Myths about firearms

Skipper · Post by **Skipper** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:57 am

Hey everyone,

I was surfing the "tube" and stumbled across this video. It's from the U.S., but it sheds some light on the stigma that often surrounds firearms.
Especially when it comes to us whacky Canadians

For owners, this may be straight forward, but for the uninitiated or "anti's" this will hopefully give you some insight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysf8x477 ... ed&search=

Let the debate begin

NWONT · Post by **NWONT** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:07 am

What an excellent video. This is the sort of nonbias fact presentation that could have saved Canadians over a billion dollars. Allan Rock and the Liberal spin doctors are going to hate it.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:24 am

Just goes to show how some are led by perception rather then fact.

still_bluenoser · Post by **still_bluenoser** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:20 pm

Great video, there is alot of confusion around the issue. Not just on how the gun operates.

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:06 pm

First of all, I'm not against the idea of a firearms registry, just how poorly it was implemented (perhaps I should say criminally because a billion dollars doesn't disappear...it's in someones bank account). Done properly no one should have a problem with registering a firearm since no one has a problem registering a motor vehicle.

This video is totally pointless and diverts attention away from what the real issue is, which is the proliferation of firearms. Not whether they are automatic or semi-automatic. As the man said, automatic weapons are already banned in the US and Canada. The problem down there is that you can buy any semi-automatic weapon after waiting a day from the local sports store or Walmart. There are more gun dealers in the States than there are gas stations (fact). And although guns aren't as easily sold in Canada, the people who wish to use them in criminal activity don't seem to have any problem getting them.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:37 pm

Rockie wrote:no one should have a problem with registering a firearm since no one has a problem registering a motor vehicle.

What does one have to do with the other?

still_bluenoser · Post by **still_bluenoser** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:53 pm

Rockie wrote: First of all, I'm not against the idea of a firearms registry, just how poorly it was implemented (perhaps I should say criminally because a billion dollars doesn't disappear...it's in someones bank account). Done properly no one should have a problem with registering a firearm since no one has a problem registering a motor vehicle.

Do you really think that a registry, even implemented properly would stop gun crime? Where there are legal guns, there will be illegal guns, and those are NOT covered by a registry.

There are more gun dealers in the States than there are gas stations (fact).

I wish to challenge you on your "fact"

And although guns aren't as easily sold in Canada, the people who wish to use them in criminal activity don't seem to have any problem getting them.

No they don't. So there should be more tax dollars spent on policing the CRIMINALS WHO HAVE GUNS. Not persecuting the law abiding men and women who acquired their guns legally.

That will not reduce gun related crime.

niss · Post by **niss** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:00 pm

I would just like to pose a question. What is the big deal with registering your guns (if it was free). I think the comparison of registering cars is apt. Why is it ok for the government to know you have a car but they have no right to know you have a gun. That sounds a little paranoid to me. Please clarify.

NWONT · Post by **NWONT** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:08 pm

I think its time to require a mental exam before people are allowed to vote in this country. Niss, you and Rockie have already failed. " If you register your car, why not your sporting goods" Well why not your lawnmower, weedeater, chain saw and golf clubs. Because this disaster passed the billion dollar mark in 2005 and is still climbing and has accomplished absolutly nothing, thats why, now put on your hockey equipment and climb on that little bus that took you to class. Do you idiots realize that the federal government could have bought fifty, brand new, state of the art ,CL-415 waterbombers with that much money, but chose to buy absolutly nothing except fool the retarded population of southern Ontario and other city dwellers into thinking this farce is going to cure crime in this country. You can also use this scale for MRI machines, better health care, more police officers or anything you can relate to. I've given up trying to get it through to you halfwits that this nothing more than a Liberal scam to shut the urban dwellers up. "If you register your car.........give me a break.

niss · Post by **niss** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:15 pm

Wow, if that is how you react to a simple and straight forward post, I would hate to meet you in real life....maybe you shouldnt have a gun.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:20 pm

niss wrote:Wow, if that is how you react to a simple and straight forward post, I would hate to meet you in real life....maybe you shouldnt have a gun.

Take NWONT's insults out of his post and it becomes quite valid. So the answer to your question is right there.

LostinRotation · Post by **LostinRotation** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:24 pm

No one does a drive by with a registered assault rifle

Registering a gun is one thing...I'm not a criminal and have nothing to fear, therefore I have no problem with the idea....fact is the registry was a debacle and the fact remains....criminals don't use registered weapons.

