Combined list.....?

. . · Post by **. .** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 3:23 pm

Don't get us all started on the ramp crews.

I was working today, the ground crew showed up late (as per SOP), they then proceeded to tell a lady that she couldn't leave her bag by the skycheck cart, but to lift it onto the cart. The best part of it all was the one reporbate was wearing a hat that said "YYZ, flagship in customer service". I can only imagine that irony was lost on him as the lady lifted her bag onto the cart for him.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:23 pm

They don't all make that kind of money but they do make alot. It takes some overtime to make the big dough. Change is needed across the board at AC. Again.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:21 pm

No offense to any ramp workers, but any ramp worker making more than the FO on the plan is total BS...Not saying your overpaid (except in the 100K case), just saying were underpaid.

pilotbzh · Post by **pilotbzh** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:54 am

Jazz should open it's ground services at least to the jazz flight, we have so mutch better service from jazz contract services.....with BDL BWI YGK YAM YXU YYB YSB YZR YQG and all others........

please can we get away from the yyz ramp.....

PeteThePilot · Post by **PeteThePilot** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:37 am

Here is a little something I found in my inbox:

Letter from a Jazz F/O accepted at AC:

Good day Gentlemen,

My name is ................. and I am a First Officer on the RJ in Toronto.
My question is a simple one. Will a final deal on Global Solution honor or
negate offers of employment with Air Canada for those of us frozen at Jazz?

I commend you're efforts to solve this long standing problem between our
groups. However, that being said, it would be difficult for a growing group
of Jazz pilots who are frozen to support a deal that did not honor our
offers of employment.

Good luck in you're negotiations.

Response from ALPA guy:

We have just recently drafted a letter to both Jazz and AC management
requesting a meeting regarding the allocation of seniority numbers as we
move forward in GS talks. The issue of pilots frozen at Jazz will be part of
that discussion, as of yet nothing has transpired so it would be too early
to provide a definitive answer to your question.

Hopefully if any agreement is reached pilots from both Jazz and AC will look
upon the benefits of the deal as it relates to aviation in general and our
attempts to fix the problem, and not exclusively as to how it impacts them
as an individual. The only definite statement about any deal I can make is
that with all certainty it will not make all pilots happy.

Let the games begin.

JZA · Post by **JZA** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:31 am

Keep in mind that for a Ramp Rat to make a $100,000 a year they have to work an average of 50 Hours a week througout the year. (10 of those hours a week would be overtime) ..... not many ever get close to this.

..... it's quite easy for us to bitch and complain about the (lack) of service we get from AC Ramp (I do it all the time as well)....but keep in mind that for the most part it's not the guys/gals fault....there is a complete lack of support from the company in terms of providing the manpower, tools, and training neccessary to do the job.

uncleron · Post by **uncleron** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:24 am

Pete,

These are some of the points I have heard:

As far as LOU 18 and G/S I would think that AC mgmt. would still want to honour the agreement as they still need to hire more qualified pilots.
I would also think that ACPA would not have a problem with the reserved numbers as they were the one's that negotiated the LOU in the first place.

Which leaves ALPA and Jazz mgmt.

I would have to think that it is in Jazz's management best interest to not honour LOU 18 and they would not be in favour of doing anything to look after the guys with reserved numbers as they are so short of pilots and don't want to loose more.
If ALPA took it upon themselves to not honour LOU 18 they could be opening themselves up to legal action if the agreement is at the expense of part of their membership.

2low · Post by **2low** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:17 am

Can't we all just get along?

arewethereyet · Post by **arewethereyet** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:50 pm

if you dont have anything good to say... well.. whatever...

like i said before tony.... jazz will do your flying for you.. duefess!!!!

LANDGREEN · Post by **LANDGREEN** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:58 pm

You guys crack me up!!!

PeteThePilot · Post by **PeteThePilot** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:11 pm

Well LOU's aside, the confusion to the pool of frozen pilots is whether we will get hosed if the lists get merged before we have a ground school date. Assuming the Jazz lists gets tagged on the bottom of the combined list, and if we are not officially mainline employees yet, we would move from the bottom of the mainline list (3200 or so) to the bottom of the combined list (4400 or so). That is a difference of 1200 numbers! And who are they rewarding? The pilots that wanted to stay at Jazz or didn't pass the mainline interview process.

