Logging time on non-Canadian aircraft

FL_CH · Post by **FL_CH** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:50 am

Here's the situation. I'm going away for the summer and will have an opprotunity to rent a twin (Seneca) for $170/hr (air time!), which, I think, is a sweet deal.

Now the question is, since the airplane is not going to be Canadian or US registered, could I still log time on it as a PIC (provided I have my Canadian multi rating and an instructor checks me out on that airplane)?

What if i don't have a multi, but I fly with an instructor, can I still log DUAL?

Thanks for help!

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:11 pm

To log command time on a foreign aircraft you will need a foreign licence unless it is in a country in which you have a valid licence. Some countries have Licence Validation Certificates to validate your licence in their airspace for a limited time. You might ask the owners of the aircraft about this.

Find out what the rules are in the country you are going to be in. Your canadian licence does not cover you unless the aircraft is canadian registered or the aircraft is in canada.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:24 pm

It isn't the letters on the side of the aircraft that's the problem.

The problem is that the foreign country may have very different definitions of PIC, etc, and that may not correspond to the columns you have in your logbook.

This can be a real pain in the *ss when you try to get your ATPL.

For example, PIC in the USA is NOT the same as PIC in Canada.

In the past, Transport has strongly recommended that you log the time in the foreign aircraft in a separate logbook, so that down the road, you can clearly determine what your times really are.

DHQ · Post by **DHQ** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:32 pm

If you fly an airplane, then log it. That's how I see it anyway.

Whether or not your flying is legal, etc, is a separate issue.

Idriveplane · Post by **Idriveplane** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:32 pm

Whats the difference b/w PIC in the states and here? Just wondering

Tango01 · Post by **Tango01** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:37 pm

You may go ahead and log it in your canadian logbook. Just make sure that you meet that coutry's requirement.

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:40 pm

As Tango01 says, no problem. In most other countries you can get your licence validated in a simple, administrative procedure. Then if you are flying as a PIC, log the time, no sweat.

Are you talking about Argentina?

RVR6000 · Post by **RVR6000** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:55 pm

Can we fly US registered A/C in US, or we need a FAA validation.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:57 pm

I should mention that if you have your ATPL already, feel free to log whatever and however you wish - Transport's had their last kick at your can, with respect to Canadian licences.

Whats the difference b/w PIC in the states and here?

In Canada, there is only ONE pilot-in-command (PIC) and it is agreed upon before flight, as per the CARs. That person has the responsibility and the authority for the flight, and that's who Transport is going to hang if anything goes wrong. The PIC does not necessary touch the controls. He may spend the entire flight asleep in the back (I know an AC pilot that does that).

In the USA, PIC is a very bizarre and slippery term. The FAA allows pilots to log PIC, for example, if they are hand-flying, even though they do not have responsibility for the flight. You can log PIC if you are necessary (ie lookout pilot). There are various amusing scenarios that you can concoct in which you have 3, 4, 5 or 6 pilots all legally logging PIC in the USA during a single flight.

This naturally drives Transport bonkers when someone arrives to get their ATPL, because a lot of his USA PIC time isn't PIC, according to the CARs, which can really foul up your application for your Cdn commercial or ATPL
if time is logged in different countries with different rules as to logging time.

dangerous · Post by **dangerous** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 7:38 pm

Hedley, I've got to say the I think TC's idea of PIC is much better than the FAA's. There should only be one PIC for a flight.

Louis · Post by **Louis** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:43 pm

Hedley wrote:There are various amusing scenarios that you can concoct in which you have 3, 4, 5 or 6 pilots all legally logging PIC in the USA during a single flight.

I can easily imagine 3 (instructor in the back seat, someone under the hood, and the other as a lookout) but four and up? How?

Goodbye,

Louis

FL_CH · Post by **FL_CH** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:31 pm

I guess I better stay dual. I don't want to log it for any licence purposes, it's just that I want to keep my logbook an actual LOG book with all the flights I do as a crew member.

Is there any possible problem with logging DUAL? I mean, it should be pretty straightforward.

AAAME · Post by **AAAME** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:12 am

I Had about 1500 hours flying European and American registered aircraft when I went to get my ATPL and I had no problems with TC. They never ask to see my Licences to fly those aircraft. They just wanted to see my Canadian licence.
That said,I had Validation from the foriegn country,s to fly those planes.
The way I see it Experience is Experience and they can't take that away from you and TC understands that also I believe.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:21 am

AAAME wrote:I Had about 1500 hours flying European and American
.

was that all PIC??

How much time did you submit with your application?

PS. And when I called the TC office the inspector mentioned that they wanted you to list PIC PF if you were in a yankee aircraft.

TC can be anal one day and glance at a book the next...

fougapilot · Post by **fougapilot** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:02 am

FL CH,

It depends a lot on which country the bird is registered. For example, the FAR (USA) require the pilot to have a US certificate when flying a Us registered airplane while in the US. If you plan on flying a US airplane outside the US you need a certificate / license issued either in the US OR in the country in which the flight is being conducted.

However, I do not know of any country that allow anyone to fly an airplane registered in their country without a license issued in their country (or a foreign validation). If I were you, I would ask someone in the country where you plan on flying. A foreign validation is usually very simple to obtain.

F

C-GPFG · Post by **C-GPFG** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:29 pm

RVR6000 wrote:Can we fly US registered A/C in US, or we need a FAA validation.

No, you are only allowed to fly "N" reg aircraft with your Canadian licence in Canadian airspace. You can't fly into the US on that aircraft without a US validation. I was given the go ahead over the phone with TC to teach on a "N" reg plane only in Canada. I couldn't find the CARs reference for that, and wasn't given one.

