RFN
Phoned a buddy of mine as told him what you said you would pay for.
You can just donate the $5.00 to the heart and stroke foundation, or use it to buy beer, on which the condition is that you must say loud enough for the whole bar to hear, "I am a bigmouthed shmuck"
Otherwise PM and I will give you the address...I trust you were not just beaking off.
And as an aside, for the most part I think flying a float plane in the bush is one heck of a lot harder than flying as a FO on a Dash. It uses all your skills.
Hey Jazz...
Moderators: Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, I WAS Birddog
How can people really think that some extra home reading or a great attitude can substitute experience?
I'm driving along the hi-way in my truck at 100kph or whatever and holding my coffee and decide to drop down the sunvisor cuz that goddamn sunrise again. At the very same instant I cross the bridge I do every day but today was different. Today it was much slicker than usual. My attention is diverted and I am not expecting anything unusual but I feel it. A sideways motion. I look down at the road and see I am crabbing about 30degrees to the left, other hi-way travellers surround me. Without thinking I let off the accelerator and gently steer out of the impending spin and guess what? I'm alive and I didn't even spill my coffee.
I only tell that story because I want people to know I am a smooth automotive operator and also because experience and experience only saved me an insurance claim that morning.
I know they teach kids in drivers ed what to do but if that would've happened to me when I was 16, I probably would be driving a rental car this week.
Metaphor for Jazz.
There's a reason experience is the best teacher, because it's fu*king scary and there is no rewind button.
I'm driving along the hi-way in my truck at 100kph or whatever and holding my coffee and decide to drop down the sunvisor cuz that goddamn sunrise again. At the very same instant I cross the bridge I do every day but today was different. Today it was much slicker than usual. My attention is diverted and I am not expecting anything unusual but I feel it. A sideways motion. I look down at the road and see I am crabbing about 30degrees to the left, other hi-way travellers surround me. Without thinking I let off the accelerator and gently steer out of the impending spin and guess what? I'm alive and I didn't even spill my coffee.
I only tell that story because I want people to know I am a smooth automotive operator and also because experience and experience only saved me an insurance claim that morning.
I know they teach kids in drivers ed what to do but if that would've happened to me when I was 16, I probably would be driving a rental car this week.
Metaphor for Jazz.
There's a reason experience is the best teacher, because it's fu*king scary and there is no rewind button.
Sell crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up here
What is with the anger around here?
I don't get it, it is OK for someone to fly a float plane in the bush with 250 hours and you would send your family with them but if they are in an RJ it is a no go. Personally I think I would rather do the RJ route, they are an easier to fly airplane.
Jazz is doing this in conjuction with ALPA, Transport and The federation of Aviation Colleges. It is a pilot project to see how things go, so far there are talking about 5 students total this year.
The biggest reason they are doing this is planning for the future when there are not enough pilots left anywhere. Things are going like gangbusters right now and unfortunately for the last few years there have been no pilots getting their licences. That is through colleges or flight schools or whatever oither way. So in a few years all operators are going to be having a hard time finding pilots, just check with 704 operators right now a lot of them are having a hard time.
As to experience, yes it is good but it is useless if you don't have the brains to use them. And when it comes to something that is outside the SOPS, creativity and understanding an AC systems inside and out is going to get you a lot further than experience, look at Transat in the Azores.
I don't get it, it is OK for someone to fly a float plane in the bush with 250 hours and you would send your family with them but if they are in an RJ it is a no go. Personally I think I would rather do the RJ route, they are an easier to fly airplane.
Jazz is doing this in conjuction with ALPA, Transport and The federation of Aviation Colleges. It is a pilot project to see how things go, so far there are talking about 5 students total this year.
The biggest reason they are doing this is planning for the future when there are not enough pilots left anywhere. Things are going like gangbusters right now and unfortunately for the last few years there have been no pilots getting their licences. That is through colleges or flight schools or whatever oither way. So in a few years all operators are going to be having a hard time finding pilots, just check with 704 operators right now a lot of them are having a hard time.