BLZD1 · Post by **BLZD1** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:27 pm

AC has a published senority list that includes the frozen jazz guys on it. So if you have a number with ac now I would think it should stay on that list. This is ACPA published senority list.

PeteThePilot · Post by **PeteThePilot** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:50 pm

Well unfortunately some don't have a number yet and the term "i would think" doesn't bestow loads of confidence on the whole process.

pilotbzh · Post by **pilotbzh** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:58 pm

I'm just glad I finally got a gs date, waited 5 month for it.... screw the list, just make sure it's attractive for Jazz pilot to transition to mainline, with holidays, pension, travel privilege, salary. they seniority at mainline should start the day they are accepted by mainline, frozen or not, not 5 month lather, they could also keep they seniority@ Jazz for at least 5 years in the event of a downturn...
the goal was to attract guys from Jazz that have been there for 10 to 15 years, so make it attractive for them...

Martin Tamme · Post by **Martin Tamme** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:58 pm

PeteThePilot wrote:Well unfortunately some don't have a number yet and the term "i would think" doesn't bestow loads of confidence on the whole process.

I will confirm that if you are frozen and have an ACPA/AC seniority number, you will be grandfathered under LOU 18.

PeteThePilot · Post by **PeteThePilot** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:43 pm

Well Martin that is all well and good, but tell me something, do companies and/or unions ever change their minds about these things? Absolutely. And if part of this GS process is that Jazz doesn't want to release the frozen pilots at all because it is more beneficial to the company and both ACPA and ALPA agree - then bingo, policy change. No guarantees.

pauliewalnuts · Post by **pauliewalnuts** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:27 pm

Again, what about the question regarding the Jazz pilots who have been offered a job with Air Canada and have been told to anticipate a virtual course date sometime in the spring?
Martin, from the jazz pilots who have been hired by AC since the Jazz August 2005 groundschool I think very few of them have actually been given dates yet with AC

thrust set · Post by **thrust set** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:04 pm

So what happens when management and the union accepts the idea of a combined list and for all intense purposes the list is constructed in the spring. Now we have a group of pilots sitting near the bottom of the Jazz list but ahead of the entire Jazz group because they took the fortitude to just apply. What about the dedicated members on the Jazz union the have supported this idea and have worked for years to see this completed, do they pay with a loss of numbers.

What happens with pay, pension, and vacation ? Do the pilots that are frozen have all these things "grandfathered" and reap the rewards while the senior Jazz members are left with the bare basics.

My suggestion is this, have a transition date and those pilots at Jazz after that date will fall where they are on the entire list. This will only affect about 50 pilots out of the total 4400 plus combined group.

Remember the mess we felt with the CRA group.

Martin Tamme · Post by **Martin Tamme** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:10 pm

PeteThePilot wrote:Well Martin that is all well and good, but tell me something, do companies and/or unions ever change their minds about these things? Absolutely. And if part of this GS process is that Jazz doesn't want to release the frozen pilots at all because it is more beneficial to the company and both ACPA and ALPA agree - then bingo, policy change. No guarantees.

Whether or not Jazz releases these pilots, has nothing to do with their ACPA/AC seniority number. If you already have a seniority number guaranteed under LOU 18, then there is nothing ACPA can do to change it. We can change the rules going forward, but not retroactively.

Besides, there is no appetite to screw anyone. The rules were very transparent when you applied and when you were hired. If it weren’t for LOU 18, you’d already be on the property by now.

bobcaygeon · Post by **bobcaygeon** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:12 pm

thrust set wrote:So what happens when management and the union accepts the idea of a combined list and for all intense purposes the list is constructed in the spring. Now we have a group of pilots sitting near the bottom of the Jazz list but ahead of the entire Jazz group because they took the fortitude to just apply. What about the dedicated members on the Jazz union the have supported this idea and have worked for years to see this completed, do they pay with a loss of numbers.

