Passenger reports possible oil leak - what would you do?

[Pratt X 3]

And before anyone says anything about the age of the previous examples of oil quantity qauges, here's some newer stuff.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1171460/L/
Look on the screen that says cruise at the top.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1052165/L/
Engine screen.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0272065/L/
Oil Q %

[Captain S itmagnet]

Many questions cannot be answered without going to have a look myself. What exactly is a "minor" leak anyway? What does this passenger know? To a fraidycat passenger on his first flight, a streak of bug guts on the cowling is misinterpreted as a leak. To a student pilot trying to impress the young lady beside him this is a chance to say "I'm a pilot too" in a very immature way. To a commuting type-rated pilot bug guts are a non-event.

I must agree that having a look will give me a more accurate picture of what may or may not be going on. I would definitely pass word to the I/C to have the passenger stay behind after the flight so that I could thank him, even if he was out to lunch. If you make him feel like a schmuck then he will never speak up. As cited earlier, this is legally inserted into the preflight pax briefing as a direct result of the F28 wreck in Dryden. On the flip side, as a commuter it is quite comical some of the comments one hears while riding along. Likely 99% of folks wouldn't know what a "minor" leak was anyway.

[Doc]

Guess I need to get out more.

[kevind]

A few months ago I was on the red eye from YYC to YYZ - 767 Fin 604 (gimli glider) and sitting just aft of wings.

Anyway.....

We rotate and buddy beside me doesn't look happy, the mains come off the ground with a loud thunk (oloes going to full extension) and buddy freaks.

"Oh my god, we blew a tire"

I calmed buddy down and went to sleep.

edited cause i cann't type

[just curious]

I'd go have a look.

[Big Pratt]

A few months ago I was on the red eye from YYC to YYC - 767 Fin 604 (gimli glider) and sitting just aft of wings.

YYC to YYC.... I won't even ask why your eyes were red he he

[wxguy]

I'd like to point out what happened on Aloha Airlines 243. A passenger noticed a crack while boarding, but was afraid to tell the flight crew.

Read below:

"On April 28, 1988, the aircraft suffered extensive damage after an explosive decompression in flight, but was able to land safely at Kahului Airport on Maui. One crew member was blown out of the airplane and another 65 passengers and crew were injured....a passenger noticed a crack in the fuselage upon boarding the aircraft prior to the ill-fated flight but did not notify anyone" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243

[xsbank]

Doc got the oil quantity gauge wrong. He, like myself and a couple of others, gets so damned angry when he hears the attitudes on this list. If you think your only job is to drive the bus, then maybe that's what you should go and do - TransLink is looking for 600 new bus drivers and Raven, this bus' for you.

- if you think you are going to be hijacked, then don't go flying
- if you think your passengers, you know, the ones that pay for the tickets(?) are just WOF (walk on freight), then you are a WOS (waste of skin). Just wait until the music stops and you'll wonder where all the pax went just before you wonder where your job went. Remember Air Canada? It went bankrupt, once.

[dashx]

The PT6's I've worked on have at some point or another leaked. Isn't that why some operators (owners) paint the bottom of the nacelles a dark grey or black colour?
How about the oil coolers? Vernatherms? And let's not forget the garloc (carbon) seals.
At what point do leaks get addressed? When it's written up the pilots after/before a flight? Or by maintenance during a regular inspection?
The manufacturer of the A/C I currently work on has limits on fuel leaks. Just try to explain to passengers their A/C can have fuel leaking out of a tank....
I've seen a PT6 even get flooded with oil...... And spill oil out onto the tarmac. The oil gets past the seal (you know the air or "labyrinth" seal as PW calls it) and in a worst case scenario will spill out. And yes we had to call PW to confirm it......Now how do you suppose the pilot managed to do that????
I take all leaks (air/fuel/hydraulic/oil) seriously as does my DOM. I take it seriously regardless whether or not I have to fly on the A/C.

But the question was in regards to an observed minor oil leak that comes and goes. Very strange indeed. Even if the pilot was to come and have a look what could he do???

Can you as a passenger tell the difference between Skydrol, engine oil and jet fuel????? Maybe maybe not.

Fly the plane, monitor the instruments (have the F/A monitor the "leak" for you and communicate with him/her), land, and notify maintenance after landing.

[LH]

Okay, so the temp is way up and the pressure reading is way down. The passenger is just going to have to wait awhile for me to explain about the massive oil leak he's been watching in the starboard "stove" for that last 10 minutes. Some days I'm the bird and some days I'm the statue.

[Cat Driver]

I think I'm going to take the train or a bus from now on.

[HavaJava]

Who knows what was going through the original flightcrew's head. Perhaps the Captain was considering the security aspects of the situation, perhaps the crew did not feel that a trip to the cabin was warrented considering all the information at their disposal, or perhaps they were just being lazy asses. From the information presented we will never know.

I don't think The Raven was necessarily trying to defend this specific flightcrew because more than likely he does not know any more specifics of the incident than any of the rest of us. He does however bring up a very valid and interesting point regarding security precautions in situations like this.