As to experience, yes it is good but it is useless if you don't have the brains to use them. And when it comes to something that is outside the SOPS, creativity and understanding an AC systems inside and out is going to get you a lot further than experience, look at Transat in the Azores.
abflyguy wrote:What is with the anger around here?
As to experience, yes it is good but it is useless if you don't have the brains to use them. And when it comes to something that is outside the SOPS, creativity and understanding an AC systems inside and out is going to get you a lot further than experience, look at Transat in the Azores.
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Fline@9
- Rank 2
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- Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:37 pm
- Location: Center of the Universe (aka. YYZ)
Now there's inexperience talking.abflyguy wrote:...creativity and understanding an AC systems inside and out is going to get you a lot further than experience, look at Transat in the Azores.
Kindly enlighten us then with what system, SOP or checklist would one refer to when required to dead stick an A330 from FL310? Sorry for sounding smug and I say this with no callousness, but please share your creativity or systems knowledge with us "experienced" (but apparently not so useful anymore) old timers.
Please, no more witty sayings, smug advice, or bitter posts from low timers. Pay your dues. Be patient...
Fline
Understanding the fuel system would have stopped them dead sticking it at all. One engine landing with a fuel imbalance would have been a hell of a lot better than running out. They both even said a number of times that "this doesn't seem right", but they couldn't get what the system was telling them directly or indirectly.
Dead sticking wasn't the hard part that was trim and luck. Not gettting to that position would have been harder.
Understanding the fuel system would have stopped them dead sticking it at all. One engine landing with a fuel imbalance would have been a hell of a lot better than running out. They both even said a number of times that "this doesn't seem right", but they couldn't get what the system was telling them directly or indirectly.
Dead sticking wasn't the hard part that was trim and luck. Not gettting to that position would have been harder.
abcflyguy
Hate to spell it out for you, but EXPERIENCE was the only thing that saved that crew.
If it was a Seneca grad with 250 hours in the right seat, the only difference would have been A) Only one pilot would have been quoted as saying " that doesn't look right" because the 250 hr guy wouldn't have any EXPERIENCE to draw upon to know what looks right and what looks wrong and 2) The problem probably would have taken longer to recognise because the captain would have been BABYSITTING the F/O instead of watching the A/C
The only people who can't see the stupidity and $$ driving motivation behind Jazz's choices here are you 250 hour pilot's that don't know any better.
Don't worry about it though, I would have had the same oppinion as you when I had 250 hrs. I would have jumped at the chance too.
Problem is, Jazz screams safety, they just have proven to me they don't mean a word of it.
Sickening.
PS: FWIW according to the MEC chairman, ALPA has not endorsed this plan, and until they do ( and they won't IMO ) Jazz can't actually go ahead with it. Specifically because ALPA controls the seniority lists, andwithout access to them i guess these new pilots would be the equivilent to scabs, but that is just a guess.
I know I personally will be doing everything in my ( limited ) power to ensure I doesn't happen. Letters, emails, phone calls, whatever it takes.
It is BS, unsafe, and belittles our profession.
Hate to spell it out for you, but EXPERIENCE was the only thing that saved that crew.
If it was a Seneca grad with 250 hours in the right seat, the only difference would have been A) Only one pilot would have been quoted as saying " that doesn't look right" because the 250 hr guy wouldn't have any EXPERIENCE to draw upon to know what looks right and what looks wrong and 2) The problem probably would have taken longer to recognise because the captain would have been BABYSITTING the F/O instead of watching the A/C
The only people who can't see the stupidity and $$ driving motivation behind Jazz's choices here are you 250 hour pilot's that don't know any better.
Don't worry about it though, I would have had the same oppinion as you when I had 250 hrs. I would have jumped at the chance too.
Problem is, Jazz screams safety, they just have proven to me they don't mean a word of it.
Sickening.
PS: FWIW according to the MEC chairman, ALPA has not endorsed this plan, and until they do ( and they won't IMO ) Jazz can't actually go ahead with it. Specifically because ALPA controls the seniority lists, andwithout access to them i guess these new pilots would be the equivilent to scabs, but that is just a guess.