-=0=LiR=0=-

NWONT · Post by **NWONT** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:33 pm

Quote Niss "if its free" When you become an adult Niss you will soon learn that nothing is free. If your not paying , someone else is picking up your tab. Does a billion++++++ sound like free. I don't know if you pay taxes or not but I'm tired of seeing mine either wasted or stolen and divided up by Liberal friendly advertising agencies, etc. Fighting crime by attacking law abiding citizens just isn't going to work. After 110000+ hits on "Kateys firearm facts" I thought maybe someone would pull his head out of his ass, but its hopeless. Bruce Montague is making a stand against this insanity, this week in Kenora. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:03 pm

I just don't understand the vitriolic crap spewing from you supposedly reasonable people who don't want to register guns. Why such a violent reaction to simply registering your weapons. If you stop to think for a minute you would realize that wasting a billion dollars on a gun registry has absolutely nothing to do with weapons, and everything to do with government waste and criminal incompetence. Nothing to do with weapons at all, and if it wasn't weapons it would be something else, anything else but MRI's and schools.

People who exhibit such violent opposition to a simple thing like registering weapons shouldn't have them in the first place, and I for one definitely would want to know if you had one if I were a police officer called to your house. You have an anger management problem. Get a grip people. It's a simple registry just like your car. Comparing it to registering your golf clubs or equally stupid things is moronic.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:31 pm

Another valid question, why does anyone need a semi-automatic rifle?

If you're hunting, and think you need to be able to rip off you're whole mag in as short a time as possible, I would suggest you're a lousy shot. What's wrong with bolt action? My great uncle went hunting for nearly 50 years. In that time he shot less than 10 deer. He always said that if he couldn't be garunteed of a kill in a single shot, he wouldn't pull the trigger.

While I understand that there are stong feelings on the subject, I don't understand the paranoia that is often dislpayed in the debate. Personally, I think the money spent on the registry would be better used on a thousand different projects. But I am not deluded enough to think that the Canadian Government is going to show up at everyone's door and take their gun as a prelude to installing a police state. That's a little far-fetched for reasonable people to conclude. I know that there is historical presidence of this type of thing happening, however, knowing the histories (please don't bother bringing up Nazi Germany, it only demonstrates a lack of knowledge) I feel quite secure with the current situation.

After 110000+ hits, I think alot of the viewers came to the same conclusion that I did. Katey has been prompted, indoctrinated, and is not presenting an unbiased evaluation of the facts. Her approach is condescending and insulting. Katey's "facts" have truly earned the quotation marks which surround them. Many posters have ripped into the various Michael Moore documentries, Katey uses the exact same tactics. Logos is lacking, pathos is rampant.

The video in this thread is similar. While it does demonstrate the difference between an automatic and semi-auto weapon, it stops short of an honest presentation. Semi-automatic weapons are fully capable of delivering a massive amount of fire-power. The US Army limited thier service rifles to semi-automatic due to lessons learned in Vietnam. (not sure if that's still true today, Nark, could you tell us?) By stating that hunting rifles are semi-automatic, the filmmakers imply that that is true of all rifles. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure semi-automatic weapons are called semi-automatic because, while they still require the trigger to be pulled for every round fired, the old casing is ejected and a new round loaded without operator intervention. That is not true of bolt, lever, or pump action weapons. See how it's a bit slanted and leaves out information which may detract from thier message? They imply that all rifles are semi-automatic. (sure people who know about weapons would say that's rediculous, but the clip is aimed at the un-intiated)

I don't like it when people insult my intellegence. If your argument is valid, then you should not have to twist and distort the truth, or leave out facts for me to agree with your assesment. When people present these kinds of arguments, it becomes very difficult for me to respect them or what they say. Even if they're right.

The gun registry is a waste of money. We can all agree on that.

