Logging time under IFR?

shortbus · Post by **shortbus** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:56 pm

Need some clarification, When 2 pilots have a IFR rating can both of them log time when flying together, one as PIC and the other as DUAL? or is this just a rumor? Heard that pilot not flying can one can be a safety pilot and log the time as well?

fougapilot · Post by **fougapilot** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:00 pm

A safety pilot is nothing more then a passenger with a pilot license. If he is a passenger, then he can't log.

If you already have an IFR, it kinda of hard to receive dual instruction towards an IFR, unless you are undergoing training for a PCC / PPC under a commercial operator certificate or receiving dual training required by an insurance company.

The road to a fat logbook is long and painful. There is only one solution, put your time in and you will have the time.

Sorry,

F

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:10 pm

My understanding is there are only 3 times that more than one person can be logging time…

1) If one is an instructor and it is a training flight
2) If it is a multi crew AC and multi crew is in the OC
3) If it is a checkout on that type (of which I believe only something like 5 hrs can be logged)

is that right? anyone care to elaborate?

Krashman · Post by **Krashman** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:55 pm

yeah that sounds about right....

recurrent training will count too

Spokes · Post by **Spokes** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:41 pm

Quick Check of AIM LRA:

3.7 Crediting of Time
3.7.1 Operation of Dual Control Aircraft

(a) The pilot-in-command of a flight or any portion of a flight in a dual control aircraft shall be designated prior to takeoff.

(b) There shall be a satisfactory method of intercommunication between pilots in all aircraft under dual control.

(c) Flight time for pilots may be credited either as dual, pilot-in-command (solo) or co-pilot.

(d) Only the pilot designated as pilot-in-command may be credited with pilot-in-command (solo) flight time.

3.7.2 In-flight Instruction (Dual): Non-Licensed Pilots

(a) Holders of pilot licences may give initial (ab initio) flight instruction, provided they are in possession of a valid instructor rating.

(b) When receiving in-flight instruction from an authorized flying instructor, a student pilot may be credited with dual flight time only.

(c) An instructor may be credited with pilot-in-command flight time when giving in-flight instruction to a student pilot.

3.7.3 In-flight Instruction (Dual): Licensed Pilots

(a) The holder of a valid commercial or airline transport pilot licence may give in-flight instruction for familiarization, refresher and instrument flight training, provided the pilot receiving the instruction holds a valid pilot licence endorsed for the type or class of aircraft in the same category as the aircraft used, and the person providing the instrument flight training meets the requirements specified in CAR 425.21(7). This authority does not permit category conversion training, e.g. aeroplane to helicopter, gyroplane to aeroplane, etc.

(b) The flight time acquired under (a) may be credited to the pilot-in-command as pilot-in-command time, and as dual flight time to the pilot receiving the training.

(c) Not more than 3 hr of familiarization flight time acquired for any type or class of aircraft may be credited towards the flight time requirements for a higher type of licence.

3.7.4 Instrument Flying Practice

(a) When licensed pilots are engaged in instrument flying practice with an appropriately qualified pilot, only the designated pilot-in-command may be credited with pilot-in-command flight time.

(b) The pilot undertaking instrument practice with an appropriately qualified pilot, if not the designated pilot-in-command, may be credited with dual flight time.

(c) The safety pilot, if not the designated pilot-in-command, may be credited with co-pilot flight time if the certificate of airworthiness requires a co-pilot on the type of aircraft being used.

3.7.5 Co-Pilot: Non-Training

The holder of a valid pilot licence may be credited with co-pilot flight time acquired during flights on which they are the designated co-pilot of an aircraft, provided such aircraft is

(a) of a category, class and type endorsed upon their licence;

(b) required, by the certificate of airworthiness or an approved company operations manual, to be operated with a co-pilot; and

(c) fitted with dual controls and dual flight instrumentation.

3.7.6 Maintaining a Personal Log

In accordance with CAR 401.08, every applicant for, and holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log.

3.7.7 Crediting of Actual Instrument Flight Time

During actual instrument flight, both pilots (the pilot-in-command and co-pilot or pilot under training) may be credited with actual instrument flight time.

So, you can reasonably put dual in your logbook, It just cant count toards a higher licence (except for 3 hours I suppose).

shortbus · Post by **shortbus** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:19 am

"(b) The pilot undertaking instrument practice with an appropriately qualified pilot, if not the designated pilot-in-command, may be credited with dual flight time."

So pretty much two guys can fly in a C172, file IFR and both log the time, one as PIC and the other as DUAL as long as both are "qualified"

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:54 am

What is wrong with this picture? I cant believe how many of you actually think that if you can find a way to log the time, that is all that matters.

Your logbook is a record of your experience. What this sounds to me like is we will do one flight and both of us will log it.

Maybe you can find a way through the CARS to do this, but maybe you should also be asking yourself just how honest is this experience I an taking credit for. Was there real dual training being done? Or did one guy just "handle the radios" and then call it dual, or co-pilot or whatever.

Logging experience you dont really have, even if legal, leads down a slippery slope, someone might just take your logbook at face value and you end up in a position you should not be in.

Please think about it. If it really is dual than OK. But dont play games with the regulations.

Spokes · Post by **Spokes** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:37 pm

Sounds to me like Famil, refresher and instrument training are valid forms of dual flight.

Lets say a guy as a Gr1 IFR, but does not get much chance to exercise it. So he rides along with his commercial Pilot buddy in a senneca on an IFR flight "handling the radios" as you put it. Is this not valuable dual training?

Substitute the above situation with a float plane. Again the guy sees and learns a little about reading wind and water conditions. Is this not valuable dual training?

Two people in a 172 as mentioned above? Why not put one of them under the hood? Is this not valuable dual flight training?

Young kids with little money, and few hours need a break every now and then. Every bit of experience is a help to them. Why is it that so many on this forum are so against any kind of training?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:37 pm

" Lets say a guy as a Gr1 IFR, but does not get much chance to exercise it. So he rides along with his commercial Pilot buddy in a senneca on an IFR flight "handling the radios" as you put it. Is this not valuable dual training? "

Of course, in fact it can be better than a lot of IFR flight training lessons.

" Substitute the above situation with a float plane. Again the guy sees and learns a little about reading wind and water conditions. Is this not valuable dual training? "

Once again, of course, it can be better than initial float plane training.

Two people in a 172 as mentioned above? Why not put one of them under the hood? Is this not valuable dual flight training?

I do not belive in the use of hoods as they are unorthodox and not at all like flying in cloud or complete darkness outside. So I'm a little sceptical about that example.

Young kids with little money, and few hours need a break every now and then. Every bit of experience is a help to them. Why is it that so many on this forum are so against any kind of training?

I have no idea but I agree that this experience is valuable.