Myths about firearms

[Skipper]

Good points you brought up 200hr wonder, and Andy Hamilton.

Alcohol directly or indirectly kills way more people in this country than guns do, so why are guns the threat?

Simple math. We don't need alcohol, in fact, it has very few benifits and several drawbacks, but we don't want to part with it. To prohibit the sale of it would be political suicide. There would be a tremendous loss of tax revenue as well. Same with Tobacco which kills thousands of Canadians a year.

I looked at Stats Canada and this is what I found

74% of Canadians Drink
25% of adult Canadians Smoke
Less than 10% own firearms

If you're a politician looking to get elected, you can look at those percentages as "votes lost". If you wanted to ban alcohol, 74% of Canadians would not be putting a check mark next to your name, and so on

Gun owners are paranoid for a reason. When you look at the numbers, we're the ones at the back of the heard, and everybody wants a scapegoat

It sucks...

[NWONT]

HT, when you see a younger person punching a 101 year old helpless woman on her way to church and stealing her few dollars there is no time to determine if he has a weapon under his coat or is on drugs. By his acts he has given up any rights as a man and should be dealt with as an animal. I personally know people that have been gutted be trying to stop this sort of thing by applying only an adequate amount of force. The focus is now on the victim not the predator. I say let some air out of the son-of-a-bitch.

[Rockie]

I have a friend who is very much into firearms. He took all the firearm safety courses, belongs to a gun club with a firing range, he hunts regularly, has all his licences, has all his guns registered and transports them properly when he takes them from his house. And I have never once heard him whine like a backwoods baby about any of it. He accepts it because as he says "these are dangerous weapons, they should be strictly controlled". He doesn't buy into this diversionary crap about how a hammer, or baseball bat or a credit card can be used as a weapon too.

He owns several weapons and enjoys them as much as any of you. He isn't paranoid about the government taking them or a whiner about something simple like registering them. If you want to own a gun then own one, just quit being a baby about it and go register the damn thing.

It unnerves me and most other reasonable people that so many gun owners are so immature about it.

[NWONT]

Another point of consideration. Some years back a guy was about to be mugged in a subway in the US by four hoodlums. He produced a gun a put a hole in each one. The crime rate in the subway system dropped by about 80% the next day. This poor bastard was thrown in jail. Every one of the gangsters were later prisoned for more muggings and one was shot and killed during a robbery. Just the knowledge that people could protect themselves had a huge effect on crime. Law enforcement can't be there all the time.

[Rockie]

The crime rate in the subway system dropped by about 80% the next day.

And the day after that the crime rate was right back up where it was before.

You can't seriously be using that as an argument? I think you will agree that in the United States they have a very free and easy association with guns. Guns are prolific there to say the least, and according to your theory the crime rate in the States is much less than Canada's as a result. Do you really believe that?

[NWONT]

This is a great forum. Rockie, you have never owned and probably never fired a rifle, yet you consider yourself an authority on the subject. Let me take a guess, your under 25 years of age and born and raised in southern Ont, likely just got out of school so haven't contibuted much to the tax system. I'm also assuming your friend hasn't started shaving yet. If your friend is so afraid of his firearms that he feels he is safer if the government should mentor him, maybe he should turn his firearms in or have an adult accompany him when he handles them.

[Andy Hamilton]

The crime rate in the subway system dropped by about 80% the next day.

And the day after that the crime rate was right back up where it was before.

You can't seriously be using that as an argument? I think you will agree that in the United States they have a very free and easy association with guns. Guns are prolific there to say the least, and according to your theory the crime rate in the States is much less than Canada's as a result. Do you really believe that?

I usually stay out of these kind of 'what if' senerios, since they are exactly that. As for firearms affecting crime rate crime rate, you need to do some research. The 2005 FBI uniform code shows lower crime rates in right to carry states. Violent crime is 28% higher, and homocides 43.6 higher on average in non right to carry States. USA today had a story on data collected by the University of Chicago on concealed carry showing drops in Homocides, rapes and aggravated assaults. Now that being said, there are more firearms crimes in the US and someone could draw a comparison to that. UK statistics show a marginal drop in fireams crime in 2003/2004, well after tighter firearms restrictions. 1998 total 864, 2004/2005 3,856. Obviously there are alot of factors that contribute to the results and this debate will always continue.

