BAD NEWS

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:17 pm

If however you feel a 767 skipper finds it too difficult a task to cross some seat belts and pick up a bit of garbage and "coukd not do a good job grooming"...well than who am I to argue. I guesss it is a good thing pay is based on aircraft size and not degree of difficulty in work

Your statement says it all. You just have no idea and probably never will. Here's a reality check for ya to groom an airplane somewhat larger than a 737 : some 220 seat belts to cross, several garbage bins to be emptied and eight lavs to clean, pick up the garbage, remove all the blankets and pillows, replace them with new ones, then start the preflight cockpit prep for an overseas flight!! And typically with less than an hour to go before pushback. Then go flying for the next ten hours overnight. The scenario brought up earlier suggests the crew accomplish this before the groomers get there. Only JS or a WJ pilot is capable of this I guess. Yep, there's that size thing again. You can keep your "ownership". When was the last time you flew a 767? Let's move on to another topic, shall we? Apples and oranges.

Huge Hammer · Post by **Huge Hammer** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:24 pm

Anthony I don't think your reading comprehension is that great.

Nobody is suggesting doing a full groom. I am saying that to do a littlke bit in a late arrival situation would speed you along. You can't really have this kind of inability to clue in.

But as you said, you probably would not be good at it anyway.

Machiavelli · Post by **Machiavelli** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:26 pm

He'd get written up by the groomers union.

Schlem · Post by **Schlem** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:38 pm

complexintentions wrote:
Four1oh wrote: As far as being "fucking stupid", to use CanadaEh's elegant phrase, I flew the 737 and now fly the 777 and to NOT choose the latter if you could really WOULD make someone fit that description. If you feel the need to interpret that as some sort of "my airplane is larger than yours thing", it isn't and I can't help you...it simply is such a technically superior a/c I don't even know where to begin and your statement made me embarassed enough for you to motivate me to post.
..

Who gives a crap if it's technically superior... some people chose smaller less technical machines for reasons of lifestyle, time at home, where they want to live, and for the sheer joy of some hand flying in challenging conditions, and I don't mean ATC or density airspace challenges... been there, done that all over the globe and I'll take my current job any day over it.

737-200 is just fine for me and I'll take short hops and sleeping in my own bed over pushing buttons in a 767 or 777 for 10+ long, boring hours anytime.

grammar boy · Post by **grammar boy** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:05 am

Rebel wrote:grammar boy

Glad you see you back from your hibiscus. You missed a thread on the WJ forum on the YOW incident of which I was referring. Your recounting indicates another occurrence.

I think they are the same incident.

complexintentions · Post by **complexintentions** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:32 am

Schlem wrote:
complexintentions wrote:
Four1oh wrote: As far as being "fucking stupid", to use CanadaEh's elegant phrase, I flew the 737 and now fly the 777 and to NOT choose the latter if you could really WOULD make someone fit that description. If you feel the need to interpret that as some sort of "my airplane is larger than yours thing", it isn't and I can't help you...it simply is such a technically superior a/c I don't even know where to begin and your statement made me embarassed enough for you to motivate me to post.
..
Who gives a crap if it's technically superior... some people chose smaller less technical machines for reasons of lifestyle, time at home, where they want to live, and for the sheer joy of some hand flying in challenging conditions, and I don't mean ATC or density airspace challenges... been there, done that all over the globe and I'll take my current job any day over it.

737-200 is just fine for me and I'll take short hops and sleeping in my own bed over pushing buttons in a 767 or 777 for 10+ long, boring hours anytime.

Different strokes for different folks. Don't take it so personally. My point was a more general one...if you haven't done something, don't sneer at it. Which you do, by calling long-range airline ops "button-pushing". And then try and lump in LR35 repatriation flying as "been there done that". Come on. That's not even apples and oranges. That's apples and horse pies.