What happens with pay, pension, and vacation ? Do the pilots that are frozen have all these things "grandfathered" and reap the rewards while the senior Jazz members are left with the bare basics.

My suggestion is this, have a transition date and those pilots at Jazz after that date will fall where they are on the entire list. This will only affect about 50 pilots out of the total 4400 plus combined group.

Remember the mess we felt with the CRA group.

Thrust set
Who at Jazz or its former companies have not had the oppourtunity to apply at AC??? NONE
Many have had many oppourtunities to apply in the 80's, 90's and again in 2005. Hell, they had the oppurtunity to apply at CP, PWA, Canadian, Wardair, Transair, EPA, NWTair, etc, etc which would have led them to a number at AC. Some did not because they placed there hopes on other ways of getting a number (via the back door)

PS In the 1990's, 50% of AC newhires came from it's regionals and most CRA pilot's had the oppurtunity to flow throught to Canadian.

thrust set · Post by **thrust set** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:40 pm

"PS In the 1990's, 50% of AC newhires came from it's regionals and most CRA pilot's had the oppurtunity to flow throught to Canadian"

Fully understand the past with all the pitfalls along the way. For the record, the CRA group only flowed about 40% of their pilots over and I believe none were any F/O's and if they were they could have held Captain seats by then.

I'm not advocating screwing anybody here just trying to find a fair and reasonable way to make this work for everyone involved. Remember what the end goal is. It's not a race to get here as fast as one can. Maybe in the next little while we should try and get all those frozen pilots over here as quickly as possible while we work towards the end result of a common list. Also in the near future we don't give out any reserved numbers till we explore the ACPA/ALPA relationship and come to a determination if this will work . If a Jazz pilot is given the thumbs up let them come over.

PeteThePilot · Post by **PeteThePilot** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:04 am

thrust set wrote:So what happens when management and the union accepts the idea of a combined list and for all intense purposes the list is constructed in the spring. Now we have a group of pilots sitting near the bottom of the Jazz list but ahead of the entire Jazz group because they took the fortitude to just apply. What about the dedicated members on the Jazz union the have supported this idea and have worked for years to see this completed, do they pay with a loss of numbers.

What happens with pay, pension, and vacation ? Do the pilots that are frozen have all these things "grandfathered" and reap the rewards while the senior Jazz members are left with the bare basics.

Yes absolutely. Some applied some did not. Some were accepted some were not. If you wanted to "reap the benefits" as you say - you should have pursued mainline.

Martin, the problem remains for those who DO NOT have an ACPA number yet (see previous post). And don't kid yourself, just because some have ACPA numbers as you say, doesn't make them invisible. I say again, if as part of GS ACPA and ALPA agree on dissolving the frozen list for whatever reason, it will be done. And it will be under the guise of "what is right for the majority".

skidoo · Post by **skidoo** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:29 am

So many questions on the GS, so many hidden agendas. One big question that pops to mind Medicals all recent new hires went through a rigid medical to AC standards. Is the requirement to do a medical still a prerequisite to transition from Jazz to AC if so so many would have fought this GS battle for no reason as they will still be held at Jazz should anything pop up on a medical. One of many, many questions.

Pete check your pms plse

Inverted2 · Post by **Inverted2** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:58 am

I think if you can hold a Cat 1 Medical to fly at Jazz and you dont meet AC standards you would likely have a case against them on discrimination grounds......

thrust set · Post by **thrust set** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:44 am

"If you wanted to "reap the benefits" as you say - you should have pursued mainline."

Actually I made the move years ago, lived through Michnick and Keller and want to enjoy the next phase of my career. I don't want to come off "preaching" but sometimes you have to look outside the box before one can really see what is fair and what is not. If this is not handled correctly it will lead to a headache in the future.

Remember if this does go ahead for the betterment of our profession as Air Canada pilots we will have a combined pilot group of 4450 strong. But we will also have about 4% of the Jazz list near the bottom third be placed ahead of all their co-workers. Then everyone smiles, shakes their hands..... life is great correct ?

Well unfortunately as some here at Air Canada found out during the merger things don't always play out the way they want them.

What about this have a third party make a recommendation?

Good luck to all.