Beating a Dead Horse via: Floats (Advice)

[Paciflyer]

I personally learned more up north in the first few years of my flying career than the subsequent years combined. You should get a job selling tickets at some J31 operator or the equivalent and wait for a right seat job. I dont agree with pilots that do this, and avoid the learning experience and character building that comes with travelling to remote area to be an aviator,

AMEN - although a little harsh in context, for your second post you speak volumes..... there IS no better exposure available for a pilot imo, than building your professional foundation with a willingness to work hard in an environment laced with opportunity to grow and learn - if you're willing and capable of absorbing. My best skills were taught to me by a crusty ole' SOB in "social skills", however at the controls of a -2......well, there was no better qualified mentor.

[Adam Oke]

…The AV business is small and people pick up on natural talent so think of your dock job as a farm team. If you score a lot of goals and show natural ability you'll find yourself in the majors quickly.


"Believe none of what you hear..and Half of what you see"..

That’s the best piece of Advice that I’ve heard so far. Thanks

My advice to you if your original plan was to be an instructor is to not go to the "bush", as you refer to it. Why? Because my guess is you can't handle it. Why do you think that you should be able to fast track yourself? If you want to use the bush to fast track to something else, you are in for a rude awakening. If you honestly think that fast tracking to that "perfect" job is your path, grow up!
I personally learned more up north in the first few years of my flying career than the subsequent years combined. You should get a job selling tickets at some J31 operator or the equivalent and wait for a right seat job. I dont agree with pilots that do this, and avoid the learning experience and character building that comes with travelling to remote area to be an aviator, but I wouldnt want to depend on a guy like you up there as a coworker.
Sorry man, someone had to tell ya.

I’m going to have to go and say that you are pretty ignorant when it comes to judging someone’s work ethics by their career goals. It’s pretty stubborn of the majority of negative posters on here to be so quick on the guns to state “You can’t handle it” … “You’re not willing to work hard” … “You’re a disgrace to pilots”. Have it known that I am the kind of guy that you WOULD want as a co-worker to depend on. All in all, sorry man, nobody had to tell me any of my work ethics because no one is in the rightful place to state such. My references, past employers, and military officials that I have worked with on the other hand are in that rightful place to judge. Keep your personal attacks to yourself.

Getting past that…there is some logic to your post and there are portions of it that I agree upon…if you would get past your own “I’m so good my shit don’t stink attitude” maybe people would take what you have to say into a little more consideration. You should try different methods of portraying your points and maybe I would give you a bit more respect. Grow up.

I for one am not trying to avoid dock, or avoid a learning experiance, but merely progress with a company as opposed to getting screwed. I understand the importance of learning things on the ground as opposed to in the air...it's how you save time, money, and lives. Everywhere you hear it over and over again…Don’t work for peanuts…Don’t sell yourself short…. What is the problem with my visualization of a dock job that has in some way shape or form a flying portion to the career. I’ve seen people land that kind of job. I think that it is great that some companies fly their dock hands. Kudo's to all that do. What better could that be for both the employer and the employee?

The idea of instruction was to gain flying experience and shorten the time REQUIRED learning on dock. I thought that would help…clearly to be pointed wrong…I apologize for my lack of knowledge that I asked advice on. You know…what most people would do when they don’t know something…ask… Forgive me for asking.

I have had several PM’s from people encouraging me on finding a dock job with an active flying position. From pilots with several years worth of experience all the way to pilots who hold the position that I’m looking for now. Reason being they do not post is for fear of being flamed by ridiculous posters. Please have some respect and post in this ADVICE thread…this is not a “Hey FLAME ME, I’m new and asking questions!” Negative posters, lay off would yea?

[The Kid]

Adam,

Wow! Getting screwed and your not part of this industry yet. What a whiner!! Listen bud pull your head out of your ass for real hit the dock put your time in and that is what will get you a job. Building your CV is what it's called then you start to apply for a flying position...here's the thing the next employer will know based on a recommend if your worth hiring on a 180. With that said pound sand till then and by the way this was not meant to be rude but you come off like a little BIATCH who I wouldn't trust to fuel the old girl nor pump my floats.