Let me put it to you another way. If someone flying for the JM dog and pony show out of YWG, came on here and said (after it was rumoured CGAA might get B737-200's one day) "Even if CGAA bought 737's I wouldn't be in the mob rush to get into that plane either" (the quote I reacted to)...and you knew they had never flown something besides the LR35...would you think they were the smartest, having done both yourself? I'm talking about rejecting if because "it's all button pushing and I heard the sched sucks blah blah blah", as opposed to having actually done that type of operation and preferring the bizjet. Which is FINE! But so far I haven't heard a former B777/767 pilot say it sucks...only people who haven't flown this gig.

Don't think for a moment I have anything bad to say about the 737, I loved the airplane and the job for that matter. But BESIDES the technical improvement to the B777, everything else about the job from pay to schedule to benefits to stability to destinations and layovers and F/A's and types of operations...has also been a massive improvement from where I was. Like yourself...I happen to love my job. Everyone's situation is different! My job may not be an improvement at all to you, because of course there are many variables like family, when making career decisions. But when I hear someone going..."yeah...it's no big deal" *shrug* I just think...ok...have you done it? It's harder to respect an opinion formed secondhand.

My whole post summary: don't knock it till you try it! Is that clearer?

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:57 am

He'd get written up by the groomers union

Don't laugh. That's exactly what would happen if I so much as pick up a piece of paper in front of a groomer.

Huge.
It's not my comprehension. I think the thread may have turned a little too lengthy for yours. Have a look back. My understanding from the scenario from JS was that pilots and f/a's should start grooming cause the groomers were late. Even a little would help as you say. Agreed. That's what they do at WJ so JS is implying that AC crews do the same. I understand what you're saying but in our operation (767) that wouldn't work so well. Believe me. It might on the smaller planes but again, AC has unions and you know the rest of the story. And for your information I've done my fair share of grooming (as a pilot) at previous jobs.

RB-211 · Post by **RB-211** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:44 am

Tony,

Why do you insist to have that photo of your plane next to your name? The girls must love it. Drives em wild. That femalish EMB might not have the same effect so think twice before putting it up. Just curious as always bud. Hope you are well.

grammar boy · Post by **grammar boy** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:47 am

You'd think he'd at least use a pic of the -300ER, it's bigger...

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:51 pm

RB.
Long time no hear man. Hope you are well too. Got a great picture of one of your -400s coming across the other day (I hope I haven't offended anyone with the "coming across" thing). Nigel requested I email it to him. I am honored, of course.
I put my plane back up there because I knew it would bother some of you. It seems to have worked. As you can see grammar guy (likes to call himself "boy"?

) has a size issue. This is too easy. Doesn't take much to get a pathetic reaction from the other side around here. All I see in the picture is an airplane landing. I've exposed so many of you guys but hey, anonimity has its advantages I guess. Take care old chap.

Schlem · Post by **Schlem** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:46 pm

complexintentions wrote:[quote="Schlem
Different strokes for different folks...
My whole post summary: don't knock it till you try it! Is that clearer?

Agreed completely but I have spent time up front in a 767 across the pond for hat it's worth.

My "been there done" that remark was about ATC issues and high density airspace... as that is where a large part of the challenge lies for you big big jet guys.

Fly safe!

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:22 pm

tonysoprano wrote:JS.................
Neither do I accept the panic the likes of you envoke on this great company of ours. .............. Enjoy those long layovers in LGA and look forward to those long layovers in Europe in the not so distant future. You surely don't need me to tell you that.

Tony

I agreed with the majority of your response with regard to a larger company with a 70 year history requiring time to change. I also realize that unions are reluctant to change, however, it seems that people have forgotten that the unions represent the employees, not the other way around. If "people" made the personal effort to change their attitudes and subsequently demand change from the organization representing them, there would be no choice but to change. It may be a tall order but it is a start. To just throw up our arms and shrug it off to whatever suits us at the time, does nothing. That was really the only point I was trying to make.

