new instructors and the jitters especially spin training?

[bluenote]

How did you new instructors or even the old ones that are experienced handled the jitters of being a new instructor and doing excercises like spins?

Did anybody take a special spin aerobatic course just to touch up the skills?

thanks

bluenote

[Blue Side Down]

How did you new instructors or even the old ones that are experienced handled the jitters of being a new instructor and doing excercises like spins?

Did anybody take a special spin aerobatic course just to touch up the skills?

thanks

bluenote

I think that this inquiry gets at the root problem of why so many new pilots are uncomfortable with spins...

I you have a chance, take a spin course down south- it'll be worth the money.

[Degrassi]

Dont really see how you can be scared of doing a spin... most trainning aircraft i have flown, have the stability to recover on their own.. my advice, if your scared of spins. DONT INSTRUCT

[mcfly]

spins are fun

i've never heard of anyone crashing a plane when practicing a spin

i'd be more worried about teaching landings

[Icebound]

spins are fun

i've never heard of anyone crashing a plane when practicing a spin

...

Well here is one just last year... which especially female instructors should read:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_ ... 200&akey=1


Although they have not come up with probable cause yet... the implication is that the 230lb male student may have frozen at the controls and overpowered the 100lb female instructor.


...

[beechy]

i've never heard of anyone crashing a plane when practicing a spin

I know 150's had problems with rudders getting stuck and pilots not being able to recover....i have no evidence but its true!

[happily.retired]

Students are generally fairly predictible in spin training. Keep an eye on them. Ask yourself if they react poorly to stress, if they have ever done anything illogical in the past, and whether they every disregard your instruction. If you answer yes to these questions (any of them!) handle the student with care, and not just in spins-all the time. These are the warning signs of the students who'll put you in the most danger. Always be prepared to take control at any time in any flight. Their life (and yours) is more important than their feelings.

Ladies and anyone who is out-weighed by the student should take special care. I'm not a big guy so I liked to keep my pen in my left hand, fist style with the point towards the student. Sounds awfull but if its sitting gently on your thigh it actually looks very relaxed and portrays confidence in your student, unless he freezes in a spin or short final and needs a quick jab in the leg to get them to release the controls. I had to try it once and I should probably admit that the student and I subsequently agreed that he should try a new instructor but the decision saved two lives and an airplane.

BTW I never had a real problem with a student in spins, at worst they released the controls and let the plane recover itself. Cessnas are a life saver for instructors! It was an approach that came closest to causing an impact while I was instructing.

[YACdirect]

i've never heard of anyone crashing a plane when practicing a spin

I know 150's had problems with rudders getting stuck and pilots not being able to recover....i have no evidence but its true!

I've been looking around TSB site but can't find it; there was a report of a 150/152 - can't recall, that required combined effort of student and instructor to un-jam the rudder.

Something about a bolt overrunning the rudder stop and getting jammed if I recall correctly. Can't recall how easy that is to check during a preflight on that aircraft but it would be something I would be interested in checking.

These two were lucky to have recovered.

[YACdirect]

i've never heard of anyone crashing a plane when practicing a spin

I know 150's had problems with rudders getting stuck and pilots not being able to recover....i have no evidence but its true!

I've been looking around TSB site but can't find it; there was a report of a 150/152 - can't recall, that required combined effort of student and instructor to un-jam the rudder.

Something about a bolt overrunning the rudder stop and getting jammed if I recall correctly. Can't recall how easy that is to check during a preflight on that aircraft but it would be something I would be interested in checking.

These two were lucky to have recovered.

[No Brakes]

Actually they didn't recover. They spun right into lake St-Francois near Montreal. The instructor died and the student got out of the airplane and survived. It was C-GZLZ from Laurentide Aviation, the fist airplane I did spins in. It happened a couple years later. Gave me a bit of a chill when I learned about in the newspaper.

[fougapilot]

Bluenote,

Students do pick up the non-verbal communication from them instructor. If you are nervous while conducting spin training, your students will pick it up and will become afraid of spins also. We will have created another generation of pilots that fail to understand this simple manoeuvre which will in turn increase their chances of ending up in one while turning on final with their wife and kids on board.

If you are serious, I think you should invest a few hundred dollars and spin the sh*t out of the school plane until you feel as comfortable in a spin as you do on your couch. Or seriously consider moving out of instructon.

F

[trey kule]

Degrassi wrote

Dont really see how you can be scared of doing a spin... most trainning aircraft i have flown, have the stability to recover on their own

You see, this is a good example of the problem. If you can not understand that some student pilots are, in fact scared of spins, then how do you expect to cater your approach to their training?
Here is a bulletin, Degrassi, from a guy, who years ago, taught spins almost exclusively. A whole bunch of student pilots are, and a large percentage of them become even more afraid bucause folks like you think they shouldnt be. I really hope you are not an instructor.

