Requiem for Alta Flights

in with it · Post by **in with it** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:15 pm

Butterz

you are right, no one wants to see a company go under, lose jobs.

I cant think of ONE person there who IS happy and not carrying feelings of being screwed over at one point. Major move was swathing over all long term employees with bonds. Wasnt the start, wasnt the end

funny thing, you and I most likely know/ drank beer together...hehee

Water off · Post by **Water off** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:42 pm

AF did under bid the contract and the person who did the quote no longer works for the company. Unfortunately the quote wasn't properly looked at by the owner and they had to honour it. Did it put "NA" out of business? No, they were on there way before AF took over the bag run. It is interesting to note that AF hired a lot of their pilots including one's that had been stiffed on their bonds by Mr. H. One that owed well over 10 G's. Has AF stiffed anyone on their bond? No. Have plenty of people left shortly after they got a fresh initial PPC or renewal when they weren't on bond? Yes. Some right after Sim training. A lot of these people used this training to get there new job. AF is also paying the bonds of people who washed out of the training program. This is not part of the agreement but they are doing it anyway. There are also others who have been forgiven their bond or had it reduced when thier "dream" job came up.
The people who are taking over the bag run pay their people ten to fifteen thousand a year less than the people who flew for AF and AF is on the bottom of the average for the pay scale. Should AF have asked the crews to take a pay cut? Maybe. People complain all the time about people who bastardize this industry. Nobody has flamed anyone working at integra for accepting this type of wage. They are also not hiring any AF crews as they do not have PPC's on the PA31. The only one they have expressed interest in was one that was PPC'd on the same type they were going to use on the YXC run. When AF hired guys from NA for the run, they PPC'd some guys that weren't typed on the Metro. Is the AF management perfect? No. But they try to run a company with there hands tied behind their back from the owners who refuse to give a clear business plan, but are quick to point fingers when things are not going well. For the people who feel they were screwed over, as with just about every company, some are legit beefs and some aren't. Some of these should be posted for debate. I do work for Alta. Am I perfectly happy? No, they do have some weird policies, but I have worked for a lot worse. I do feel that some of my collegues create a lot of there own problems. It is a difficult time right now as we are trying to compete with companies with deeper pockets and more investment the the owners of AF are willing to do. It the money there? I think so to a point. The other problem is regulatory problems from TC. I think that AF's biggest competitor would have the same problems we do if they were under the same scrutiny. I know I sure wouldn't want to be on a Straight 100 with the up gross and a pod with two crew and ten pax and lose a fan coming out of YXD on a summer day. It is just a matter of time all though I sure hope I am wrong. For the people on this forum, you should look at the charts, it is scary without the extra 1200 lbs.
I hope that Alta can change their image but it will take some time and effort from owners, management and crews. Getting out of this bag run and giving it to companies with less overhead, and cheaper equipment is a start, although painful for the crews that don't get to stay with the company.

Tube Driver · Post by **Tube Driver** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:01 pm

Water off, you know toomuch about the internal workings of Alta Flights. You have the distinct smell of management or someone who's breath smells like managements demon seed, if you get my drift. If so is the official press release? If you are who I think you are maybe you should have used this speech on the employees you terminated instesd of giving tthem nothing but denial until the end. When the time comes for management to become unemployed remember the good people you screwed over and good luck getting another job in aviation in this part of the country. For although you may have thought that the pilots that worked for you were nothing more than a necessary evil and a lower form of life, we have memories of how we were treated and no person in any profession should be treated that way.

motherfokker · Post by **motherfokker** » Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:26 am

hoo ya, vendictive bastards we are

in with it · Post by **in with it** » Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:58 am

can some one tell me WHY the employee and pilot group under the direction of JayDubbleya were a content group, and the group under the BeeLam and EmEff Show are miserable???
WTF?!!

oldncold · Post by **oldncold** » Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:33 pm

before alta flights there was north amercian running bags.

but not many companies have the crystal ball and fuel prices
going up 50% in the the last 3 yrs. today oil just hit an all time
record no sign in site. any smart company the patch would be
wise to bid cost +current fuel price daily.

In case anyone cares alta flights is owned by telford and they are a
corporation and business is business. once again pilots fail miserably
at the recogition of this simple fact. the way to survive and thrive in this
enviroment is to conduct yourself as a business.

chiefpilot · Post by **chiefpilot** » Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:58 pm

O.K, BullSh*@ , Bullsh&$ , Bullshi%

If you are happy there, then you must be a low time driver with his/her first job, otherwise, you would be screaming about the Bullsh&*!!!!!!!

in with it · Post by **in with it** » Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:19 am

ahhhhhhhh,

finally someone who understands my pain........