RANT OVER

The Kid

[Adam Oke]

What, so I'm suposed to enter the industry looking to get screwed? Pretty sure my head is out of my ass. It's perfectly reasonable to be looking for a job with progression as opposed to being stuck on a stagnant dock job, that I've heard so much about. Call me a "biatch" or not, I'm not being irrational.

[Pete]

Any job in any business there's always a chance of getting screwed...that's life, and life can be the beatch. I've worked physically demanding jobs all my life...which is one of the reasons I'm not all that worried when I find a dock job (as I'm sure it's just as demanding).

I've found that these types of jobs offer the best payoff if you work hard. Not "willing" to work, WORK HARD! I've had shitty bosses who have disliked me starting a new job (being the newbie...are they going to work out, can they hack it) and then quickly come around when they see how I work...thats what I like about outdoor work, best way to prove the person you are. And even the biggest A-holes I've had for bosses gave me breaks and started to teach me new things (I guess in my alternate career choice) once they saw what I was all about.

Im sure there are some companies who would say "wow hes a hard working dockhand". But I bet there are tonnes that can't turn the blind eye and think "wow hes a hard worker, shows he wants to be here...I think next week Ill get him to ride along on some over load flights etc"

Dont worry dude, a boss is a boss Im willing to bet regardless of the industry. Do your job, do it hard...Im sure you'll see a great pay off.

[Adam Oke]

Thanks pete. I like the distinct line between willing and just out right work hard. Good to know that you were flown as a dock hand.

[Blue Side Down]

Adam,

Wow! Getting screwed and your not part of this industry yet. ...I wouldn't trust to fuel the old girl nor pump my floats.


The Kid

Hot dog, we have a weiner.

Nice way to support your peers man, you should get a pat on the back for your effort.


If you worked hard to get where you are in aviation, good for you- but shitting on the guy who's a few rungs down the ladder isn't helping this industry go anywhere fast.

[adhc2]

Ditto on Blue side downs words most Pilots have had to pay dues and that means asking questions along with a lot of shite tasks. Listen Adam some guys get lucky and move from the dock into an airplane in a short time but they r very much the exception. I have seen guys put in more than 2 years on the dock without gettin a shot. Do ur self a favor go with the instructor plan build up PIC you will be much happier in the end. D,ont let the negative B>S. get under your skin remember empty barrels make the most noise and I sure hear a lotta noise in some of the posts on this site.

Good luck to u

[just curious]

Adam,

If your goal is to fly an otter on floats, compile a list of the companies who operate them. It's a small list.

Drive up, see them, and see what their entry level postions are.

Most will start you on the ramp.

Our company has applicants who have worked the dock, come in from instructing, or flown tankers in the summer. Time and chance plays huge in our organization. If you instruct, and your competitors have had bush experience, the nod will likely to to them.

Yellowknife companies- you start on the dock. Period. Wait time depends on the growth of the diamond industry, hiring of the bigs, and work ethic (both yours and your co-worker's). I've had a dozen co-pilots who went this route. 95% were great.

NWA has a faster move-up rate, and you will have a variety of aircaft types as well.You may or may not enjoy your experience there. Depends on you, and your perceptions of the north.

TW, Osprey Wings, Air West... I have no idea.

Co-op postions do not in my experience, lead to great things.

[Adam Oke]

Thank you everyone for your comments!

I recently landed a flying job at the SOSA gliding club as their full time Tow-Pilot for the season! Pretty excited for that as it will boost me up for the following float season and make me alot more employable.

I start in May and fly untill the snow hits. The new plan being as such.

May-September Fly my ass off on the Citab. and the Pawnee and gain 200hrs PIC tail time (very realistic goal as most get betwen 150-200hrs)

By September I would be sitting happily at 450hrs TT (300PIC [200 of which on tail]). Come September shoot out resumes for a winter wheels job. Keep on flying at SOSA until the snow drops or I get a wheels job.

Then come spring if I got on with a wheels job I'd be laughing for the float season.

Hopfully with all of everyones advice 2008's float season I'll be with a company and very insurable.