[Guido]

This is a great forum. Rockie, you have never owned and probably never fired a rifle, yet you consider yourself an authority on the subject. Let me take a guess, your under 25 years of age and born and raised in southern Ont, likely just got out of school so haven't contibuted much to the tax system. I'm also assuming your friend hasn't started shaving yet. If your friend is so afraid of his firearms that he feels he is safer if the government should mentor him, maybe he should turn his firearms in or have an adult accompany him when he handles them.

You know what happens when you assume, NWONT?

You end up looking like an ass and Rockie gets to be the smart guy for the day.

[Andy Hamilton]

You people keep missing my point. You have no objection to registering all kinds of things...except guns. What's with that? This isn't the United States. There is no provision in the Canadian constitution that gives you the right to bear arms. And no one is trying to take your precious firearms away from you either. Simply trying to get you to register them. What is your big problem with that when you'll happily register anything else?

R-E-G-I-S-T-E-R...not...T-A-K-E - A-W-A-Y

If you people are so paranoid about big brother taking your stuff why don't you all move out to the bush and exile yourself from civilized society. You can set up a nice survivalist camp and wait for civilization to destroy itself.


Paranoia again. There has not been, nor ever will be "arbitrary" search and seizure of anything in Canada by law enforcement agencies. This is a democracy and as much as I dislike them, the NDP have their uses and would never allow it. And to address a previous post about the police not liking the registry I offer the following:

David Griffin, Executive Officer of the Canadian Police Association, stated in a presentation to the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs that licensing and registration of firearms "discourages casual gun ownership" and "has been effective in preventing people who should not have guns from getting them." As a result of the legislation, Griffin reported that "tens of thousands" of "unwanted, unused and unnecessary" firearms had been turned in to police.

I'm sorry, because this country is democratic, there will never be siezures? It is not paranoia, but rather foesight. Is Australia democratic as well? Gun-owners were forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed, including semi-automatic .22 rifles and shotguns, a program costing the government over 500 million dollars. Lets be realistic, the Canadian Liberals resolution 43 called for a ban of all semi-automatic firearms... give your head a shake. The only reason it was withdrwn was the uproar heard and with a tight election loomng in the distance, it was prudent to withdraw it.

I will not be going to a survival camp,or hording my firearms. I am law abiding and will do as the law requires. But it does not mean that I cannot vioce my objections. We concentate so much on the tool and not enough on the individuals. After the Dawson shooting alot was said about firearms bans, but I heard nothing as to how to prevent this. Not one person came forward with a concern to the Police regarding Mr Kam***, although there seemed to be indications. That is our respondsibilty to society as a whole, and we failed as well. Do we really think that the world would change dramatically if all the firearms disappeared?
The majority of people want peace and the freedom to carry out our lives uninterupted. If the regisrty stays, so be it, I will continue as I have up until this point obeying the laws. But don't fool yourself into thinking more firearms restrictions will not be looked into in the future.

[NWONT]

Guido, why don't you just let Rockie respond for himself. If you want to hear from some smart guys read the posts from Andy Hamilton and Dust Devil. They state the facts in clear, concise terms and do not let their frustrations take over like I at times do.

[ocnek]

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/sh ... stry+flaws

[Rockie]

The crime rate in the subway system dropped by about 80% the next day.

And the day after that the crime rate was right back up where it was before.

You can't seriously be using that as an argument? I think you will agree that in the United States they have a very free and easy association with guns. Guns are prolific there to say the least, and according to your theory the crime rate in the States is much less than Canada's as a result. Do you really believe that?