NWONT · Post by **NWONT** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:34 pm

You started talking sense at first , Rockie, then went astray again. How can you relate firearms to automobiles, which is a form of transportation, but not to a golf club which is an instrument of blunt force trauma.
Would it not make sense for a police officer to assume that every building he enters has a preditor with a weapon instead of relying on an inaccurate registry? We are in the habit of saying "billion" like its chump change. Think of the crime fighting equipment that this could by. Our soldiers went to Afghan with some clapped out old Jeeps that I wouldn't take grouse hunting. Why, you ask. Because the Liberals blew a billion+++ registering hunting rifles that were never a threat to anyone. They said there was no money for better equipment for people who lay their lives down on the battlefield. "If we save one life with the registry its worth it" yodels the Liberals. Well we could have saved thousands of lives if those tax dollars would have been spent sensibly. I have stayed off this subject for a couple of weeks but that comment about cars and firearms was just too much. Its all been said on ' katey's Firearms Facts' Take the time to read it if you have an hour or so and are honestly concerned.

niss · Post by **niss** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:36 pm

NWONT wrote:Quote Niss "if its free" When you become an adult Niss you will soon learn that nothing is free. If your not paying , someone else is picking up your tab. Does a billion++++++ sound like free. I don't know if you pay taxes or not but I'm tired of seeing mine either wasted or stolen and divided up by Liberal friendly advertising agencies, etc. Fighting crime by attacking law abiding citizens just isn't going to work. After 110000+ hits on "Kateys firearm facts" I thought maybe someone would pull his head out of his ass, but its hopeless. Bruce Montague is making a stand against this insanity, this week in Kenora. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Even at the tender age of 21 I know that the government is going to piss away money on things that I dont agree with. If you think that there was no registry that the government would have spent that 2 billion wisely, you are a fucking fool. I pay my taxes just like anyone else, and I dont always agree with how its spent but that is life in this type of society bub. Each riding selects its MPs, which ever party has the most seats in Parliment wins. Sometimes we get fucked over because our MP jumps ship to another party, and sometimes we get fucked over because a bunch of rightwing homophobes get put at the reigns, but thats life. We can either accept our situation and make the best of it or we can continue to resist the registry so that the next time the Liberals are elected you can march down to ottawa and pick off a few from the peace tower without anyone knowing you even owned a rifle. Because you are the self proclaimed defender of northern freedom.

Do me a favour, just because you are proud of the fact that your areas population density is as low as your IQ, dont think you can come on here and sling shit like when I grow up, etc. Because you know what, age isnt exactly an indicator of intelligence, especially since where I grew up the schools went all the way to Grade 12. Do you have your socks on? You may need to take one of 'em off to count that high.

*The above was not meant to insault all northeners. I love the north and people from all over Canada. I just cant stand rednecks.

NWONT · Post by **NWONT** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:25 pm

Well there's a classic attitude. " if the Liberals didn't waste the 2 billion on the registry they would have thrown it away on something as equally stupid". Then you wonder why I lose my cool trying to reason with an appathetic wimp like you and the rest of your ilk. The people of the north stand up for themselves, even though we are outnumbered. Just like we're doing right now in kenora. Just because some crooked, slimy political group gets into power is no reason to lie down and take it. If you want to see a "fucking fool" take a look in the mirror. When I hear someone bragging about his IQ and then refer to the registry as free then you are a child and have a long way to go to become an adult. Please don't tell me about your grade twelve certificate. My skills and qualifications are at a level you will never come close to.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:26 pm

this board gets better every day

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:20 pm

This might settle the argument...

Skipper · Post by **Skipper** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:30 am

Don't be haters guys!

Niss, NWONT and gang, this was ment to be a friendly debate. It's interesting that this is such a hot button topic

I think we'll all agree that the registry is a gigantic waste of money (at least for long guns). I own a couple of guns and had to jump through a lot of hoops to get them. I don't mind that at all, and will happily do whatever is required, as long as I get to keep them.

The problem is, more and more people want things like semi-autos and handguns banned because they see shootings on the news. They then assume that banning them would automatically solve the problem. This is no myth. The Liberal party has already drafted resolutions to outright ban these firearms.

I know you've heard it a million times, but removing guns of any sort from the hands of legal owners will do nothing to curb crime, because the criminals will still have them.

Gun owners have become a political pawn and we're upset. We're not angry at the registry. We just can't help but notice that if there is no good to be gained from banning legal firearms, then it must be a vote buying tactic, and there sure are a lot of voters in southern Ontario...

It's just frustrating!

I'm all for gay marriage, but I also own guns, what the hell am I supposed to do

CID · Post by **CID** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:13 am

Lots of interesting points here if you can wade through the rabid gun-nut rants.

First of all, I'd like to address the statement;

Do you really think that a registry, even implemented properly would stop gun crime?

