Well, the upside is if there is no way to get to Jazz because the Seneca guys are going, it could mean the end of training bonds for the rest of you!
Jazz will have to have a DEC scheme, because they will need people to upgrade long before the cadets are ready. This happened in the past when airlines hired cadets then had nobody qualified to upgrade.
I suppose they could get all their command time in the sim...
Egos - I'd be willing to bet that every male pilot on this site, with a brand new private license, wore his Ray-Bans into the bar and had a cutesy leather or nylon jacket with leeetle wings stuck on it somewhere; or a tattoo of a 172 on a visible body part or a pick-up line that included night-flying...get over it.
Guess the rest of you better go back to school 'cause you obviously aren't qualified for Jazz!
Nowhere is it written that the so-called 'progression' is written in stone. Just have to be more creative, I guess.
Seneca grads to go direct entry Jazz & Mid East
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako
So I'm still wondering...what's in this for JAZZ? What does JAZZ think this is going to do for them?
Nothing to compare it to, not much appreciation = bitter pilot faster
Cheers,
ETTW
I beg to disagree. I think they'll be just as bitter as most of the others in just about the same time frame. Maybe even faster because they will not appreciate how good they have it because they know nothing else. How many JAZZ pilots sat in the RH seat for a long time just being happy they weren't out there with a broom at 7 AM and digging for avgas drums in the snowbank.Just a thought... A low time guy will sit in the right seat for years and be happy as a pig in sh!t and not go anywhere else. Then they'll one day be upgraded and sit there a little while longer.
Nothing to compare it to, not much appreciation = bitter pilot faster
Cheers,
ETTW
1. The company pays me to make money for it.
2. If the company doesn't make money neither do I
3. I still hate simulators
2. If the company doesn't make money neither do I
3. I still hate simulators
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TopperHarley
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1870
- Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:56 pm
Maybe I'm being a little too much of an optimist, but I could see this being the first step in getting higher pay and better conditions in the lower levels of the industry!
"The price one pays for pursuing any profession or calling is an intimate knowledge of its ugly side. -- James Baldwin "
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TopperHarley
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1870
- Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:56 pm
But the other side of the coin is that it could bring lower pay in the upper levels of the industry.bater wrote:Maybe I'm being a little too much of an optimist, but I could see this being the first step in getting higher pay and better conditions in the lower levels of the industry!
"Never travel faster than your guardian angel can fly." - Mother Theresa
I don't think they're going to take all the grads, leaving enough losers to fill the ramp and pay for PPCs...bater wrote:Maybe I'm being a little too much of an optimist, but I could see this being the first step in getting higher pay and better conditions in the lower levels of the industry!
It won't get any better, just pray it doesn't get worse....
I wouldn't worry too much about these guys getting upgraded anytime soon. Its currently about 8yrs to the most junior captain seat in the company. By then they MAY have just enough time to qualify for a ATPL. Lets not kid ourselves here people, this is all about Jazz trying to save a few bucks and nothing more. They pay crap wages and a good number of their newhires are bailing for greener pastures. Its a bad idea and when word gets out that Jazz is putting lowtime guys in their planes to save money, the media will have a field day with it. Yes they do it in Europe but their entire ATC system is completely different than Canada's. Its much more controlled. Visual approaches are virtually unheard of. Approaches to an uncontrolled airport? Doesn't happen much over there. I have asked every captain I fly with what they think of this idea and they ALL think its a bad idea. Yes you can teach someone to fly an RJ but you can't teach someone what to do when the Captain is gettting out of shape on an approach. (yes even Captains screw up sometimes!! LOL) Those first 8 guys had better be PERFECT from day one or they are going to get jumped all over real quick.....
Now what do we think when the oh-so-popular post comes up reading, "Hi! I just graduated from flight school... a COLLEGE PROGRAM, even... and I'm looking for a jet job without having to do that blue collar stuff that dumber people than I have to do. Anybody got any numbers for me?"
Trolling... not trolling. Can't freakin' tell anymore!!!! Me go back to ramp to think.
Trolling... not trolling. Can't freakin' tell anymore!!!! Me go back to ramp to think.