I know I personally will be doing everything in my ( limited ) power to ensure I doesn't happen. Letters, emails, phone calls, whatever it takes.
It is BS, unsafe, and belittles our profession.
Just callin it like it is.
Ok First I am not a 250 hour wonder I have around 6000 hours.
Second The Captain of the Transat flight had all kinds of experience and he was part of the problem not the solution. You really should read the actual reports on the accident.
Third, just because someone else is getting a break instead of you doesn't mean it is wrong.
Oh yeah I work at jazz too.
Second The Captain of the Transat flight had all kinds of experience and he was part of the problem not the solution. You really should read the actual reports on the accident.
Third, just because someone else is getting a break instead of you doesn't mean it is wrong.
Oh yeah I work at jazz too.
As stated many times in this thread and many others – why hire a no timer with a good attitude when you could hire an experienced pilot with a good attitude? There is NO shortage, and there won’t be for many years. Look at all the 1000-hour instructors out there let alone the 2000-hour turbine copilots out there that would jump at this opportunity.
ABflyguy, let me ask you this…how many times have the captains you’ve flown with made mistakes that required your immediate input? I know I’ve had a few interesting situations that required my advocating my position, most not dangerous, but one situation was.
I ask myself if a low time pilot would have understood what was going on, let alone spoke their mind, and was persistent that something was wrong.
Then there is the flip side; new pilots don’t understand the finer points of cockpit communication – when to speak up, and when to bite your tongue.
The RJ is not a user-friendly plane when it comes to mistakes on takeoff or landing. Infact it was the most failed course at Air Canada back in the day, and was considered the hardest plane to fly they had because of a lack of automation and it’s low wings and narrow wheelbase. So the AC pilots say.
It’s going to be a pretty big jump for a pilot coming off the BE55/172, and again, they will lack the experience to see when shits going wrong at a critical point and correct accordingly in a timely manner, regardless of how much sim time one gets.
Anyway, good luck to the candidates. Please don’t take our comments/concerns personally (we were all new aspiring pilots once).
We may disagree with management on this topic, but understand it’s a great opportunity for you new pilots, and hopefully you won’t come across any attitude (or bring any to Jazz, I assure you that will be met badly)
I hear it’s a pretty intensive interview process, a great experience just to go through it weather successful for not.
ABflyguy, let me ask you this…how many times have the captains you’ve flown with made mistakes that required your immediate input? I know I’ve had a few interesting situations that required my advocating my position, most not dangerous, but one situation was.
I ask myself if a low time pilot would have understood what was going on, let alone spoke their mind, and was persistent that something was wrong.
Then there is the flip side; new pilots don’t understand the finer points of cockpit communication – when to speak up, and when to bite your tongue.
The RJ is not a user-friendly plane when it comes to mistakes on takeoff or landing. Infact it was the most failed course at Air Canada back in the day, and was considered the hardest plane to fly they had because of a lack of automation and it’s low wings and narrow wheelbase. So the AC pilots say.
It’s going to be a pretty big jump for a pilot coming off the BE55/172, and again, they will lack the experience to see when shits going wrong at a critical point and correct accordingly in a timely manner, regardless of how much sim time one gets.
Anyway, good luck to the candidates. Please don’t take our comments/concerns personally (we were all new aspiring pilots once).
We may disagree with management on this topic, but understand it’s a great opportunity for you new pilots, and hopefully you won’t come across any attitude (or bring any to Jazz, I assure you that will be met badly)
I hear it’s a pretty intensive interview process, a great experience just to go through it weather successful for not.
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Trey Kule,
I would be glad to donate 5$ to the Heart and Stroke Foundation (I'm sure it's an investment that I should make as I intend to use their services). Just please explain to me how your buddy told off a float operator for asking 500hrs for a 185 when "it only takes 250 to fly an RJ". Please include the name of the operator (or at least what their reaction was) and why your buddy would say something so stupid.
