Myths about firearms

[xsbank]

I don't know that he doesn't have a 'collector' designation, do you?

I would suspect that if he likes prohibited weapons that he's not going to rush to tell the cops that he has some.

If he had not been found out somehow, if he is not using them or selling them and they are safely stored, does a gun collector have any affect on yours or anyone else' lives? Is there any harm?

I don't know where to find a SAM, but if I had one, you would never know it, so how could it hurt? If I have it mounted on my wall because I think a piece of pipe looks cool, so what? Maybe after I'm dead and some kids dig through the rubble of my home and find it they might blow themselves up but I doubt it as my house will be 200' under water with global warming.

I think the state is meddling in our lives too much - as long as I'm not hurting anyone, leave me alone with my wall-mounted pipes or my Thompson.

You worry too much about what other people are doing; you are worrying about things that are not important and ultimately none of your business.

[LH]

xsbank -------that statement of "drivel" demonstrates that all you know about missiles and their effects has come from movies and books. Sorry to "burst your bubble" sir, but Hollywood's special effects crews are good, but after all these decades they still can't even make a grenade explode the way it really does. Your statement indicates gross ignorance and for that you can be excused. I'll also trust that you never do get your hands on a shoulder-fired missile and that none of the anti-gun crowd have the good fortune to read your comments here. They got enough good "fodder" as it is and I hate to see them get even more.

Ohhhhh yeah and another thing. I worry about very little at the best of times. You can bet your ass though that if I ever found out one of my neighbours had a missile or something else idiotic like that, then I'd MAKE his business my business.....and I wouldn't be concerned at all about his Rights either.

[NWONT]

My point from the beginning has been that there is a clear and easily defined line between some guy with over six hundred weapons purposely designed for killing human beings or hunting rifles. Something like a Cessna 172 and a F18. They basically do the same thing but their purpose and application are totally different. Sub machine guns etc, should be monitored and controlled, but why spend two billion of our tax dollars registering the sporting goods of law abiding citizens.

[Rockie]

My point from the beginning has been that there is a clear and easily defined line between some guy with over six hundred weapons purposely designed for killing human beings or hunting rifles. Something like a Cessna 172 and a F18. They basically do the same thing but their purpose and application are totally different. Sub machine guns etc, should be monitored and controlled, but why spend two billion of our tax dollars registering the sporting goods of law abiding citizens.

You have inadvertently hit upon the crux of this whole issue NWONT. The clear and easily defined line you talk about does not exist except in your individual minds, and everyone has a different opinion. Your line is somewhere between a sub-machine gun and a hunting rifle. xsbank's is somewhere north of shoulder launched SAM's. Canadian society's line is not at all defined and that is what the gun owners are struggling with because every time there is some atrocity committed that line, where ever it is, moves farther south.

Gun owners are going to have to come to some compromise with Canadian society and jointly establish that line that you refer to. You will have to drop the rights and freedoms argument. Some gun owners will have to give up Grampa's elephant gun (what's wrong with disabling it anyway). And xsbank will definitely have to surrender his anti-tank missiles.

But establish that line with society and ultimately everyone will be happier.

[NWONT]

Nobody has to give up his rights, freedoms and dignity to get his message across. It has to be done with force and confrontation, such as is happening in Kenora right now. The population tried to reason with the Liberals for years. It didn't work. How do you communicate with a leader that transfers his business offshore so he dosn't have to pay Canadian taxes or abide by Canadian labour laws. The only way is to remove them from power as was done. A few Liberal stooges were thrown in prison, not enough of them and not for long enough, also the ringleaders walked away. There is no need to penalize the law abiding citizens with sporting goods because of a few nut cases with Uzis. Why must an outdoorsman pay for licence and insurance for a fourwheeler to go fishing yet a golf cart runs down the side of the road with nothing. You can also mount a snowblower on your fourwheeler and hang a red triangle on the back, now your legal again. This country is f*#cked up. We have to fix it. The registry is nearing two billion. The court case ,I have heard is costing our side about $300,000, how many tax dollars for the crowns side. The Liberals caused this they should be forced to pay for it, but thats obviously a pipe dream. The only good that can come out of this is to fix the problem and let every government know that the citizens will stand up for themselves and not to be so quick to try something like this again.