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Slappy the Squirrel
- Rank 5
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:26 am
I heard that the reason they are doing this is because it is easier to train a 250 hr pilot company SOP's and just their overall attitudes since they havn't already developed their own ideas from working at other regional carriers. I've also heard that they are not just taking the entire Seneca graduating class and throwing them on an RJ or Dash, instead they are taking the top 2 or 3 students from a number of flight colleges, then having an intensive interview and testing process, then maybe out of the original pool of 18 or so college grads (not just seneca) they will take the top 8 or 9 pilots, and train them. This is supposed to be more of a test to see if it works more than anything, for now at least. The majority of the pilots are still gonna come from tier 3's and the such.
I'm not saying I particularly like their idea either, and I heard this from a fairly reliable source.... If there is such a thing.
I'm not saying I particularly like their idea either, and I heard this from a fairly reliable source.... If there is such a thing.
I don't think you will see much of a change...this is like Global Warming - why don't you all just go and blow yourselves up?
Its a change that the Canadian model has never successfully supported before. Our industry has adapted to too many pilots and too much industry cycling by keeping wages low and making the progression process quite onerous. Work the ramp, anyone? Any systemic change can only be good for the whole industry. Jazz will not be able to only hire newbies as they will need crew capable of upgrading long before these guys are ready, so you will see DEC schemes introduced first, a much better way to get hired.
If Jazz is not getting good candidates now, it is setting up a way to get known quantities and will spend less on recruiting. They will then spend waay more on training, but that's a different department, a different budget and will have different results.
I'd rather be boiled in oil than work for Jazz, all those old crappy Dash 8s, with short legs to the same crappy destinations, day in and day out for the rest of your life for crappy pay. How long do you think it will take before you 'know' the Dash? Maybe 100 hours? Hell on earth. You guys should be happy that you've avoided that crap. If you really badly want airlines, don't mess about with the regionals.
If you are doing a sim evaluation and REALLY want to work for them, rent a simulator for a few hours and get good at it before you walk in, then you will have to screw something else up to not get hired.
Much ado about nothing.
Its a change that the Canadian model has never successfully supported before. Our industry has adapted to too many pilots and too much industry cycling by keeping wages low and making the progression process quite onerous. Work the ramp, anyone? Any systemic change can only be good for the whole industry. Jazz will not be able to only hire newbies as they will need crew capable of upgrading long before these guys are ready, so you will see DEC schemes introduced first, a much better way to get hired.
If Jazz is not getting good candidates now, it is setting up a way to get known quantities and will spend less on recruiting. They will then spend waay more on training, but that's a different department, a different budget and will have different results.
I'd rather be boiled in oil than work for Jazz, all those old crappy Dash 8s, with short legs to the same crappy destinations, day in and day out for the rest of your life for crappy pay. How long do you think it will take before you 'know' the Dash? Maybe 100 hours? Hell on earth. You guys should be happy that you've avoided that crap. If you really badly want airlines, don't mess about with the regionals.
If you are doing a sim evaluation and REALLY want to work for them, rent a simulator for a few hours and get good at it before you walk in, then you will have to screw something else up to not get hired.
Much ado about nothing.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=27151xsbank wrote: Jazz will have to have a DEC scheme, because they will need people to upgrade long before the cadets are ready. This happened in the past when airlines hired cadets then had nobody qualified to upgrade.
Incorrect.. TC has just changed the co-pilot time rule and the cadets hours of 1 will count for 1... So in two years they'll be captains...
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JohnnyHotRocks
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1084
- Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18 am
Lots of talk about lowering the already shitty starting salary because of the 250hr wonders...Can't see the union allowing this...are they going to pay based on experience?
Alot of guys seem really pissed about the whole idea...I for one would have jumped at the chance to make 33k flying for Jazz right out of college, instead of instructing and working ramp for a shitty 18k...and freezing my nuts off, etc, etc...
Just because we "paid our dues", most of us think everyone should have to...everytime someone gets a better deal in aviation, we should be happy because it will bring the rest of us even higher...this "shortage" of pilots that has started to appear has been great for alot of people, myself included...enjoy it while it lasts and benefit from it as much as you can!
Alot of guys seem really pissed about the whole idea...I for one would have jumped at the chance to make 33k flying for Jazz right out of college, instead of instructing and working ramp for a shitty 18k...and freezing my nuts off, etc, etc...
Just because we "paid our dues", most of us think everyone should have to...everytime someone gets a better deal in aviation, we should be happy because it will bring the rest of us even higher...this "shortage" of pilots that has started to appear has been great for alot of people, myself included...enjoy it while it lasts and benefit from it as much as you can!