I am not secretly wishing I was at Westjet and I can't quite understand your contempt for them, with regard to European layovers, I did the long layovers in Europe, Asia, Hawaii, Australia, the Middle East and South America on the 767 before you ever did. After you have seen the world, a layover is a layover just as an airplane is an airplane and I don't particularly like sitting in an airplane for 12 hours at a time. Perhaps one day you too, will come to the same realization.

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:52 pm

Jaques Strappe wrote:
tonysoprano wrote:JS.................
Tony

I agreed with the majority of your response with regard to a larger company with a 70 year history requiring time to change. I also realize that unions are reluctant to change, however, it seems that people have forgotten that the unions represent the employees, not the other way around. If "people" made the personal effort to change their attitudes and subsequently demand change from the organization representing them, there would be no choice but to change. It may be a tall order but it is a start. To just throw up our arms and shrug it off to whatever suits us at the time, does nothing. That was really the only point I was trying to make.

Nicely said however it’s the radical fringe that wraps them selves in the union flag that always seem to control the agenda. The silent majority for what ever reason sits back and then bitch about the outcome. It has to change or no AC..

On a brighter note the only way to fly long haul is in the bunk..

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:53 pm

JS.
I think our union is the only one that could bring change before any other group in the company. Therein lies the problem. The rest of the group would be happy to stay as we are and let the ship sink. When it comes to my contempt for WJ, you can call it what you want, but I have only responded to some remarks which have put your company down and written it off as a gonner in the near future. You seem happy to accept those remarks or maybe just threw a blind eye towards them. To each his own JS. I'll keep doing what I do. Judging by what you say about your job, I think we see our jobs very differently. I did what you're doing now for a long time. It was a great time. I love what I do now even more. They are not "all the same" JS. Pretty shallow on your part my friend. I still think you fit in their shoes better.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:47 pm

Tony

Yes I have seen some immature remarks from the Westjet camp but I don't paint the entire group with the same brush. One can only hope that some of the stupid posts coming from the AC camp, don't tarnish everyone else.

If that is "shallow" in your books, then so be it, we will just have to agree to disagree and move on.

Best of luck in your quests.

J.S

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:59 pm

........however it’s the radical fringe that wraps them selves in the union flag that always seem to control the agenda. The silent majority for what ever reason sits back and then bitch about the outcome. It has to change or no AC..

Rebel

I could not agree more. Look at the dismal turnout for a crucial vote on constitutional changes to the way the organisation representing the pilots operates. This is just one example of the employee group simply sitting on their asses while being taken for a ride. Much like a ship crossing the ocean with nobody at the helm because everyone is sitting at the bar bitching. Introduce the merger or seniority issue and suddenly everyone wants to steer the boat. Our fellow pilot is not the enemy.

I am not sure how you get the silent majority to wake up, perhaps you need to slam into the wall?

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:24 pm

Yes I have seen some immature remarks from the Westjet camp but I don't paint the entire group with the same brush

Neither do I. And thanks for painting me that way. Gee sorry for being an embarrasment to our group. WTF?

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:52 pm

"tonysoprano"

Neither do I. And thanks for painting me that way. Gee sorry for being an embarrasment to our group. WTF?

Tony

Well I guess it is obvious how you interpreted my last post. I said the AC camp, which is pretty big and includes me. You are the one who brought up the metaphor of wearing shoes. I guess it must have fit. Wear it how ever you like, if at all. I just think we should open our eyes a bit. If I offended you, please accept my apologies.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:36 pm

grammar boy · Post by **grammar boy** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:52 pm

tonysoprano wrote:RB.
I put my plane back up there because I knew it would bother some of you. It seems to have worked. As you can see grammar guy (likes to call himself "boy"? ) has a size issue. This is too easy. Doesn't take much to get a pathetic reaction from the other side around here. All I see in the picture is an airplane landing. I've exposed so many of you guys but hey, anonimity has its advantages I guess. Take care old chap.