AAAME · Post by **AAAME** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:10 pm

About 140 hours were pic the rest was copilot time.
Your right tho it all depends on who you talk to at TC

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:52 pm

I was given the go ahead over the phone with TC to teach on a "N" reg plane only in Canada. I couldn't find the CARs reference for that

I believe the applicable regulation would not be in the CARs, but instead in FAA FAR 61.(3)(a)(1) which says:

However, when the aircraft is operated in a foreign country, a current pilot license issued by the country in which the aircraft is operated may be used

N.B.

it all depends on who you talk to at TC

Indeed, the near-legendary capriciousness and randomness with which the CARs are applied, goes very much to the core of Transport's corporate culture.

frac · Post by **frac** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:57 pm

fougapilot wrote:FL CH,

However, I do not know of any country that allow anyone to fly an airplane registered in their country without a license issued in their country (or a foreign validation). If I were you, I would ask someone in the country where you plan on flying. A foreign validation is usually very simple to obtain.

F

For your information, UK allows that for private, VFR flying.

A licence issued by any other ICAO Contracting State (including a JAA State that has not yet been recommended for mutual recognition) is also deemed to be valid under the ANO for the purposes of flying a UK registered aircraft, providing that the licence and medical are valid in accordance with the rules/laws of the issuing State, and the CAA does not in the particular case give direction to the contrary. However, Article 21 (4) (a) states that the holder of such a licence cannot:

1) Act as a member of the flight crew of any aircraft flying for the purpose of public transport or aerial work or on any flight in respect of which he receives remuneration for his services as a member of the flight crew; or

2) In the case of a pilot’s licence, act as a pilot of any aircraft flying in controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules or to give any instruction in flying.

Where a licence contains any extraordinary operational or medical limitations, individuals should contact PLD for advice.

rsandor · Post by **rsandor** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:07 am

Here's the situation. I'm going away for the summer and will have an opprotunity to rent a twin (Seneca) for $170/hr (air time!), which, I think, is a sweet deal.

Cool.

Now the question is, since the airplane is not going to be Canadian or US registered, could I still log time on it as a PIC (provided I have my Canadian multi rating and an instructor checks me out on that airplane)?

That's depends entirely on the laws of the country you are flying in.

What if i don't have a multi, but I fly with an instructor, can I still log DUAL?

Yes you log it as Dual ME - Night if applicable - IFR/Hood if applicable. If they let you fly it alone, it's PIC ME! yay!

There is no law (that I could find) regarding how you log foreign a/c time in a Canadian logbook, but if you choose to do so, you should log it under the equivalant CDN column, and then in the comments field, make note of type of time that would've been logged in the original foreign country.

Can anyone confirm if TC will actually contact the foreign owners of an a/c to check if the time logged in a CDN logbook matches with the foreign a/c's logbook?

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:26 am

foreign a/c's logbook

What logbook? In the USA, there is no such thing as our quaint journey log, just an airframe log and an engine log, used by the mechanic.

It is important to remember that the primary purpose of a (Canadian) Journey Log is so that it can be subpeonaed by Transport, and used by Transport in legal proceedings as evidence against a pilot. Ever wonder why Transport gets so steamed when entries in the journey log are not 100% accurate?

FL_CH · Post by **FL_CH** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:05 am

OK, apparently, there is NO separate multi-engine rating required for that country.
so, if I show up there, show my Canadian PPL, validate it, I can log ME PIC without a Canadian Multi rating...

But then I come back home and isn't TC gonna hang me by the balls, or since it's not Canada, they wouldn't care?

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:01 am

the near-legendary capriciousness and randomness with which the CARs are applied, goes very much to the core of Transport's corporate culture.

Welcome to the grey world of reality

If you intend to (legally) fly a twin engine aircraft by yourself, without a multi-rating, I might humbly suggest the following procedure on takeoff:

1) flaps up, mixtures rich, props forward, boost pumps on as recommended, engine control friction cranked up

2) throttles forward

3) rotate after blue line

4) if an engine quits right after rotation, both throttles to idle, land

5) Gear up. During climbout, move your right hand from the throttles to the props

6) if an engine fails at low altitude, immediately lower the nose to 5 degrees pitch up, and if the aircraft yaws right, pull the right prop control all the way back, past the detent. If the aircraft yaws left, pull the left prop control all the way back, past the detent. DO NOT LET THE SPEED DECREASE BELOW BLUE LINE. If the airspeed decreases to red line, pull both throttles.

The above is what I would describe as meatball multi-engine flying. It doesn't deal with overspeed, but it will keep you alive during an EFATO if you aren't going to get an multi-rating.

Please, please, learn how the fuel system works. You would not believe how many people crash with the engine windmilling and fuel still in a tank. Learn about this thing called "cross-feed". Check all the drains for water.

Learn how the gear system works - esp the emergency extension procedure.

Learn how a Janitrol heater works - I recommend you leave it off, if at all possible, if you are in some 3rd work country where maintenance is sub-standard.

Try to remember to check "gear down" on final. How much retractable time do you have? Do Vlo and Vle ring a bell?

Hint: you can descend, and you can slow down, but not both at the same time.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:06 am

" But then I come back home and isn't TC gonna hang me by the balls, or since it's not Canada, they wouldn't care? "

FL_CH I see you have a fear of TC, was this part of the training you received from your instructors?

FL_CH · Post by **FL_CH** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:43 pm

No, Cat. In fact, my instructors were rather relaxed in their thoughts about TC. I don't 'fear' TC, I just want to deal with them as little as possible, preferably never.

Hedley,
Thank you.
I want to live too, I'll ensure I know most of the stuff. Like I said, I'll be going up with an instructor first, I will just not have an official rating.