I usually stay out of these kind of 'what if' senerios, since they are exactly that. As for firearms affecting crime rate crime rate, you need to do some research. The 2005 FBI uniform code shows lower crime rates in right to carry states. Violent crime is 28% higher, and homocides 43.6 higher on average in non right to carry States. USA today had a story on data collected by the University of Chicago on concealed carry showing drops in Homocides, rapes and aggravated assaults. Now that being said, there are more firearms crimes in the US and someone could draw a comparison to that. UK statistics show a marginal drop in fireams crime in 2003/2004, well after tighter firearms restrictions. 1998 total 864, 2004/2005 3,856. Obviously there are alot of factors that contribute to the results and this debate will always continue.

" Lies, damned lies, and statistics"
Benjamin Disreali


As you say, statistics can be used by anyone to bolster any side of any argument. I prefer to stand back, look at the big picture and use common sense. You would be hard pressed to find anyone except hard core NRA members to agree that the United States is a safer place because every Tom, Dick and Harriet carries a gun. Quite the opposite in fact. Any moron or nut case can easily get one down there and it is those people who are the danger. Up here in Canuckland we recognize that it's better to control firearms than make it childishly simple for any idiot to own one. One of the ways we do that is by registering them. People can either be grown up about it or not.

[Rockie]

This is a great forum. Rockie, you have never owned and probably never fired a rifle, yet you consider yourself an authority on the subject. Let me take a guess, your under 25 years of age and born and raised in southern Ont, likely just got out of school so haven't contibuted much to the tax system. I'm also assuming your friend hasn't started shaving yet. If your friend is so afraid of his firearms that he feels he is safer if the government should mentor him, maybe he should turn his firearms in or have an adult accompany him when he handles them.

Spectacularly wrong on both counts. Don't give up your day job to become a police profiler.

[NWONT]

Good thing I'm not a gambler. I would have bet money on that one, and lost, on both counts.

[Andy Hamilton]

[quote="Rockie
As you say, statistics can be used by anyone to bolster any side of any argument. I prefer to stand back, look at the big picture and use common sense. You would be hard pressed to find anyone except hard core NRA members to agree that the United States is a safer place because every Tom, Dick and Harriet carries a gun. Quite the opposite in fact. Any moron or nut case can easily get one down there and it is those people who are the danger. Up here in Canuckland we recognize that it's better to control firearms than make it childishly simple for any idiot to own one. One of the ways we do that is by registering them. People can either be grown up about it or not.[/quote]


As for Statistics, they were gathered by the FBI, so if anything they would be biased to the law enforcement side.
I agree we do need gun control laws. I have a license that requires a police check (criminal and mental) and every five years I have to repeat it. Up here in Canuckland we have required a license to possess firearms for well over 20 years. I believe people should be licensed and checked. I see statistics showing the number of licenses revoked or refused, that is an easy statistic to see. I have yet to see any information showing that the registery has reduced crime. Again, personally I could care less if the registry stays or goes. I do care about the amount of money wasted, and it has not slowed down. Does common sense say to throw another Billion into a flawed registry? By the way the RCMP have required registering handguns since 1945. Longuns came in 1997/98.

I agree with you that Canada is not the United States, and I have not said that the United States is safer than Canada due to their gun laws. There are too many varibles. But I will say this though; Canada is not a safer place solely because we have tighter gun control laws. I also believe that it is our culture and upbringing that makes us what we are. But I do not like governments acting with knee jerk reactions to create a facad that we are all now safer. There are alot of holes in C-68, it should have been better thought out.

I pay $7.95 a year liability insurance for my firearms in case of accidents. The insurance compamies certainly do their research.

[LH]

This is about the moment that I'd like to destroy another Canadian myth, so that we can stop playing that "we are holier than thou" that Canadians just adore playing.

It's PER CAPITA, PER CAPITA, PER CAPITA for Christ's Sake. That's the rate PER 100,000 population.

Using the PER CAPITA RATE, I have a better chance of being murdered in Winnipeg, MB than I do in Chicago, ILL or East LA, CA because my hometown's total of people murdered may be much, much lower than either of the above two American cities only because they have a larger population. Winnipeg, Edmonton and Toronto exchange the distinction of that title back and forth, with Winnipeg holding that title the longest and the most often. So understand this well.........your ass is safer in Chicago or East LA than it is in Winnipeg. It's "Per Capita" that counts........NOT the total.