[Rockie]

Nobody has to give up his rights, freedoms and dignity to get his message across. It has to be done with force and confrontation, such as is happening in Kenora right now. The population tried to reason with the Liberals for years. It didn't work. How do you communicate with a leader that transfers his business offshore so he dosn't have to pay Canadian taxes or abide by Canadian labour laws. The only way is to remove them from power as was done. A few Liberal stooges were thrown in prison, not enough of them and not for long enough, also the ringleaders walked away. There is no need to penalize the law abiding citizens with sporting goods because of a few nut cases with Uzis. Why must an outdoorsman pay for licence and insurance for a fourwheeler to go fishing yet a golf cart runs down the side of the road with nothing. You can also mount a snowblower on your fourwheeler and hang a red triangle on the back, now your legal again. This country is f*#cked up. We have to fix it. The registry is nearing two billion. The court case ,I have heard is costing our side about $300,000, how many tax dollars for the crowns side. The Liberals caused this they should be forced to pay for it, but thats obviously a pipe dream. The only good that can come out of this is to fix the problem and let every government know that the citizens will stand up for themselves and not to be so quick to try something like this again.

This is why you guys are screwed.

[Dust Devil]

You will have to drop the rights and freedoms argument.

That's the last argument that should be dropped and what I feel is screwed up his how easily you dismiss the argument.

People who claim the gun owners who have refused to register their fire arms are somehow irresponsible and immature should keep in mind that there is a place in this world for civil disobediance. Many of the wrongs our governments have tried to inflict on the people have been overcome thru civil disobediance. Just because it's law doesn't make it right.

[NWONT]

Right on Dust devil. This country was tamed with firearms, we protect ourselves from our enemies, at home and abroad with firearms. As long as we can defend ourselves our enemies will respect us. Our enemy tried to disarm us, I'm talking about the liberals, we can't let that happen. I'm sure the Liberals took note of the Romanians. They had a crooked, corrupt leader so they stood their president in the back yard along with his old lady and blew the both of them out of their shoes. If you check the dictionary under "honest politition" they have a picture of the Romainian pres.

[Rockie]

Whatever you guys do, do not let NWONT be your spokesman.

You as a group have to realize your fight is not with the government, and you won't win it by fighting the government. Your fight is public perception and how it influences government. It has to do with political influence, how you have none, and what you can do about it. I'll give you two examples.

1. The Conservative government treated the environment issue with ambivalence at best, until they wised up to the massive support it was gaining among the population. They wisely made it a priority. Failure to do so would have been fatal to them politically and they knew it. If the people didn't care, neither would they.

2. Natives. Every level of government is scared to death of the Natives because they carry invincible political weight. A single native can, if he plays his cards right and has the right kind of issue, bring any Canadian government to its knees. Natives can openly defy Canadian law and the government will do absolutely nothing about it because they are frightened by the Natives power on the international stage.

Down in the States the NRA is a political force to be reckoned with. They have the numbers, and the right kind of national psyche and history to make their arguments effective. In Canada, our history and attitudes toward firearms do not support you. And you do not have the numbers to give you the political influence you need to make your arguments count. So you cannot force the government to do anything and for sure, civil disobedience will get you nowhere in Canada on this issue.

Your only hope is to get the public to feel non-threatened enough to make them stop pressuring the government to take away your guns. Your rights and freedoms are nothing compared to what the government will do to get re-elected. Take away the political pressure on the government to do something about your guns and your problems will go away. Not before.