C-FOXY · Post by **C-FOXY** » Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:29 am

greenwich · Post by **greenwich** » Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:32 am

Water off:
Well said! I have to say that there is no company on this site that takes more abuse than Alta! It's nice to hear some clear, fundemental points that are somewhat positive. ie:
1. Alta did totally underbid the BagRun. Some critical mistakes were made in the bidding process by people who no longer work for Alta and they have been paying for it ever since!
2. Alta did put NA out of its misery...but then DID hire most of the NA pilots and paid them more money to fly the same runs! (no training bonds or promisary notes!)
3. Prior to training bonds being implemented at Alta., a huge group of pilots did leave the company. Some with brand new PPC's and some who just got back from Sim-training in the U.S. (the Sim-training and PPC's got these pilots their new jobs).

in with it:
JW was a true pilot's-Chief Pilot. He was all about fair wages and pilot-progression up through the company. He'd start pilots at the bottom and work them up! There are a lot of pilots on this site who owe JW for their careers...well, at least the first couple thousand hours!
When the new lads took over everything changed. It was all about last-minute hiring from outside as opposed to working people up from inside! Time requirements went through the roof, and high-time pilots that were on the verge of big upgrades were told that they no longer qualified because of a lack of multi or pic. Training bonds. Promisary notes. But ultimately it was an attitude thing. The old: "pilots are a dime a dozen"..."you should be greateful that we allow you to fly for us"..."I've got a pile of 100 resumes on my desk"...etc.

Man, what a crazy industry...

G

in with it · Post by **in with it** » Fri Aug 20, 2004 11:25 am

this is crazy. You guys, we all know eachother, we all pilfered donuts before our trips, all cringed under Mizz Wendy's shrillness, all sat in the flt planning room uttering "f$%k, screwed again"

Who bid the bag run? BW?

I completely agree, Jay Dub was the pilot's Chief pilot. If you are reading this, I hope you know the troops believe you are more of a Chief and fair leader than they could ever wish to have.

Shadow!? is that you Shadow?!?!

J31 · Post by **J31** » Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:15 pm

Well JW is now at Carson Air and is looking for a Metro III Captain in Calgary

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=3019[/url]

chief · Post by **chief** » Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:35 pm

[quote="Water off"] I know I sure wouldn't want to be on a Straight 100 with the up gross and a pod with two crew and ten pax and lose a fan coming out of YXD on a summer day. It is just a matter of time all though I sure hope I am wrong. For the people on this forum, you should look at the charts, it is scary without the extra 1200 lbs.
quote]

Well IF you are one of those guys over there flying the B100's, do you really think you are in a better scenerio? Guess you should know the 100 a bit better before you criticize it.That Raisbeck mod is the best mod you can get for the 100's. BTW, I wouldn't wanna be in any airplane that loses an engine on take off in the heat.

tailgunner · Post by **tailgunner** » Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:49 pm

can anyone verify the rumur that there was/is an unsolicited take- over bid of alta by a large Eastern Canada operator with Dash 7's??

Butterz · Post by **Butterz** » Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:50 pm

Shadow, Eh??
Haven't heard that one in a while, I would think you were the lump master till I realized he wouldn't lower himself to use a computer. "Only got grade 2, couldn't go to grade 3, dad was there!", or something along those lines.

Yeah, unfortunately it looks like the days of filling up on donuts and a nice cold commissary brew after work are gone, but good times, good times.
Greenwich and Water Off seem to have the facts as they are, for what that's worth, and it's nice to see things for what they are instead of a bunch of far flung rumurs and extremes. It's sad to see that one guy, BW from what I've heard, could screw things over so bad for a company. I wouldn't say that everything that is wrong there is his fault, but it did seem to go downhill after that.
As for only the low timers being happy that's total BS. Why would someone be happy working somewhere when their new requirements keep you from ever being promoted and time in company is irrelevant. Unless of course your dad keeps buying you new PPCs.

southbound · Post by **southbound** » Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:55 pm

I will neither confirm nor deny this....although i saw some paper work on the *&^%$# desks of one of the big three at AF.................treat us like crap and then sell out from underneath us........Bring it on, could be good.

greenwich · Post by **greenwich** » Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:04 pm

Chief:

If u are one of those guys flying a Straight 100 with the Raisbeck kit and pod you owe it to yourself to go back into the book and run the numbers again. Scary stuff with 10 pax and two crew!!

I know it's "legal" as per TC, but damn!!

(ps. not trying to start a fight!!)

Butterz:

U are 'da man..."dad buying ppc's"...LOL!!!!!!!!