Secondly, the aim of spins is not to "just let go of everything and it will recover". Something I have heard dozens of instructors tell students.
May be true, in a particular case, but we should be teaching them to handle spin recover that may , in fact, be caused by such things as an out of envelope rearward C og G.
If it ever should happen, during the panic, that wise old 20 something instructor's words will flash back. Just let go and all will be well.
I have not read the Flight Training Manual publiched by TC for many many many years, but it did have a spin recovery technique in it. I found that a. if a student understood and actually memorized that recovery technique, things went a lot better (note: positively or briskly move the control column forward....been 20 some years and I think that deals with your self recovery issue). Surprise , surprise though, few instructors can actually recite the recovery technique by rote either...and they are suppossed to be teaching it.

Now, to deal with the original posters thread.
Learn and understand all the dynamics of stalls and spins.
Understand why you are teaching them
Think of how you are going to approach it with a student.
Trust the student. If you have properly prepared them, and done your job right , spins are a non-event for them....and for you.
As you enter the spin. put one of your hands on each of your knees and keep them there unless there is a problem. Biggest issue most new instructors have is they let their nervousness show by jumping on the controls to quickly.

And as you get experince you will find it only gets easier and better.
I am sure you will do just fine.

[Degrassi]

Trey Kule are you stupid... i said as an instructor you shouldnt be scared of spins.. i never said make sure your students think spins are fun and easy with no danger involved. And did i at all say the recovery technique was to just "let go" no i didnt, i said the plane would recover eventually on its own.. that may take several thousand feet, but it will come out.. I CANT STAND PEOPLE LIKE YOU ON HERE.. why the hell do you turn peoples words around.. then go off on your genious little rant, spouting off on how intelligent you are.. I also would pretty much put money on the fact that 99 percent of instructors in canada know the recover procedure, and can recite it no problem..

As for me, yea i am an instructor, my students have never had an issue with spins.. my original point was, i dont understand how an instructor can be unconfortable with them.

ps... i am so excited to see how you twist my words on this one.. pause not

[trey kule]

Degrassi.

You are quite correct in that you were referring to instructors. And you have really impressed me on the way you deal with misunderstandings.
Do you treat your students the same way when they make a mistake?

As to you claim that a plane will eventually recover, that is just not true.
Some planes will, if trimmed properly , but there are many many more that exist outside the ftu world that will not recover on their own. and I am not twisting your words. Just stating a fact. You claimed, if I understand correctly, that most instructors can recite the recovery technique by heart. Where, pray tell, does it say "just release the controls"? OOpps, you didnt say that did you? What you did say was that the plane would recover eventually on its own? How does that work exactly with the proper recovery technique?

Lastly, your intolerance of a new instructor who admits he is nervous is certainly admirable. You are a person to be admired for your people skills.

[chipmunk]

i said the plane would recover eventually on its own.. that may take several thousand feet, but it will come out..

Not all training aircraft will do this.

To answer the original question; if you're uncomfortable with instructing spins (as many new instructors are) try some of the following:

1) Go up with a senior instructor, or better yet, an aerobatic instructor, and get yourself 100% comfortable with YOU flying them. Then, have the other guy act as the student, and practice "instructing" them. There's no shame in wanting more practice. I was lucky enough to do my Instructor Rating with an aerobatic instructor who realized the importance of this and knew and understood the aircraft and it's sometimes scary spin characteristics, and several spin lessons were in the curriculum.

2) Ensure your student is very comfortable with power-on stalls and the resulting wing drops. Learn how he/she reacts to these situations. Something you should instill in the student right from the beginning is that what you say, goes (i.e. when you say "go around" or "I have control" the student obeys first and asks questions later.) Do a demo of the spin on the flight before the spin instructional flight IF the student is comfortable.

3) For the Spin instructional flight, have the student physically practice the entry, maintaining, and recovery motions before you start up the aircraft. You should make a point to convey that you relaxed and confident. Be sure the student understands when you want them to recover, and make sure your "recover" call is authoritative.

4) For the flight, go up a thousand feet or so higher than necessary for more comfort. Demo the spin. Then, split the exercise up. Have the student do only the recovery, then only the entry, then put it all together.

If you're not completely comfortable with your aircraft in a spin, don't add a student into the mix. There's no shame in wanting more practice, and your supervising instructor should respect and encourage this.

Another note: I was taught that if a student overpowered me and if saying "if you don't let go we are going to die" and jabbing their leg didn't work, to stick your finger in their eye socket.