[LH]

The whole argument and discussion about all this was pumped-up as soon as the Feds decided they wanted all long guns registered also. The problem now went from being a restriction on a low percentage of gun owners who also owned handguns to being literally a "mom and pop" issue acfoss many areas of Canada. These are not the moms and pops of Scarborough or north-end Montreal, etc., but the moms and pops of rural areas in western Canada where a handgun is as useful as tits on a boar and long guns are used on the property for things that the urban dweller has absolutely no need for and in many cases doesn't believe anyway. There are numerous farming/ranching households where they haven't gone hunting for eons because they don't have the bloody time........but they still need the long guns even so. Retaining them without hassle is not because of the next robbery they are planning, a shooting spree at some University in the city or the killing/threatening the dude who was flirting with the wife at the Legion dance last night. They need them to keep the Black bear and wolf away during calving season because they can't afford to loose the money that the young calves represent. They also slaughter, butcher and eat their own meat on the farm and the rifle is used to kill the animal in a quick and proper way. As mentioned before, it is also used sometimes to keep the wolf that is suffering from "mange" and in dire need of food, from getting perilously close to the 3 year old in a stroller on the back lawn while mother uses the clothesline nearby.

These people know nothing at all about handguns because their usage on a farm/ranch is very specialized at best. They need a long gun because of the distance it shoots........the neighbours house and fence line are not 100' distant...........many times more like 3-5 miles. They also need something that their wives are used to because they too were raised around them and taught to use them properly. They are a multi-use tool and do many things for them. To the urban dweller, that exact same long gun has only three possible legal uses..........hunting/personal protection/target shooting. For the farmer/rancher, they can also be used for that, but recreational hunting is far from paramount and personal protection from other human beings doesn't even make it onto the radarscope as far as importance is concerned. They don't have the time nor the money for recreational target shooting, so that's not a factor at all. Different world, different mindset, different attitude, but according to Ottawa and others, the same rules should apply as they do anywhere else in Canada......urban or rural.

[Andy Hamilton]

[quote="Rockie
Well, I am pretty partial to shoulder launched SAM missiles. I think they're cool. The fact they are illegal shouldn't stop me should it? After all, I'm just a collector. I'm not actually gonna shoot anybody with it.

Help me out here xsbank. where can I get some?[/quote]

Actually there is nothing in the Firearms Act prohibiting shoulder lanched missile launchers. You could legally bring in all the launchers you want. It is not considered a firearm. Now the explosive charge in the projectile may be a different story.

[xsbank]

I don't know anything about shoulder launched missiles or any other type of missile, for that matter. I don't have one. Presumably a projectile from one could be quite damaging and shouldn't be left lying about. In fact if I did have one, its probably the military's fault. My father used to have a grenade, neutralised, that he brought back from WW2...

If I DID have one screwed to my wall, and there it stayed, who should care? If I took it out on halloween and shot it in the air, ok lunacy.

Don't you get it? A gun is just a small collection of machine parts. If my house was waist-deep in them, nobody is harmed. If I take one, loaded, in my car with me, lunacy.

I think there is too much rhetoric spouted about guns. They are a tool, just like a knife or a hammer and are just as dangerous. They need to be handled properly and used for the correct task. I've cut myself waaay more times that I've shot myself. The big lie, the huge bullsh*t about how much damage they do and how great it would be to register them all, is just bullsh*t.

You should all take one step back and think hard about how much you want your sad collection of bureaucrats, your government, from knowing about you or messing about in your life.

I've said it before numerous times, the murder rate does not even make it into the top-20 of things that kill us in Canada. Cancer and heart disease kill 150,000 people a year and guns kill about 200, most of whom are criminals already.

Pure political bullshit. The government said they couldn't afford lots of programs but had 2 BILLION to pay for gun registries, purely because the populace has been frightened about guns. Remember SARS? Remember Mad cow? Remember anthrax?

I'll bet 2 billion to clean up hospitals and do heart-disease research and teach children not to smoke or eat at MacDonalds would save way more lives.

I therefore resolve to refuse to argue with anybody who thinks guns are a problem in this country. To say they are is total political bullsh*t.