The statement has also been made here and is often said that it is extremely easy for anyone to own a firearm in the USA. I'm also an ex-Member of the RCMP AND a Duel Citizen of both countries. I have lived and studied there and know the country very well. Therefore, I can state categorically that such a generalized statement about the USA and gun ownership is based on a common ignorance and NOT all of the facts.

The one item that "trips-up" the vast, vast majority of Canadians is they consider all USA gun laws to be of Federal jurisdiction as here in Canada. That IS NOT the case in the USA and NEVER has been. The ATF are in control of SOME of the gun laws, BUT not ALL of them. Therefore, you may own various handguns while living in the State of Texas and loose them all because you don't qualify for ownership when you move to Utah or Idaho. The State will know about your ownership when you start domicile in their State and expect you to fill out forms and submit background information......and they don't "give a rat's ass" what rules you had to abide by in Texas. Doesn't work like that in Canada. If I qualify for a License to own a handgun while I live in some place like Baie Verte, NFLD, then that License is valid also when I reside in Prince George, BC.........because in Canada the FEDS have 100% "say" over anything to fo with gun ownership.

Understand well.........the Feds in the US still have much "say" in gun ownership, BUT that depends on the area or law concerning gun ownership. So be extremely careful about comparing Canada to the USA on this subject because the subject is filled with all kinds of "minefields" to the unknowing or ignorant. Sometimes those comparisons will be valid and other times 100% false and mis-informed.

Lastly, FBI Statistics have been "debunked" so often in the USA that quoting them to the vast majority of police forces there will garner you only a smirk or a polite smile. They are legendary at ignoring input stats from contributing police forces and just deciding to put a "spin" on some statistic to match their ideas and opinions.

[Andy Hamilton]

It's PER CAPITA, PER CAPITA, PER CAPITA for Christ's Sake. That's the The stTherate PER 100,000 population.

Using the PER CAPITA RATE, I have a better chance of being murdered in Winnipeg, MB than I do in Chicago, ILL or East LA, CA because my hometown's total of people murdered may be much, much lower than either of the above two American cities only because they have a larger population. Winnipeg, Edmonton and Toronto exchange the distinction of that title back and forth, with Winnipeg holding that title the longest and the most often. So understand this well.........your ass is safer in Chicago or East LA than it is in Winnipeg. It's "Per Capita" that counts........NOT the total.

All my research is based per capita over a National standard and rates per 100,000

Here is some other interesting info:

Murder US 5.6 Canada 2.0
Violent Crime US 469.2 Canada 942.9
Rape US 31.7 Canada 72.2

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/legal02.htm

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_01.html

As far as accuracy, the same is said regarding the validity of stats in Canada. It is all a matter of the data you are asked to include when submitting the information, or broad catagories. But thats all we have to work with. Thanks for the input LH

[Rockie]

Using the PER CAPITA RATE, I have a better chance of being murdered in Winnipeg, MB than I do in Chicago, ILL or East LA, CA because my hometown's total of people murdered may be much, much lower than either of the above two American cities only because they have a larger population.

I hate to quote statistics for the previously stated reasons, but here goes:

Per Capita murder rates (per 1000 people)

# 24 - United States .042802/1000
# 44 - Canada .0149063/1000

Source: Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)

The big winner though is #1 Columbia at a whopping .617847/1000

But as I said before, stats only tell part of the story. A previous poster had numbers saying Canada was way ahead in total per capita violent crimes and I don't doubt his numbers for a second. You can argue both sides of any argument using statistics. What I'm getting at is these simple equations:

more guns in the hands of idiots, morons and crazies = bad
less guns in the hands of idiots, morons and crazies = good

Trot out any statistics you like, but if don't agree with these equations then you are likely one of the idiots, morons or crazies.

[LH]

WHO'S doing the research on those Stats? I'll get 100% different Stats from Patrick Moore and David Suzuki about global warming.......AND they'll back-up both their positions with FACTS.....and STATS.

