I recently purchased a Grumman American AA-1 Yankee and the AME on pre-purchase listed a few snags, two of which were replacements to the main and aux vacuum filters, and the replacement of a fuse holder for the flaps.
I was quoted 90 bucks for the filters (including labour) and 75 bucks for the fuse holder (including labour).
Looking off a parts website in Texas that supplies AA-series parts, I can get all three parts (new main and aux filters, and new fuse holder) for about 27 dollars USD.
Is this kind of maintenance something I (as a pilot) do to the aircraft myself? Or would this fall under Owner Maintained maintenance which I definatly want to stay away from.
Just pay the AME, buy the time you pay shipping, and oh yah, UPS charges about 55 bucks just for the brokerage charge, the AME is giving you a deal and deserves your support. Nothing worse than an airplane owner who wants to start being cheap, you probably drive a new vehicle too right. Sorry no disrespect, but it's getting harder and harder to stay in business these days with all the B.S. in this industry. You may have noticed there are getting to be fewer and fewer General aviation AMO's out there, what are ypou going to do when none are left?
Replacing these parts yourself would, I'm fairly sure, run you into the "Owner Maintained" category.
As far as I know the replacement of vacuum filters does not enter the "elementary maintenance" category. Unfortunately I think there is nothing to do but "Bite the bullet" as they say, and pay the guy to do it.
Of course being and AME myself, you might think I am slightly biased
Rfcpilot welcome to the wonderful world of aircraft ownership. I hope someone told you that before you should ever look at buying a plane you should get up every morning and flush a $50 bill down the toilet. Once that $50 stops bothering you, you are ready to buy a plane.
I would suggest that you find an AME/AMO that you feel you can trust (ask around for referrals). Be nice to the guys in the shop and show up with coffee (or beer if its Friday) when you visit. Theses guys are not here to screw you but they are there to make a living. Bite the $200 bullet; it will not be the last.
Im not overly concerned about the price, its a few dollars extra when I just bought a plane. And no, I dont even have a drivers licence, so I definatly dont have a car.
But I look at it a see a simple fuse holder, and two air filters. Where the parts come from, doesnt matter, my AME would have to order the filters anyways. but then paying an hour of labour for all that seems a bit much. Especially when the job looks so easy. I mean if it was a spark plug job, as far as I know I can do the change myself right?
Not that Im trying to rip AMEs off, but its a two-way street. I love working on my own property, its the whole pride of ownership thing Im sure many of you can relate to. But to be quoted almost 200 bucks for all that when its not even 30 dollars worth of parts (maybe 50 bucks once tax and shipping gets added)... If it was a mag change or something a little more in depth, I'd gladly have the AME do it. Or in the case of another AME I know, have me do the work while he supervises. But an air filter and a fuse holder hardly seem like a difficult task.
Just so I know for sure, what are some of the maintenance things I CAN do myself, without an AME. Such as plugs or oil or whatever. Because in my instance it causes a few problems. A, after buying a plane, Im poor, and B, this AME services 9 club airplanes and about 50 privately owned aircraft, so booking time is hard. When I booked my pre-purchase, I had to wait 2 weeks. These filters and fuse are grounding my aircraft, and Im still waiting for a reply from him on when he'd be available. And I definatly dont like to wait another 2 weeks for that.
I can understand AMEs are busy, they work hard, yaddy yadda, but there has to be a line deviding maintenance I can do (while remaining a certified aircraft) and the maintenance an AME has to do.
So my original question remains, can I do this kind of maintenance myself or do I absolutely need his 50 dollar signature in my book?
I had a GA shop for many years and I soon learned (the hard way) that there are some aircraft that attract a specific type of owner.
There were 2 aircraft that I would not let into the shop - one was the little Grummen series singles - not because they were bad aircraft but because every single owner that I came in contact with was the same - "Super Cheap".
These were the guys that really couldn't afford the aircraft to begin with and were always looking to get everything for less than anyone else. After way too many run-ins with - "Can't you let the brake pads go for another 10 hours etc. etc." I finally quit working on them - said I was too busy or whatever and they went to my competition.
I may be partially at fault in the equation as I don't quibble about what it costs me to have an expert look at or work on any of my toys (non-aircraft) and that costs a lot more than your average AMO shop rate and I don't expect anyone to quibble about what I charge as an AME.
The other aircraft banned from the shop was the Mooney series - way to finicky - hard to work on - and usually the most arrogant owners that I have met. Found that I could not make any money on the aircraft as everything took too long to do in the eyes of the owner and I just got tired of having to explain why. Easier for me not to work on them!!