This is the classic "all or nothing" argument that is often used (successfully) by the pro-gun group. Nobody, including the proponents of gun registry is dumb enough to think it will stop gun crime. Does that mean that we should only seek methods of insuring the complete end of gun crime? Quite ridiculous.

The gun registry is foremost a law enforcement tool for the police. It also provides an extra level of checks and balances for people who want to acquire guns. Police aren't dumb enough to believe criminals will always possess legal guns but consider the fact that in the US, many of the gun related violent crimes involve people who know each other and may are shot with their own gun. And also consider for a second that the vast majority of guns start out as legally purchased items.

Tools? Like lawn mowers? Another often used comparison. I don’t know of anyone who packs a lawn mower to knock off the Seven Eleven. Guns, are portable “weapons”. They are not “tools” unless you consider any other tool in your toolbox a “weapon”. I guess a gun CAN be considered a tool of a trade if you rob banks for a living!

The comparison to cars is quite valid. Both guns and cars are items whose operation should be regulated for reason so obvious it escapes me how anyone can think otherwise.

And how about that whole “Liberal waste” thing? Hey, I don’t mind a little government bashing, but we often ignore the fact that the huge over expenditures were in part caused by the huge opposition from the gun lobby and the official opposition. Doesn’t anyone wonder why the opposition waited so long to “Harp” about the registry expenditures? They didn’t know? Riiiiight.

Furthermore, before we absolve the current government of similar fiscal irresponsibility, we should shift our gaze momentarily to the money being spent to develop the national “no-phone” list. This is poised to become the next overspending boondoggle. Right up there with how the government began the destruction of the Canadian airline industry yesterday.

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:28 am

A lot of people get outraged about the gun registry because of the cost of it, but somehow that morphs into a redneck style "you'll pry my gun out of my cold lifeless fingers" kind of anti-government rage. I'm outraged about the cost too but can recognize that criminal incompetence and mismanagement on the part of the government is a completely different issue than registering weapons.

I'll give the more vehement anti-gun register folks here the benefit of the doubt and assume they don't rage at the girl behind the counter when they register their car every year. Or their boat. Or their plane. Or their ATV. Or their motorbike. Or their land. Or their dog. Or when they register to vote. Or when they get a SIN number. Or a medical card. Or unemployment benefits. Or a Canada pension. Or an Aeroplan card. Or when they sign their kids up for school or little league.

So what's the deal with guns? Why get so bent and twisted over registering a lethal weapon?

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:53 am

CID wrote:
Tools? Like lawn mowers? Another often used comparison. I don’t know of anyone who packs a lawn mower to knock off the Seven Eleven. Guns, are portable “weapons”. They are not “tools” unless you consider any other tool in your toolbox a “weapon”. I guess a gun CAN be considered a tool of a trade if you rob banks for a living!

Ok substitute lawnmower for kitchen knife, hammers, or baseball bat. All of these are frequently used to kill people. What people don't realize and what my biggest problem with the gun registry is it suspends the constitutional rights of gun owners just because they want to own guns. Why don't we suspend the rights of car owners because they want to own cars?

Hey CID who do you know that knocks of seven eleven's? You hang with the wrong crowd man.

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:15 am

Dust Devil wrote:
CID wrote:
Tools? Like lawn mowers? Another often used comparison. I don’t know of anyone who packs a lawn mower to knock off the Seven Eleven. Guns, are portable “weapons”. They are not “tools” unless you consider any other tool in your toolbox a “weapon”. I guess a gun CAN be considered a tool of a trade if you rob banks for a living!
Ok substitute lawnmower for kitchen knife, hammers, or baseball bat. All of these are frequently used to kill people. What people don't realize and what my biggest problem with the gun registry is it suspends the constitutional rights of gun owners just because they want to own guns. Why don't we suspend the rights of car owners because they want to own cars?

Hey CID who do you know that knocks of seven eleven's? You hang with the wrong crowd man.

Any item can be used as a weapon. You can cut someones throat with a credit card if you want. But credit cards, kitchen knives, hammers and baseball bats were not designed to be used as weapons and are not commonly used as weapons. You cannot compare them with guns and doing so is disengeous at best. It is a rediculous and argument designed to distract people from the real issue.

Since registering your car doesn't in any way violate your constitutional right to own a car, perhaps you can explain how registering a weapon suspends the constitutional rights of a gun owner?