[spooky]

You can tell the city bound, city oriented, city stuck in the frame of mind of some of these contributors.
Some of these city slickers look around at all the apartments and stores and gas stations within a mile of their residences.
Then they say to themselves, "who needs a gun around here"?
That little piece of real estate south of Sudbury is only about 15% of the province of Ontario. The other 85% needs guns to keep the bears from their dwelling.
This is where the north/south conflict starts. If the northerners were to look at it from the opposite viewpoint, then why don't the Torontonians watch for bears. Because they've driven them all out. Let's bring the wolves and bears and deer and moose back to the Don Valley Parkway.
That's their natural habitat.
For the last time, most of Ontario is not urban and doesn't need urban laws. If you have a problem in Toronto, pass a bylaw and don't bother the rest of the country with your piddling problems. Those problems are yours and not the rest of the country's. But the first thing that happens down east to disturb you, you think the rest of Canada should give a shit.
Montreal and Toronto are just on the fringe of southern Canada. I think the term is an anomaly. No I didn't look it up.
There's too many people crammed into too small a place. Spread out and quit building those big high firetraps.
Most of Canada doesn't have high crime rates, it's only in the cities. Cities are breeding grounds for criminals, let's ban cities not guns.
Ready for the counter barrage. Let's have it. Signed Country Hick.

[Rockie]

Spooky

Every point you make about how the biggest part of this country is not urban and how you have different requirements is absolutely correct. What I've been trying to get you guys to realize is that rural acreage doesn't count, the majority of voters live in the city. It is the majority of voters who have any government's ear and you can't beat that...all you can do is work with it.

This has nothing to do with common sense or what's right for you. This is politics, and gun owners in Canada have a very small voice.

[Andy Hamilton]

Firearms owners are 2 million strong and growing. We have to keep the momentum up and continue to bring more people into the firearms community, or at least gain a positive attitude from individuals. There are 31 plus million people in Canada as of the 2006 census poll.

[Dust Devil]

rural acreage doesn't count, the majority of voters live in the city. It is the majority of voters who have any government's ear and you can't beat that...all you can do is work with it.

Givin that statement I suppose you feel gay people shouldn't have their concerns listened too because they reperesent a small portion of the voting population. Sorry but we are supposed to be in a country that respects the rights of the minority. Unless of course the minority resides in Western Canada.

[Rockie]

rural acreage doesn't count, the majority of voters live in the city. It is the majority of voters who have any government's ear and you can't beat that...all you can do is work with it.

Givin that statement I suppose you feel gay people shouldn't have their concerns listened too because they reperesent a small portion of the voting population. Sorry but we are supposed to be in a country that respects the rights of the minority. Unless of course the minority resides in Western Canada.

Don't make suppositions. So far your success rate is right up there with NWONT's

As a matter of interest gay people are probably fewer in number than gun owners, but they have way more political clout because of the liberal nature of Canadian society. If you could get half the consideration from society that gay people enjoy we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Now go ahead and call me a gay basher.

[Dust Devil]

rural acreage doesn't count, the majority of voters live in the city. It is the majority of voters who have any government's ear and you can't beat that...all you can do is work with it.

Givin that statement I suppose you feel gay people shouldn't have their concerns listened too because they reperesent a small portion of the voting population. Sorry but we are supposed to be in a country that respects the rights of the minority. Unless of course the minority resides in Western Canada.

Don't make suppositions. So far your success rate is right up there with NWONT's

As a matter of interest gay people are probably fewer in number than gun owners, but they have way more political clout because of the liberal nature of Canadian society. If you could get half the consideration from society that gay people enjoy we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Now go ahead and call me a gay basher.

They day is going to come when you fall into a minority intrest group. Hopefully someone is there to defend you because if your left to the task you'll lose.

[Rockie]

Givin that statement I suppose you feel gay people shouldn't have their concerns listened too because they reperesent a small portion of the voting population. Sorry but we are supposed to be in a country that respects the rights of the minority. Unless of course the minority resides in Western Canada.

Don't make suppositions. So far your success rate is right up there with NWONT's

As a matter of interest gay people are probably fewer in number than gun owners, but they have way more political clout because of the liberal nature of Canadian society. If you could get half the consideration from society that gay people enjoy we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Now go ahead and call me a gay basher.

They day is going to come when you fall into a minority intrest group. Hopefully someone is there to defend you because if your left to the task you'll lose.

I'll have much more success than you because I have a much better understanding of political reality, and therefore how to deal with it.

