You guys own the market not only from a TC perspective (they protect you from startups, mostly) but also from a public point of view. If you all raised your rates do you think that people will stop flying? Not a fu_kin chance. Raise it by $50.00 a seat. It'll still be quicker and more convenient than the ferry. It's downtown to downtown.
I'm generally against more government however I almost think that the CTA should get more involved. What exactly is the point of a tarriff? You can go in or out of it whenever you want? There is no other business that I know of where you have to invest literally millions and then not make a reasonable profit. We deserve a 25 to 30% margin just like in any other business that you must initially invest millions in. And pilots should be able to make a decent living. End rant.
MTOne
You have convinced me....I believe you are not with TC.
Actually, though CTA has acted a few times with regard to tariffs.
Have you contacted them?
I sympathsize with your situation. I spent a couple of weeks on the west coast last year looking at some of the operations...scary, financial wise. I get the feeling that some of the operators think fuel, insurance, and EI submissions for pilots complete their list of operational costs.
If it helps any, sometimes it is a good idea to make up a little brochure for the back of the seatsentitled "why it costs more to fly with us"
We did it a few years back and it was bery well received and successful in retaining customers....tip. scum sucking dirt bag competitors contains no hyphens...
Exactly what float market are you talking about as our company is surely not protected by anybody, least of all TC. If we are going to start being specific on this forum, let's identify things and not tar everybody with the same brush. If you are so expert and knowledgeable, I invite you to Red Lake, Ontario this summer so that you in your almighty wisdom may inform us who we may seek protection with.
Unfortunately after such a disasterous season last year, we cannot raise our seat prices by $50/seat.
As many of the pilots on this site seem to be seeking the protection of a union, we as an operator would like to seek protection from anybody as it surely is not TC or the CTA.
there is a world of difference between a union and a professional association, don't confuse them. I know from experience that unions do not work well in our profession. an association in short would put into place and maintain professional standards for both employers and employees.
duCapo wrote:there is a world of difference between a union and a professional association, don't confuse them. I know from experience that unions do not work well in our profession. an association in short would put into place and maintain professional standards for both employers and employees.
Which could in turn help force a standard of ethical and consistent regulating from TCCA.
trey kule wrote:MTOne
You have convinced me....I believe you are not with TC.
Actually, though CTA has acted a few times with regard to tariffs.
Have you contacted them?
I sympathsize with your situation. I spent a couple of weeks on the west coast last year looking at some of the operations...scary, financial wise. I get the feeling that some of the operators think fuel, insurance, and EI submissions for pilots complete their list of operational costs.
If it helps any, sometimes it is a good idea to make up a little brochure for the back of the seatsentitled "why it costs more to fly with us"
We did it a few years back and it was bery well received and successful in retaining customers....tip. scum sucking dirt bag competitors contains no hyphens...
Good points trey. We have undergone a CTA audit once. Though it was informative I don't think that they police it enough. Of course whenever the government tries to police/regulate anything they generally screw it up. That is a risk that I would be prepared to take in this case if they could get everyones mileage rate's up.
Carholme,
I don't know Red lake from Toronto. What I said was "The west coast float market" is protected by TC, to a degree. They (TC) are not very helpful to other operators trying to start up in this market. I am not involved in floats but have seen it from a distance a few times. If you can't make a dollar doing it in Red Lake then shut it down and go somewhere else. If you are flying to cheap you will have problems. We've all seen that a thousand times.
As many of the pilots on this site seem to be seeking the protection of a union, we as an operator would like to seek protection from anybody as it surely is not TC or the CTA.
No problemo. I have asked Guido and a couple of the boys to come over and have a talk with you about protection.
Seriously though, I dont think anyone ever mentions problems to the CTA.
why not give it a try. If Tariffs are to low there is also the competition act as extremely low prices are predatory.
I see no where in your post, entered at 12:09 today, reference to "West Coast float operators" only.
If all you know about float operators is that you have seen them from a distance a few times, it would have been appreciated if you had let us know that up front.
Trey
I'll keep a close watch for Guido, will he work for both sides if the cash is there?
Marktheone: you mention that we just up our seat prices by $50.00 because we own the downtown to downtown market. The operator that owns that market is the biggest problem out here. They have done more to keep wages down, and sart fare wars than any other company I personally know of. They still insist on paying their pilots milage plus base. Now if that isn't lokking to cause an accident out here in the winter months, I don't know wht is. I might as well name Harbour Air as the culprits before someones asks.
duCapo wrote:Marktheone: you mention that we just up our seat prices by $50.00 because we own the downtown to downtown market. The operator that owns that market is the biggest problem out here. They have done more to keep wages down, and sart fare wars than any other company I personally know of. They still insist on paying their pilots milage plus base. Now if that isn't lokking to cause an accident out here in the winter months, I don't know wht is. I might as well name Harbour Air as the culprits before someones asks.
I figured. Like I said though I'm not involved in floats. H.A. would have to get on board as well, that is with a rate increase. I do understand the complexities of the situation though. It is especially tough (I'm guessing) in the float end of things though. Are they within their tarriff? Maybe we should try and get the CTA involved. I know they say they have the power to pull OC's but I have yet to see that.
Ya know, with the current “pilot shortage” (experienced pilot shortage) this would be the time to get CAAP or some form of a trade union/association/guild/whatever going.
For example…if we could magically get every pilot in school, instructing, and working 702/703/704 carriers to sign up to this tomorrow, the “association” could infact set up and enforce such company violations such as low pay (establish a min pay for type/experience), bonds, CARS violations, by simple supply and demand - the “association” could effect the companies ability to attain and hold it’s pilot roster. No pilots no company. Switch the supply and demand in our favor.
Pilots not willing to abide to the “association’s” rules would also in turn find it hard to find work elsewhere – the threat of blacklist.
I know this could be done, but would take a monumental effort Canada wide. Even though the “association” may not have much pull over us at the bigger more established companies, I know the more experienced drivers out there would sign on principal. I have heard this discussed in crew rooms across the country.
Just a thought, but it could happen, and now would be the time.
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