I don't own an aircraft - not because I don't want to - but because even after being able to do all my own maintenance - I still can't afford to operate one properly. Low wages of the AMEs is part of the problem - but at the end of the day - If YOU can't afford to run the bloody thing - then do the responsible thing and don't get it!!!! - Do not expect someone else to carry you on their nickle.
The list of what an owner can and cannot do is spelled out in the CARs - look it up on TCs website - the searching will do you some good - in fact you might even take a side trip or 2 and learn something that you don't already know.
Good luck with the airplane - for a bug smasher they are a hoot to fly.
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You can train a monkey to ride a bicycle but you can't train it to fix it!!!
As the owner/operator of a private, unpressurized light piston aircraft, you may legally perform what is eloquently referred to by Transport Canada Aviation's laywers as "elementary maintenance".
The list of tasks which are defined as such can be found here:
I might suggest that you cultivate a relationship with an AME where you in essence apprentice for him on your aircraft. Learn from him how to perform the elementary maintenance tasks. If you have prior mechanical experience, you will not find it to be rocket science.
Items that are NOT elementary maintenance you can still perform, if you agree with your AME that he will inspect and sign it off.
Suggestion: which no doubt many will find here to be hilarious: get yourself a copy of FAA AC 43-13 and the Aircraft Spruce & Specialty catalog. Both are a wealth of knowledge.
I might also suggest you visit the Essco website and get parts and maintenance manuals for both your specific engine (get the trailing letters right) and airframe.
$165 man I wish I could have a bill like that. I just got a bill for a 100/hr and it was $2500. Freakin cheap I was tickled pink to get that one. It was the cheapest inspection I've had to date.
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A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed
Had my own maintence shop for 8 years. NEVER AGAIN!! Cheap owners are in the minority, but it's those ones that made my life hell. They wouldn't hesitate to spend $70/hr on their car or boat, but whined at my rate of $38.00. Should have heard them cry when I finally pulled the pin. Now they had to fly an hour each way. Plus hotel, meals, hookers, etc.
As the other Engineers said on this post, IF YOU CAN NOT AFFORD IT, SELL IT!!!
Suggestion: which no doubt many will find here to be hilarious: get yourself a copy of FAA AC 43-13 and the Aircraft Spruce & Specialty catalog. Both are a wealth of knowledge.
Not at all hilarious Hedley! Very good suggestion. Every private owner should have a copy of AC 43.
I do have the parts manuals and service manuals for the aircraft and the engine, kudos to the previous owner. I also do have some mechanical experience, admitedly, in the automotive, rather than aviation side. While I cant say I've changed a fuse holder before, I've done filters, spark plugs, brake pads, and a slew of other jobs on my dad's cars and such, with him looking over my shoulder making sure I dont brake anything. Cant blame him.
Thanks Hedley for the CARs link, I'll check it out ASAP. As I said, I do have the manuals required for airframe and engine. The AME at my airport, sadly, as I said is a busy guy, having to maintain 9 club planes (2 150s, 6 172s, and one Symphony 160), and a few dozen private aircraft as well. There was an AME in Nova Scotia I really enjoyed whom I met on a vacation (Im from Ontario) and his philosophy was, he's got some rather cheap rates, because he doesnt do a lot of work, as best as possible he teaches the owner how to do some of the maintenance him/herself. I may go back to him for that.
Dust Devil, the 165 bucks is just for filters and a fuse, not an annual. And it wouldnt surprise me that my first annual be something similar to yours. I've got a cracking spinner that might need replacing, the previous owner had it drilled but if it cracks again, thats it. I've also got a weak cylinder (58/80) which I hope is just lead fouling rather than a damaged exhaust valve, but who knows. And Im sure my AME will find a few more odds and ends that need fixing. Come September, I'll let you know.
splitpin, the question is not can I afford it or not, the question was, can I do it myself? I like to do as much as possible on things I own. Which for now would be the plane, a few computers, and my bicycle. Because yes I'd like to also save a few dollars, because that means more gas in the tanks and more hours in the logbook. BUT, if I HAVE to get an AME to do it, I'll gladly pay the bill.
I'll also look into that AC-43 doc, but it sounds that it's an American thing, with the FAA.?
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I see from the CARs that fuel, oil, and air filters can be changed as elementary work. They do not specify the vacuum system filters, but technically, those are air filters right? Dont argue, just tell me if Im right or wrong. If Im wrong, my AME will do it, end of discussion.
Likewise for the fuse holder, it mentions replacements of fuses, and not the holder, so I assume that's an AME task.
This RFCpilot seems a little suspicious to me. Doesn't know much but seems to have all the answers. Owns an airplane but doesn't have a drivers licence. Trying to be a teenager but doesn't talk like one. To me it just doesn't add up. They ask a question, get a straight answer, ignore it and just keep going.. Trolling??? Just a thought..