No issues here, I know my dick is small, I just don't compensate by bragging about my airplane!

p.s. have we worked together at a previous company?

WJ700 · Post by **WJ700** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:22 pm

I like Tony's 767 pic, but the -300ER does have nicer lines.

Grammer Boy, I think I just realized from your post why our wives hang out with each other so much.

(and now, back to the soap opera....)

complexintentions · Post by **complexintentions** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:51 am

Schlem wrote:
complexintentions wrote:[quote="Schlem
Different strokes for different folks...
My whole post summary: don't knock it till you try it! Is that clearer?

Agreed completely but I have spent time up front in a 767 across the pond for hat it's worth.

My "been there done" that remark was about ATC issues and high density airspace... as that is where a large part of the challenge lies for you big big jet guys.

Fly safe!

lol...still trying to play the cool guy card eh? ("big big jet guys") You do realize these are all YOUR words, not mine?

Glad you were able to form such firm opinions about the challenges of longhaul from your ride(s) in the jump seat! Let me guess, dad/uncle worked for AC/CDN? But what I was talking about was doing it for a living ie living a position not observing it. Because if you wanna play the "lifestyle" argument, you have to be consistent...the job is a tad more than sitting up front for long flights. It's everything, pay, schedule, benefits, leave, culture...the things that make up lifestyle. You keep almost convincing me of your sincerity about the "lifestyles 'n contentment" angle, until blowing it by sounding a tad defensive...I've never tried to suggest some job or another is inferior by referring to is as "little little jets", even in jest...have I? And why would I? I took something from each of my previous jobs and they have all contributed to the one I have now.

The truth is, there seems to be a vast majority of people out there who seem to need to be opinionated about things they have never done, because it's always easy to take shots from the sideline rather than admit they don't know everything about everything. Think what you want of me, but if I don't know much about something, (which sums up my situation in most areas) I try to keep my mouth shut and listen to find out as much as I can. About the admittedly few things I DO know something about, I get tired of people blabbing on like they're some tired old veteran, so occasionally call bs. Most tired old veterans I know are pretty quiet...

Anyway, this is what I get for letting myself get drawn into this.! Glad you enjoy your job! See ya!

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:46 am

No issues here, I know my dick is small, I just don't compensate by bragging about my airplane

Grammar boy.
Sorry to hear about your size. I know the feeling. Fortunately she tells me it's how you use it, not the size. Ya, right. "Bragging" is something I try not to do. I make no appoligies. Sometimes it's the only way to make a point, but it comes across as bragging? I wonder where the insecurities really lie. Oh well, not my problem. The proudest and happiest moments of my career were spent flying smaller airplanes for smaller companies. Hey, have you considered those enlargement pills?

2low · Post by **2low** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:14 am

Im going to Azrizona's tonight. Anyone wanna meet for a couple beerz? Tony? anyone.....

Schlem · Post by **Schlem** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:54 am

complexintentions wrote:
Anyway, this is what I get for letting myself get drawn into this.! Glad you enjoy your job! See ya!

You seem like a pretty serious guy there CI! I'm the first pilot in my family so I wasn't able to jump with Daddy. I travelled across the pond back in the days when you could visit the flight deck and spent a good portion of cruise hanging out with the crew. I now know some long haul drivers and a lot of the time I hear, "the flying is really boring but I only have to work 9 or 10 days a month" for example. For me the best part of the overseas flying was the ethinic food and communicating with the people... an airport is an airport and a hotel is a hotel once the "wow" of being in different countries wears off.

I'm not slighting your job and if it's what you're happy doing then all the best to you... "diferent strokes for different folks" as you said earlier.

I'm the kind of guy that likes short hops and steam gauges... might be in a minority but that's just me.

Anyway... I was a little jet guy and now I'm a big jet guy... you're a big, big jet guy and or bigger jet guy...

Cheers!