Nah, When they find out that they need the ATPL and have to go fly a navajo up north to get the PIC time and find out that no one will hire them do to useless time.
What do you mean you won't hire me, I got 3500 hours of jet time. Well son where is your pic time, you want to fly in a sparsley settled area yet you haven't had to make a decision in your career yet. mmmm
Good Luck
What do you mean you won't hire me, I got 3500 hours of jet time. Well son where is your pic time, you want to fly in a sparsley settled area yet you haven't had to make a decision in your career yet. mmmm
Good Luck
I would love to get more info on this as I cannot believe that this crap would actually happen.
Does anyone have a little more in the way of proof that this is happening or is this just a troll post driving people to insanity.
Someone mentioned Jazz's website had info on it but could not find anything of the sort
Does anyone have a little more in the way of proof that this is happening or is this just a troll post driving people to insanity.
Someone mentioned Jazz's website had info on it but could not find anything of the sort
They will need PIC time... Which they won't get with Jazzcyyz wrote:http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=27151xsbank wrote: Jazz will have to have a DEC scheme, because they will need people to upgrade long before the cadets are ready. This happened in the past when airlines hired cadets then had nobody qualified to upgrade.
Incorrect.. TC has just changed the co-pilot time rule and the cadets hours of 1 will count for 1... So in two years they'll be captains...
From CARs 421.34(4)
"(a) 250 hours pilot-in-command flight time in aeroplanes which shall include where applicable, a maximum of 100 hours pilot-in-command under supervision flight time completed in accordance with Section 421.11. The pilot-in-command and/or pilot-in-command under supervision flight time shall include a minimum of 100 hours cross-country flight time of which a minimum of 25 hours shall have been by night;"
I doubt they will have 150 hrs PIC when they get to Jazz...
Max
so they'll rent a 150 for 100 hours and they'll have their PIC...
Didn't air canada apply for special status for CPLers at 1 point in the 70s or what have you when they tried this very scheme?
A simple call to TC and things will get worked out to get their CPl'd FO's to ATPL or Capt status.....
Don't be thinking otherwise...
Didn't air canada apply for special status for CPLers at 1 point in the 70s or what have you when they tried this very scheme?
A simple call to TC and things will get worked out to get their CPl'd FO's to ATPL or Capt status.....
Don't be thinking otherwise...
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BankAngle1987
- Rank 1
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:57 pm
- Location: Southport, MB
Well Bravo everyone. You've managed to demonstrate exactly the type of attitude that has kept this industry in a slump for decades. Of course we all realize the type of hard work that is involved in getting into companies like Jazz, but let’s take a look outside of Canada’s narrow little box for a second shall we? What other countries employ this “crock” of a cadet program…hmm…England, Germany, most of Europe actually, South Africa, China…but of course, what do these countries know right? After all they’re not half as successful as our booming aviation industry 
.
I would very much doubt that back when all of you were green as grass, you would have snubbed your nose at an opportunity like this. But wait, you never got the opportunity right? Because before you were flying, there was a whole other generation of angry, self piteous pilots, ready to shoot down any ideas that threatened to provide the prospect of success for young graduates. This whole situation is very reminiscent of “I could have been” talk around the bridge table at a senior’s home.
Perhaps if your responses had a little less resentment, and a little more suggestion as to how to improve the idea of a Canadian cadet program, the aviation industry might actually progress. But I suppose you’re right. It’s much better to fill the cockpit with stubborn experienced pilots rather than young, open-minded rookies that actually still possess an ounce of passion for the job. With comments like yours, it’s a miracle anyone even wants to be a pilot.
. I would very much doubt that back when all of you were green as grass, you would have snubbed your nose at an opportunity like this. But wait, you never got the opportunity right? Because before you were flying, there was a whole other generation of angry, self piteous pilots, ready to shoot down any ideas that threatened to provide the prospect of success for young graduates. This whole situation is very reminiscent of “I could have been” talk around the bridge table at a senior’s home.
Perhaps if your responses had a little less resentment, and a little more suggestion as to how to improve the idea of a Canadian cadet program, the aviation industry might actually progress. But I suppose you’re right. It’s much better to fill the cockpit with stubborn experienced pilots rather than young, open-minded rookies that actually still possess an ounce of passion for the job. With comments like yours, it’s a miracle anyone even wants to be a pilot.