G

chief · Post by **chief** » Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:43 pm

Hey Greenwich. I hear ya on the 100. I didn't say it was a rocketship. Even the 100 without the raisbeck on one engine isn't going to climb on a hot and heavy day. BUT how many planes at our level actually will? The 100's problem is there is not enough wing. But the B100 is in the same boat. Water Off was saying that it was basically ludicrous that they up'ed the gross with the raisbeck. BUT on the other hand Alta flights operates the B100 at basically the same weight. Hot and heavy, those things aren't climbing either. So I wouldn't wanna be on those B100's when that situation comes along. Either or, both planes are going down.

complexintentions · Post by **complexintentions** » Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:48 pm

Bag runs are all gonna be gone in a couple years anyway. Big articles running in the major rags the last couple weeks about the major banks switching to digital cheques.

Faster (like instant), cheaper, more reliable, and more secure. Probably best not to count on bag runs for revenue for too much longer.

Tube Driver · Post by **Tube Driver** » Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:48 pm

Greenwich;
I have three problems with your three points. Here they are short and sweet.

1. Somebody from management/ownership must have given the go ahead to the dispatcher turnerd salesperson who submitted the bid. He was a fool but not the only one.

2. Pay at N.A. from what I hear was actually much better than at A.F., as well the guys got paid up to ten cents per mile for crewchanges on top of thier salary. It was not uncommon for Metro captains to make over $50,000 per year some of it tax free. As well the pay per day or hour woked was much higher as they flew 704 aircraft as 704 aircraft, and thus did not burn out their crews as bad.

3. Training bonds were brought in at A.F. initially because management could not keep employees due to thier poor treatment. In many cases a person who did their training in September was told the following spring that they now owed a training bond or would be fired. Sim training was initially brought in for captains on the metro's to appease the customers and the insurance companies due to a rash of accidents/incidents. (Due too stressed out and overworked pilots?) Later sim training was brought in for f.o.'s along with a $10,000 bond. This was at the same time as the company needed something in the neibourhood of $100,000 cash to get keep their Astra from being siezed at a repair facility. In a span of a couple months they hired approx. 10 f.o.'s for the metro, at $10,000 a bond you do the math. Needless to say the came up with the cash to get the plane back. however the owner very soon after this was so pissed off that they took their aircraft to another operator. Anyhow A.F. hired all these people near the end of crew change season when they knew they would not need them. in fact about two months later the layoffs started. What a great way to treat a person trying to get a start in the industry, use them as cash cows to raise cash to get an aircraft out of hock. they should be ashamed.

chief · Post by **chief** » Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:30 pm

Tube Driver:
I dont doubt some of your statements about AF. The Astra thing is weird though since Precision owns the plane and foots the bills. But ya never know with AF.

Tube Driver · Post by **Tube Driver** » Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:50 pm

I cannot remember the arrangement exactly but A.F. was responsible for this check, or had previously spent the money allocated .

U/S · Post by **U/S** » Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:27 pm

Good on ya Jay Dub. I'm glad things are finally working out for you. I'm a little sad AF is folding, as I imagine you are, however I am glad as hell to be out of there I'd still be there with the old crew flying my sack off if Dumb and Dumber hadn't showed up. You must have a little glimmer of satisfaction picking up a couple of good deals on Metro 3's, maybe you can get your old office back at a good price too.

oldncold · Post by **oldncold** » Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:56 pm

Well the skinny on all of this of course is A F was in trouble back in the late summer of 2002 fuel companies were about to cut them off and of course no gas NO fly.

no I never worked for them but knew some who did. past each other
in fort nelson or yyc. good crews all of them. some one should take
the westjet style program on people mgt and drop it on the desks of most
of these companies then they might get it: which is it is not how much you pay but the way you treat and respect your staff THAT MAKES YOU PROFITABLE!!!!.

TO ALL THOSE who find them selves ei -again- the regal beagle (yyc)has got good cheap wings and beer. not a badplace to network for the next job too. and folks if it aint happening for ya in alberta do what all survivors of this biz have done- keep movin' to stay workin' bang head

greenwich · Post by **greenwich** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 8:28 am

Tubedriver:

My response to your three points...

1. I agree, management/owners had to have given the go-ahead!

2. You heard that pay was better at NA...I heard that pay was worse at NA?!?!? Who knows!

3. Your theory that Alta. used $10,000 training bonds to raise cash-flow sounds insane! BUT, as you said, Alta. owed megabucks all over Western Canada, so what better way to raise money than have a group of pilots throw in $10,000 each!! The only weakness in the theory is that if they did raise $100,000 with the signing of 10 pilots, then they would have had to still pay-back the bonds at about $8,000 per month?!?!?

G

Requiem for Alta Flights

demise of alta flights

alta flights