We are all entitled to our own opinions twotter. *shrugs*
Human Factor, the previous owner had the spinner crack on him repeatedly, even after drilling (I think a total of 5 times). He got a new spinner (the one currently on) and it too cracked. He replaced the backplate, drilled and added some plates to the spinner, and its been fine "since" which has only been about 20 hours of flying.
rfcPilot wrote:
I see from the CARs that fuel, oil, and air filters can be changed as elementary work. They do not specify the vacuum system filters, but technically, those are air filters right? Dont argue, just tell me if Im right or wrong. If Im wrong, my AME will do it, end of discussion.
Likewise for the fuse holder, it mentions replacements of fuses, and not the holder, so I assume that's an AME task.
The vaccuum filter is an air fliter, but is an instrument system filter so my interpretation is that is does not fit in as elementary maintenance. The fuse holder definitley does not qualify as elementary maintenance.
I agree with Hedley, find an AME willing to let you "apprentice" under his license, you will learn a lot about your airplane in the process and over time this will allow you to assist the AME in fault isolation and trouleshooting as well. Without a doubt there are many things you will need an AMEs expertice for, but needing one to change a simple filter has always seemed ludicrous to me, and I have assisted many owners in the past with similar items. No way in hell am I gonna pay a dealership a tidy sum to change a simple little filter on my car when I can do it myself for 1/3 the price, quite simply I treat aircraft owners in the way I wish my dealership treated me with my car, especially when the owner and AME are both standing there looking at the filter and realize it is a 5 minute job to change with no tools required. I have no problem handing over a bill for annuals, defect rectification, component swaps, etc., but seriously....a bloody vaccuum filter? I have seen some ridiculous bills over the years, and if I wanted to rob people like some AMEs do I would have been a lawyer. rfcPilot, talk to your AME and see if he is willing to work with you on the airplane. Saves his time, and saves you money.
RFC;
Why exactly do you want to change the instrument filters? Is it because someone said you should? Have you checked to see if they're dirty, old, damaged, or otherwise defective? A small warning, ... don’t replace stuff just because an AME said to, or you will go broke before long.
Well the fuse holder I know needs replacing... or maintenance, as you have to apply pressure on it (push on it) for the flaps to work. As for the filters, according to AYA and other sources, the main has to be changed every 400 hours and the aux, every 100 hours.
Well, the main still has about 230 hours on it, so that makes it 170 hours old or so, but 170 hours ago on the plane was perhaps 5 years. Sadly, the owners who came before the previous owner (hope that makes sense) didnt fly the plane very much. So I figure what the heck, although I didnt think to look at the filter myself. As for the aux, I've no idea when it was last replaced, maybe last annual, which was in September.
I believe that the aux you are referring to is the relief valve filter, and can be assessed visually, it is usually just a foam rubber element. If it is not dirty, or deteriorating, it would be ok to continue using it in my experience (the time of one year replacement is overkill in my opinion). The times for replacement recommended by the manufacturer are not limiting. The central filter may or may not be visually checked, many are encased in a metal hsg. Replacement before the recommended interval is not necessary unless you are operating in a dusty or polluted area, such as Southern California. Don't forget that you are your own maintenance manager, and you must be able to make good decisions regarding the maintenance of your aircraft, taking into account various operational factors. The recommendations of an AME should be considered, but not treated as gospel.
Wow, I'm impressed with the knowledge being stated here. I'm not sure why I spent all that time getting my Engineers licence when all I really had to do was buy an airplane and suddenly I'm an expert!!!!
You all go and do what you want with your little fart carts but remember, when you have an accident and something wasn't changed when it was required, you no longer have insurance or a valid C of A..
Well nothing is out of time. And I'd rather change the filters now than risk hundreds of dollars on gyro instruments in a few years. :-S The main is only 25 bucks and the aux (relief/whatever it is) is 3 bucks.
I really think its sad that someone is so cheap that they spend how many days thinking about changing filters. If you wanted the airplane so much why did you buy it in the first place, did you think that there is no maintenance to go along with it?????? simple filter changes like that are usually service items and most shops that I have worked for just change them without asking the owner cause they need to be change thats why the put filters on and to top it off life limits on them. Crazy as it sounds they do go bad and depending which one it is it may have already gone through the insturments. Then the other thing the cracked spinner?? chances are the rest of the airplane has been taken care just as good if you leave a cracked spinner what else did you leave???? sorry to sound blunt but it seems more and more there are cheap owners making good AME's and AMO's get out of GA or close down