I have no intention of admitting to being "a loudmouth shmuck" though.
I'm curious what makes you think that I am...
I would be glad to donate 5$ to the Heart and Stroke Foundation (I'm sure it's an investment that I should make as I intend to use their services). Just please explain to me how your buddy told off a float operator for asking 500hrs for a 185 when "it only takes 250 to fly an RJ". Please include the name of the operator (or at least what their reaction was) and why your buddy would say something so stupid.
I have no intention of admitting to being "a loudmouth shmuck" though.
I'm curious what makes you think that I am...
My opinion, safety is an issue but not the only one. It can be argued that someone with lots of experience can become complacent and by their actions contribute to an unsafe situation. There is no denying that the college grad will know their SOP's, systems etc. They will definately not bring with them any operational experience and every situation at first will be new to them. Eventually they will learn however this can only be accomplished with everyone playing their role, which does not seem likely at this stage.
Mgmt at Jazz (read ACE) argues there is going to be a shortage. They back this up with all sorts of statistics, the same stuff we have been hearing for 20 years. This shortage is one of their own making as you only need to see how they have mis-managed everything.
The introduction of this trial project, in my opinion has more to do with $$$ rather than addressing any potential for a future pilot shortage. They are looking to recruit a workforce that will have no where to go in the short term. And that is how they think, short term.
The real danger in my opinion is the likelihood that mgmt will try to introduce yet another pay scale. This should not happen regardless of their experience as this will just open the door to further reductions and erosion of the working conditions. Just look south of the border, as this is exactly what mgmt proposes to do.
Mgmt at Jazz (read ACE) argues there is going to be a shortage. They back this up with all sorts of statistics, the same stuff we have been hearing for 20 years. This shortage is one of their own making as you only need to see how they have mis-managed everything.
The introduction of this trial project, in my opinion has more to do with $$$ rather than addressing any potential for a future pilot shortage. They are looking to recruit a workforce that will have no where to go in the short term. And that is how they think, short term.
The real danger in my opinion is the likelihood that mgmt will try to introduce yet another pay scale. This should not happen regardless of their experience as this will just open the door to further reductions and erosion of the working conditions. Just look south of the border, as this is exactly what mgmt proposes to do.
RFN
Now pay close attention.
I posted "I called a buddy" Means me. The buddy I called owns a chater operation that has float planes who is a friend of mine. I was not looking for a job.
I told him word for word what you said you would pay for. His reaction.
Pretty much the same as mine. Honor your word.
Pay up.
Now, so you dont feel I took advantage of the semantics of your promise (after all I dont want to be called an anti- semantic or Niss will be posting all about me)
But. It takes different skills to fly a float plane that it does to sit in the right seat of an RJ. to be bloody honest, it doesnt take much of a pilot to be the FO of many of the regional type aircraft. ...and that is not to give an opinion of any of the FO's themselves.To fly a float plane you are responsible for pretty much everything, and a pilot really develops decision making skills . My opinion anyway.
The problem I have alway had, is that the low time pilots slipping into the right seat are unable to get the necessary expereince to upgrade. It is not a matter of mentoring, training etc., it is simply that no matter what you do as a FO there is a captain sitting there who has their butt on the line and they are not going to let you do something stupid which has the result of not allowing decision making skills. The other issues I have is that line flying is real time flying with passangers on board and is not the place for training to happen with regard to basic flying skills such as an approach in real IMC etc.
I only post because there seems to be a large number of new pilots who feel that it is a companies/cps/captains job to train them. They never seem to be able to grasp the concept of a fully qualified crew. The end result of all this makes me nervous. Am I nervous about flying with Jazz with these new pilots...no. But I will get nervous when some of them start moving over to the left seat in a few years.
This is all about money, and Jazz management, like the others that have tried this beofre, will be surprised when the accident comes.
Now pay close attention.
I posted "I called a buddy" Means me. The buddy I called owns a chater operation that has float planes who is a friend of mine. I was not looking for a job.