[NWONT]

Much as I hate to admit it, Rockie is right about voting numbers in the urban areas. Trying to get them to listen to a viewpoint that dosn't effect city life is a waste of time. As an example, the Schad foundation (spelling) showed them a picture of a bear cub and told them there were hundreds being orphaned by bear hunting. With nothing more than a picture and false information they theatened Mike Harris with their votes and the bear hunt ended overnight. Now are communities are overrun with bears and a large part of our tourist economy was destroyed. They couldn't care less. When the sars problem broke out in Toronto and Lastman was crying on the media, begging people to come south and spend some tourist dollars. I thought, hey looks good on you, hope the effect is as severe as ours was. I also thought maybe the waste of billions of tax dollars would clue them in but that didn't work either. Canadians made a feeble attempt at organizing the gun owners, but as usual nobody could agree on anything so many small, powerless groups were born. I contacted the NFA and in a matter of minutes concluded they were just a bunch of grovelling ass lickers. If the court battle in Kenora is lost it will be a dark day for firearms owners in Canada. The only chance after that will be for all owners to join one lobbying group and stand as a united force. That is also a pipe dream.

[spooky]

Rockie is correct. It's politics, a fact of life. But voters can change that.
With power comes responsibility. Or does might make right?
Don't get led around by the nose by a party that you can't even trust with our tax dollars. The Liberanos are counting on paranoia to get them back into power. Someone is shot, ban all guns.
By the same logic, one horse bucks you off, get rid of the entire stable.

Registering firearms isn't the main issue, never really was.
Confiscation, uneven application of the law, hearsay taken as fact, and rigid standards of licensing are all woven into the gun registry.

Confiscation seems to be the ultimate goal. Rock says that only the police and the military need firearms. What he really said is that citizens not given a rank by the government aren't capable of responsible handling of firearms, or firearms are of no use to anyone but those two services.

Then there is the exemption of certain races from the registry. Sure sounds like racism to me, preferential treatment on the basis of race.

Anyone can fabricate a story about a gun owner and his firearms can be taken on hearsay alone.

And stupid, rigid rules of licensing. A man who has been divorced from his first wife for over 30 years, doesn't know where she is or if she's even alive, must have her signiture to qualify for a gun license. Sounds like an excellent opportunity for blackmail. Also a very arbitrary reason to deny the licence.

The registry has been used for political gain by the Liberals, and the voting public isn't intelligent enough to see that without the entire North American continent agreeing to this idea, then guns are just an imaginery line in the ground away.

That's why Montague is in court in Kenora. And that's why I support him.

[hotspur666]

2. Natives. Every level of government is scared to death of the Natives

"scared to death"


Ya better!

'CAUSE WE HAVE ALL THE GUNS!!!



Seriously, this is all a crock...

I live on a reservation, my son and daughter in law
are involved in high level negotiations with the federal
and provincial prime ministers
and take it from somebody NOT talking though his hat,
the Indian's power is proportional to their number,
wich is near zero!

They are all smiles and love the photo ops,
but you cant expect from LIBERALS and
PROGRESSIVE-conservatives with a small "c" not much more
than bullshit, would you!!!

(Excuse me, I lived too long in the USA,
yes, in PC snowbilly, you must say "natives")

[hotspur666]

Maybe after I'm dead and some kids dig through the rubble of my home and find it they might blow themselves up but I doubt it as my house will be 200' under water with global warming.

Maybe if you buy indulgences, hum, carbon credits from
Goregasm's church of happy hippies, your house will be lofted above water...

You never know, with these carbon credits, I hear they're
miraculous...

[Rockie]

2. Natives. Every level of government is scared to death of the Natives

the Indian's power is proportional to their number,
wich is near zero

Good luck convincing anybody of that.

[LH]

Buddy, you better take a stroll out to places like Slave Lake, Alberta and into the Okanagan Valey of BC and you'll find out all about natives with no power and living in squalor. The Natives there haven't relied on the "white eyes" for anything and they got more money than God........and they ain't sitting on top of oil or gas either.