The very design of AvCanada tends to attract people that are working their way up the career ladder (searching the Free Job Ads) or are involved in a specific area of aviation that do not have a large online community to fall back on (Cat and Hedley come to mind for this category). The reason why there are RELATIVELY few senior airlines pilots on here is because:
a) they have their own online forums and communities where they can voice concerns specific to them, and
b) at this point in their careers they could care less about bickering on the internet.
Most of the airline pilots who do post on this forum started posting before they were hired at their respective companies. Because of this, most of the posters on this forum have been flying relatively small airplanes or are new to flying airliners.

So, where am I going with this? Well, since the majority of people on AvCanada fly or recently flew relatively small aircraft, many feel that security is not their problem and terrorism couldn't happen to them. The difficulty with this thought process is where do you draw the line as to when you are going to give a damn about security. When you fly a dash-8? a RJ? a 320? a 777? Or will you give a damn when you're flying your measly metroliner.

I am currently a Captain on a turboprop and I don't have the luxury of a cockpit door. Considering my equipment and the area I fly in it would be easy to assume that I would never be a target of terrorism. One day I started thinking about my complacency in this area and made myself consider why a terrorist might target me and what he could possibly do with my plane. Well, it didn't take long to realize that even though my airplane couldn't take down a skyscraper, it could definately do some pretty horrible damage if someone had a specific goal in mind. Not only do I not want to risk my own life or my passengers lives, I don't want to be the careless pilot who caused the industry to tank again like it did after 9/11. We all know how laughable the typical airport security is, so the fact is that we as pilots are the last line of defense when it comes to terror threats. We owe it to ourselves and our passengers to take security more seriously.

Getting back to the original post, I don't think The Raven is saying that you shouldn't do anything in a situation like Widow posted, but instead that aircraft security and potential terrorism threats should be on your list of priorities as well. Obviously, if you have numerous redundant gauges at your disposal to monitor a potential problem, and another crew-member (flight attendant) to give a semi-experienced observation then a trip to the cabin is probably not required. However, good communication is a must, and in this case not only would it ensure safety but it would also ensure good public relations.

[cumufsumyunguy]

The only time I would ever feel the need to go in the back based on a passenger concern is if it coincided with an indication up front...or if it was a structural problem that could be varified by another crew member, ie- a flight attendant. I think most people are talking about transport catergory aircraft here...think about it, people learn and then they begin to expect things. Do you think you could reasonably expect to satisfy everyone's concerns all the time??? Didn't think so, so where do you draw the line? ...what the hell are you going to do anyway, climb out there and fix it??? Are you going to shut down the engine with no other indication of a problem??? That's ok though, I'm probably wrong and we should all be running laps around the airplane everytime we have a "blown tire" when the gear comes up lol.

[LH]

cumufsumyunguy --------never had the variety of problems with passengers that you are concerned about in 24,000+ hrs in aviation. The vast majority of my passengers over the years were about as exciting/problematic during the flight as watching paint dry. That does not mean that I had no problems over that time, but there's a big difference between a slightly concerned passenger that sees something that disturbs him on an engine nacelle and an unruly drunk.

[The Raven]

The one good thing about this forum is that sometimes it forces you back into the books.

I just re-read my Company Operations Manual and it states that the pilot is only to leave the flight deck for "overriding safety concerns". Is a minor oil leak on a 1 hour 45 minute flight an overriding safety concern that warrants me leaving the flight deck? If my 3 oil guages are reading normal, top of descent is approaching, and all reports are that the leak is minor, I doubt that I would leave the flight deck. At most, I might reduce thrust on that engine for the short time left in the flight.

Sure, it might be nice to go back and reassure the passengers, but unfortunately Transport Canada says that is not allowed.

As an aside, we could run the 747 to zero oil quantity on the guages without doing anything. You only shut it down when the oil pressure light came on. Lots of times on a 10 hour flight the oil quantity on one engine was approaching zero by the time we landed. No big deal. Only had the pressure light come on once and that was departing Paris. The pressure light came on about 30 seconds after take-off, so one could assume the oil leak was a bit worse than 'minor'. Shut it down, did the dreaded 3 engine approach and spent an extra couple of days in Paris.

[Doc]

That sheds a little light on The Raven's point of view as well. Big difference between a 747 driver exposing (is that a good word?) himself to 300 pax, and a Dash 8, or Saab, or Metro driver saying "Hi" to a passenger between Upper Armpit Sask, and Runny Nose Man! In your case (747 etc.) I'm with you.
Just for interest, the rear engine on a DC 10 several years ago was placed on an engine stand, and run for over a week with NO oil in the engine, save residual oil from being drained! Try THAT with your R1830!

[LH]

Raven ------ you have named a specific situation and I wouldn't get out of my seat under those circumstances either.

Please don't use the 747 in comparison to a Dash-8 because it quickly becomes silly. Why? How many hydraulic systems has the Dash-8 got compared to the 747. Let's put it this way........the captain of a 747 can loose SIX hydraulic systems and he still got a good one left.