I told him word for word what you said you would pay for. His reaction.
Pretty much the same as mine. Honor your word.
Pay up.
Now, so you dont feel I took advantage of the semantics of your promise (after all I dont want to be called an anti- semantic or Niss will be posting all about me)
But. It takes different skills to fly a float plane that it does to sit in the right seat of an RJ. to be bloody honest, it doesnt take much of a pilot to be the FO of many of the regional type aircraft. ...and that is not to give an opinion of any of the FO's themselves.To fly a float plane you are responsible for pretty much everything, and a pilot really develops decision making skills . My opinion anyway.
The problem I have alway had, is that the low time pilots slipping into the right seat are unable to get the necessary expereince to upgrade. It is not a matter of mentoring, training etc., it is simply that no matter what you do as a FO there is a captain sitting there who has their butt on the line and they are not going to let you do something stupid which has the result of not allowing decision making skills. The other issues I have is that line flying is real time flying with passangers on board and is not the place for training to happen with regard to basic flying skills such as an approach in real IMC etc.
I only post because there seems to be a large number of new pilots who feel that it is a companies/cps/captains job to train them. They never seem to be able to grasp the concept of a fully qualified crew. The end result of all this makes me nervous. Am I nervous about flying with Jazz with these new pilots...no. But I will get nervous when some of them start moving over to the left seat in a few years.
This is all about money, and Jazz management, like the others that have tried this beofre, will be surprised when the accident comes.
Trey,trey kule wrote:
The problem I have alway had, is that the low time pilots slipping into the right seat are unable to get the necessary expereince to upgrade. It is not a matter of mentoring, training etc., it is simply that no matter what you do as a FO there is a captain sitting there who has their butt on the line and they are not going to let you do something stupid which has the result of not allowing decision making skills.
Your logic is flawed. It's a catch 22 scenario.
My logic is flawed? hmmm. Catch 22.
No, if one hires experienced pilots as FOs (think WestJet and Air Canada), then the process is teaching them to fly the particular machine. Once experienced they have the necessary skills to upgrade and take command.
that is not the case with inexperienced pilots as they are effectively getting all their experience without ever having real command. Pretend doesnt count in a real time, pax carry scenario.
The catch 22, as I see you implying, is that if you dont have expereince, and this is a criteria, how can you get it? There is the possibility of a training program, such as the military offers, but the cost is in the millions for each pilot trained. Not something we will see soon in private industry.
There is also areas such as screening prior to starting training so that leadership skill, mature decision making skills are part of the persons character. In the civilian world one has to get their experience by working up the ladder in smaller aircraft.
But these are just my thoughts. Hope all of you will be around in about 10 years so one of us can enjoy reminding the other .
No, if one hires experienced pilots as FOs (think WestJet and Air Canada), then the process is teaching them to fly the particular machine. Once experienced they have the necessary skills to upgrade and take command.
that is not the case with inexperienced pilots as they are effectively getting all their experience without ever having real command. Pretend doesnt count in a real time, pax carry scenario.
The catch 22, as I see you implying, is that if you dont have expereince, and this is a criteria, how can you get it? There is the possibility of a training program, such as the military offers, but the cost is in the millions for each pilot trained. Not something we will see soon in private industry.
There is also areas such as screening prior to starting training so that leadership skill, mature decision making skills are part of the persons character. In the civilian world one has to get their experience by working up the ladder in smaller aircraft.
But these are just my thoughts. Hope all of you will be around in about 10 years so one of us can enjoy reminding the other .
Where is the flaw and where is the catch 22? Normal or traditional progression has always been S/E command to M/E SIC to M/E PIC.BigB wrote:Trey,trey kule wrote:
The problem I have alway had, is that the low time pilots slipping into the right seat are unable to get the necessary expereince to upgrade. It is not a matter of mentoring, training etc., it is simply that no matter what you do as a FO there is a captain sitting there who has their butt on the line and they are not going to let you do something stupid which has the result of not allowing decision making skills.