[Idriveplane]

Hi adam,

Thats awesome you got that gig flying tailwheel this summer. This experience I think will be invaluable towards honing your hand and feet skills. I do however invision you will still have to work the dock afterwards, unless you get extremely lucky ( ala private insured camp 180, pa18 etc) operators are gonna want at least 100 -250 hrs float some being more flexible than others but, I still think your gonna end up on a dock which is a good thing, you'll learn alot watching guys docking/loading/securing etc.

[Adam Oke]

Certainly, with only the float rating I have no doubts I will be working the dock for a bit. As for possibilities of getting hired on, does my new situation really play that big of a differance ... in other words am I considered "fairly employable" in the eyes of a float op? How much better off will I be?

[shimmydampner]

Not much, if at all. Getting a job on the dock and proving that you have a decent work ethic will go farther towards you getting a float flying job next summer, and if you work hard, and are in the right place at the right time, possibly this summer.

[Paciflyer]

Congrats on the "gig" Adam!

Personally, I feel that ANY opportunity to fly is an opportunity to learn and gain valued experience. Yes, it WILL improve your future hireability, more so depending on what you yourself takeaway from it, and, what you leave behind.

There will be people you'll leave behind that you will lean on for future references.......keep that in mind. Even though it's not a paid position, someone will ultimately speak to your character, and willingness to learn and work hard.

Good luck and be safe

[Adam Oke]

I've got another question ....

Come September/Fall is there much open for getting hired on as a dock hand to help close up shop for the season?

My logic here is University/College guy's and gal's will be heading back to school? Just wondering...

[boozy]

Funny you mention that...thats probably true (university/college students leaving for school)...especially for my case. Ofcourse the problem which you might not comprehend is that no-one on here is going to tell you about these jobs. Generally speaking there is a whole swarm of guys/gals that are thinking this same thing as well and are already planning ahead. They will be up north all summer, they'll be hanging around at the local coffee shop in the morning waiting for some extra work. They might pump gas or work at the beer store all summer, and when the time comes that the local operator needs an extra hand...you damn right they're going to grab the guy/gal they've seen all summer who's been drinking beer with they're pilots at night or throwing the odd bag in the otter on friday morning. So if your not that person, good luck grabbing one of those jobs.

By the way, its seems like you have all the right insticts to get a job up north (like the questions your asking are probably giving your competition good ideas), so just go up there if you really want a job. Its a gamble every time you go...you might end up with sweet shit or you might end with gold.

[Adam Oke]

So I figure I will update everyone on my status …. More so because I’m too damn excited.

At the gliding club I got some really good experience with tail wheel flying and new decision-making skills. Built up around 130+hrs with 1500 take offs and landings and I was really feeling comfortable driving the Pawnee. Money started to develop a downward trend; this being a volunteer gliding club and all, so I tossed out 3 resumes in total.

I got locked on with a float operation in Red Lake for my first job! It’s a dockhand job with hopefully a C180 check out. If this lines me up for next season then I’m pretty well set for a good couple of seasons. It’s a solid operation with a beautiful fleet. With the leatherman in the pocket and the car being loaded I couldn’t be more pleased….oh better yet…the guy I went to college with got on too!

[CLguy]

Adam good luck! I know the operation well and the people very well. Great operation and trust me you will have a blast in Red Lk. as a young pilot. It is great to have goals and time lines but don't focus soley on that or you will be miserable. Enjoy your time, grasp the opportunity to learn and you will look back on these days as the best of times for the rest of your life. If you are going to get a pout lip on everytime an airplane leaves the dock without you because you think you are losing out on the hour flying time that will put you closer to your goals then you would be best to stay at home. Just work hard and let things unfold while having fun!

Also remember Co-op Programs are for high school students that go and work for free to gain some experience but end up with a credit towards there education at the end of it. So even they get something out of it. For some company trying to sell it to a licensed commercial pilot is just hiding behind the fact they are looking for slave labor. Steer clear of this crap!!

Good luck!

[just curious]

I liked my time in Red. My wife is from there.

Good flying good people. Work hard, ask questions enjoy the walleye even if you're just going up to Mcinerney bay to get them.

Have fun, and congrats.

[CLguy]

Just Curious, a guy once told me the only people that come Red Lake are whores and hockey players.

I'm just wondering what position you're wife played!!!!