Make your own statistics and screw everyone else's. You know the population of your own hamlet and you are more aware than any outsider about how many people are knifed, shot, raped, etc. Make your own per capita stat and then start comparing to those collected by the UN or some other group of "high foreheads". You'll quickly wonder where in the Hell they are getting their infomation from because it doesn't "jive" at all with your stats and you LIVE in the bloody place.

Be VERY questioning and leery of "Stats". While attending University after my return from service with the American Army in Vietnam, I had a Professor with a PhD tell us in class one day about a certain battle and how nobody survived the North Vietnamese onslaught. He became extremely annoyed and turfed me from the class when I said that I had survived and so did lots of others.......and that he was misinformed. Let me be kind and say that the information and "stats" this gentleman had read were slightly different than mind and most of that had to do with the way we both went about collecting them.

"Stats' concerning ANYTHING that originates from any of the offices of the UN.......you gotta be kidding? I need no offices in a foreign country to tell me that an average of 7 vehicles are stolen in Winnipeg EACH day because I see the local news and read my local newspapers. I also know that 4 of that total were stolen by the same group of kids today. I KNOW that seldom are the thieves over 16 years of age and many are less than 11 years old. I also know the number of murders in Winnipeg last year and I know the population figure in my hamlet. I can get the same figures from Chicago and do my own math and garner my own "Stats" and I guarantee you that they will differ from those collected by Ottawa or the UN.

[Rockie]

WHO'S doing the research in those Stats. I'll get 100% different Stats from Patrick Moore and David Suzuki about global warming.

Exactly LH! Stats are useless.

[Andy Hamilton]

Right on Rockie you are correct less guns in the hands of morons is right, and that is what the license is for. Using that logic we should have more restrictions alcohol too. Less alcohol in the hands of idiots equals less injuries and fatalities.

Stats Canada inputs results from arrests per Police service per category of crime. Anyway I agree with you both on this point, but thats all we have to work with. That being said LH, where are you getting you stats from regarding Winnepeg and Chicago? It was OK to spew out facts a few posts ago, and now you have a problem with it.

Anyway I agree, we need gun control, as long as it is well thought out logical and carries out its intended purposes. Bill C-68 does not do that nor does the registry in its current form.

[CID]

It's tough to have a discussion about guns due to the extreme emotions it seems to incite so I won't bother getting in to any more "smoke and mirror" comparisons.

Especially when we start into the "my stats are better than your stats" war or "stats? we don't need no stinkin stats".

I guess we're all safe because the news and stats are BS. I guess some people need a bullet ridden body to actually fall in their lap before they believe. Unless you're one of the gun nuts. Then you'll convince yourself that the corpse spontaneously sprouted all those holes, and in some way its the governments fault for denying him his "right" to drive on the left because the Brits do it.

[Wasps rule]

[quote="Rockie] What I'm getting at is these simple equations:

more guns in the hands of idiots, morons and crazies = bad
less guns in the hands of idiots, morons and crazies = good

Trot out any statistics you like, but if don't agree with these equations then you are likely one of the idiots, morons or crazies.[/quote]

Good to see we can all play nice. Not quite as direct as Niss's "I can't stand rednecks" confession but close.

Since you are quoting UN stats from around the world, I think I could point you toward 800 000 dead Rwandans who would disagree with you. I have a dim view of anyone who advocates the disarming of the masses. History has all the lessons you need.

I have witnessed several of the debates both on and offline and it is rare that anybody ever trots out Swiss crime rates. For those who may not know, all males are issued assault rifles for their military service and are required to keep them at home, yet little crime exists there.

According to Rockie, Switzerland is chock full of idiots, morons, and crazies. Simple enough for you?

[Rockie]

Who's talking about disarming the world? Just registering them. And since you brought up the Swiss, I can assure you they know everyone who has been issued a weapon, and it is recorded by serial number and who it was issued to. Kind of like a registry huh?

It's about knowing who has the guns and what they are. And for the record, I called no one a moron, idiot or crazy, I just think guns should be kept out of their hands. Wouldn't you agree?

[Cat Driver]

The argument is redundant because anyone can buy any gun they want illegally.

The black market just thrives on any restriction of guns.

Registering them is not something crimminals are going to do anyhow.