[Hedley]

stick your finger in their eye socket

That's kind of cruel ... I thought that's why they put fire extinguishers in trainers, so you could bash them in the head?

[chipmunk]

stick your finger in their eye socket

That's kind of cruel ... I thought that's why they put fire extinguishers in trainers, so you could bash them in the head?

My finger can be unleashed faster than the extinguisher.

[beechy]

So maybe i am retarded but.........

If you start going around feeling totally comfortable with spinning an aircraft i think you're a bit nuts. Why is it that an instructor is supposed to make spins out to be a fun and safe excercise?

The whole reason you are teaching spin recovery is because it isn't a safe thing to do...or get yourself into. Spinning is one of a few manouvers where are pretty well giving up control of the aircraft......and i know some will dispute this........but the wing is stalled and the aircraft is doing its own thing. Is it recoverable yes(In some cases no), that is what we are teaching how to recover. So am i affraid to spin? no. But before each one i make sure to go through the procedure in my mind to recover. Do i have a healthy respect for spinning an aircraft yes.....if you're an instructor don't be affraid to let a student know when you are a bit uncomfortable, these is no shame in it. Let them know why, that way they will develope a healthy respect for the same things. You don't have to be IRON WILLED and teach with no fears. There is risk involved, even though the plane has been tested etc....

So what am iI saying, Don't make yourself become comfortable with things that are "unsafe", those who do are usually the ones who get killed doing them. Listen to the little man inside who says.....hey, are you sure you want to do this?......Have a healthy respect for things and you'll be fine......

Ask a guy who climbs Everest if he is scared, he won't be shy to say yeah....

[trey kule]

Chipmonk quote:

My finger can be unleashed faster than the extinguisher

Thats because the fire extinguisher has to be unleashed from under the seat and your finger just from your nose.

Actually, you give some really good advice. You are one of those who should be a career instructor.

BTW, is Yak Driver still working with you?

[chipmunk]

I can also type with one finger in my nose.

Check PMs, Mr. Kule.

[Cat Driver]

I find it interesting reading these threads and am concerned that there are to many people teaching flying who have a fear of teaching some lessons such as spinning.

Spinning an airplane that has normal spin recovery traits is no more dangerous than any other unusual attitude training, hell when we learned to fly students were sent out to practice spins solo as a normal part of their training.

Now back to the fear factor, when an instructor has a fear of teaching any lesson that fear can and will transfer over to the student and once ingrained in the student it is very difficult to ever completely get rid of it.

Teaching flying is a profession that is not measured by the yardstick of having passed the very short training process to regurgitate the lessons learned at the minimum standard to be issued an instructors rating.

Teaching flying also requires the ability to instill confidence in a student along with knowlege and the mechanical movements of the flight controls to make the airplane go where you want it to when you want it to.

[chipmunk]

I find it interesting reading these threads and am concerned that there are to many people teaching flying who have a fear of teaching some lessons such as spinning.

Spinning an airplane that has normal spin recovery traits is no more dangerous than any other unusual attitude training, hell when we learned to fly students were sent out to practice spins solo as a normal part of their training.

Now back to the fear factor, when an instructor has a fear of teaching any lesson that fear can and will transfer over to the student and once ingrained in the student it is very difficult to ever completely get rid of it.

Teaching flying is a profession that is not measured by the yardstick of having passed the very short training process to regurgitate the lessons learned at the minimum standard to be issued an instructors rating.

Teaching flying also requires the ability to instill confidence in a student along with knowlege and the mechanical movements of the flight controls to make the airplane go where you want it to when you want it to.

Best post I've seen in a while.

[Cat Driver]

AAhh.. Chipmunk you were just smitten by my persona and large manly body and good looks last summer in Ottawa.

[chipmunk]

AAhh.. Chipmunk you were just smitten by my persona and large manly body and good looks last summer in Ottawa.

Something like that...

[Cat Driver]

Chipmunk:

You have impressed me as a very talented and bright young lady and I value your input to these discussions, with that in mind allow me to share a thought I have had rolling around in the back of my skull for some time now.

As you know I am in the process of building a Cub that will not only be on floats but will have another set of wings to quickly convert it to a Clipped wing aerobatic toy.

As part of my new consulting endeavour where I plan on offering advanced training to the keeners who wish to start into aviation with skill levels better than the average bear.

I am also tossing around the idea of offering a course for flight instructors who wish to maybe learn some skills and methods of instilling the art of flying into their students using a different approach to what the system turned them loose with.

For many decades I had the oportunity to learn from some of the best in the world and picked up some truly innovative ways of making learning to fly what it really is...easy.

What think thee of that Chipmunk?