Your logic is flawed. It's a catch 22 scenario.
The Jazz method includes no command time prior to multi/jet SIC.
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rightseatwonder
- Rank 6
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- Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:21 am
- Location: M.78 FL410
P.I.C.U.S time would cover the pic time for the atpl. All I know about this situation is that these chosen few who get the job at Jazz right out of school are going to be cheating themselves out of the best part of an aviation career (IMHO)....I know the very beginning is hard..getting that first break, but I wouldn't trade any of my time for a str8 outta school shot at Jazz.
I think Jazz is a great opportunity for someone at a certain time in their career...but not right outta school...at least not for me.
rsw
I think Jazz is a great opportunity for someone at a certain time in their career...but not right outta school...at least not for me.
rsw
Isn't that a max of 100 PICUS that can be counted toward the PIC time? If they get out of college with 50-60 hrs PIC, they would still need 100 hrs..rightseatwonder wrote:P.I.C.U.S time would cover the pic time for the atpl. All I know about this situation is that these chosen few who get the job at Jazz right out of school are going to be cheating themselves out of the best part of an aviation career (IMHO)....I know the very beginning is hard..getting that first break, but I wouldn't trade any of my time for a str8 outta school shot at Jazz.
I think Jazz is a great opportunity for someone at a certain time in their career...but not right outta school...at least not for me.
rsw
Max
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rightseatwonder
- Rank 6
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- Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:21 am
- Location: M.78 FL410
Trey,
I'm not saying your concerns are wrong. I'm saying your logic is flawed. Within the para I highlighted above, your premise would imply that none of us should/would have even soloed due to our lack of experience and decision making skills (aviation related). An extreme..yes, but one that following your train of thought, is still valid.
Let's use another extreme. Let's just say the new Seneca F/Os, through absurd industry conditions, would somehow spend 25 years in the right seat before an upgrade opportunity exists. Even with 25 years' exposure to airline operations, with your logic, they would still not have the decision making skills required to upgrade.
Ask yourself, at what amount of hrs/years/mentor-ship/training would you find it reasonable for the prospective F/O to upgrade?
Perhaps I'm playing too much of a devils advocate. No malice intended.
I'm not saying your concerns are wrong. I'm saying your logic is flawed. Within the para I highlighted above, your premise would imply that none of us should/would have even soloed due to our lack of experience and decision making skills (aviation related). An extreme..yes, but one that following your train of thought, is still valid.
Let's use another extreme. Let's just say the new Seneca F/Os, through absurd industry conditions, would somehow spend 25 years in the right seat before an upgrade opportunity exists. Even with 25 years' exposure to airline operations, with your logic, they would still not have the decision making skills required to upgrade.
Ask yourself, at what amount of hrs/years/mentor-ship/training would you find it reasonable for the prospective F/O to upgrade?
Perhaps I'm playing too much of a devils advocate. No malice intended.
Trey Kule,
Ok, donation made. The response order ID# is 277489220.
Now pay close attention (where have I heard that before?).
What I meant was;
I thought it would be pretty funny if it took 500hrs to fly a C185 and only 250hrs to fly an RJ.
I thought that it would be a funny moment when a newbie told a float operator "what!? you want 500hrs!? That's twice as much as it takes to fly an RJ!"
I thought it would illustrate my argument that a person with actual experience would be a better choice for the right seat of an RJ or Dash.
What I did not anticipate, was someone reading my post, but not understanding it. My fault, and it cost me $5.
Ok, donation made. The response order ID# is 277489220.
Now pay close attention (where have I heard that before?).
What I meant was;
I thought it would be pretty funny if it took 500hrs to fly a C185 and only 250hrs to fly an RJ.
I thought that it would be a funny moment when a newbie told a float operator "what!? you want 500hrs!? That's twice as much as it takes to fly an RJ!"
I thought it would illustrate my argument that a person with actual experience would be a better choice for the right seat of an RJ or Dash.
What I did not anticipate, was someone reading my post, but not understanding it. My fault, and it cost me $5.