The situation you talk about with engines being run dry of oil and running so long like that is old, old news. It's perhaps new to you, but the vast majority of engines have the exact same thing done to them, so that the manufacturers can state the exact same thing you just did.. The vast majority are also tested to HP or "Pounds of static thrust" that is well past what their manufacturers state. Leavens Brothers did that in a test bed with the Lycoming 540 and that was back in the mid to late 60's. They ran it with absolutely no oil at all in it for something in the order of 3 hours before she seized-up.

[Doc]

Running a 540, or any piston engine without oil...what would that prove? More to the point, how long can you run without any serviceable brain cells?

[Axial Flow]

Reminds me of a time after shutdown as I exited the airplane the ramp guy came over to me and said that there was oil leaking from under the engine.

I said "Oh that's just the environmental can draining after shutdown and that is just jet fuel". He then insisted it was oil and that I go look. To appease him I figured I better go check.... as soon as I walked around the nose I could see oil all over the ground right under the engine up about 3 feet from the enviro can was. The oil filter had been changed the night before and the rubber seal was pinched but only gave way at shutdown pukin all our oil on the ramp. Thanks ramp guy !!!

Maybe it stems from the pilot mentality. I grabbed this little excerpt from Lyle Prousse's post on PPRUNE. It is so true Again answers the "What do the passengers know" comment.

"...how about using facts versus injecting opinion and visceral reaction. Having been a pilot since 1961 I'm familiar with the propensity of pilots to be authorities on things we know nothing about -and I include myself in that group...although I've done much to try to change that."-Lyle Prousse

...also disregarding observations from people who can't possibly know what's happening on "my" airplane.....

[Fresh Prince of King Air]

PW120's 121's and 123's are designed to leak oil. They have an oil vent at the very aft point of the Nacelle. I believe that the AC Gen is oil cooled and also has a vent on the outside of the nacelle. Plus the oil coolers always fail and there are two vents in the bottom of the lower cowl that extend out about 4 inches that vent anything that comes out from other parts of the engine.

An oil leak on a Dash is very normal.

[LH]

Doc ------ "what would that prove?" The vast majority of engine maufacturers have enough brain cells to realize they should always be keeping potential military contracts in mind for their products. If the military "comes knocking" they may be from any country and they don't order 10-15 engines per year. In the military, they are more than interested in the extremes that any given engine can be taken to in emergencies. On a personal note and with that thought in mind, I ran a Lycoming T53-13 for 20 mins. without any visible oil pressure in order to save my a/c and my crew. That engine was still operating and making power when I touched down.

So you can bet your ass that any a/c engine you fly will operate outside the FM parameters that you see published. In the military it is what used to be termed "war emergency power".

[xsbank]

There is a difference between an oil leak and an oil vent. Both the Rolls and the GEs I am familiar with have vents where some smoke comes out and some oil vapour. A leak is a tired engine or a snag.

[KISS_MY_TCAS]

PW120's 121's and 123's are designed to leak oil.

Not designed to, but they do it and it is normal, every Pratt I have ever encountered leaks oil from somewhere from PT6s up to PW4098s and everything in between. The AC gen on the PW100 series is air cooled, but has a wet spline that leaks into the blast duct when the seal wears and the air pulls the oil out with it all over the cowl. More commonly, the breather on the bottom of the nacelle will carry any excess oil overboard and blow it all over, Pratts set their own oil level and if there is more in there than the engine wants to run with, it simply vents it through the breather, and this phenomenon is not exclusive to one engine manufacturer it is pretty much universal. What most passengers and unfortunately most flight crews do not know is how much oil there engines hold, and how far a cup of oil flows when it leaks. One cup of oil that streaks 20 feet is pretty minor in an engine that holds 15 quarts.

As an aside, I know pilots that have WILLINGLY initiated a flight knowing their oil level was lower than the level the company normally ran the aircraft at, and had a pressure fluctuation on the outbound leg. Rather than check the oil level at their destination, they flew it back on the inbound leg and monitored the fluctuation, going so far as to detail the numbers it fluctuated between and the frequency of fluctuations in flight so they could be more accurate when generating a snag in the journey log. They came VERY close by pure luck of having to send the engine for overhaul according to the charts in the engine manual, it was later found via troubleshooting the engine was 5 quarts low on oil, the leak was internal so the cowling stayed clean the whole time. Fluid leaks on engines are part of life, check under the hood of your own car and keep in mind it runs at a much lower RPM for a lower period of time than the engines in any aircraft you have flown or ever will fly, odds are good they still leak with less operating time and cycling than the engine in your plane. Plus you don't floor the pedal on your car to get in moving from a stop when you begin your journey.

Moral of the story: verify your oil level on the ground between legs and watch your instruments, they will tell you far more than anything else. If I remember correctly, oil pressure systems on 705 aircraft are REQUIRED to be redundant, usually the gauge and warning light get their pressure source from different points, so even with a gauge failure you are still safe in that regard.

[gli77]

LH:
"..... On a personal note and with that thought in mind, I ran a Lycoming T53-13 for 20 mins. without any visible oil pressure in order to save my a/c and my crew. That engine was still operating and making power when I touched down.

So you can bet your ass that any a/c engine you fly will operate outside the FM parameters that you see published. In the military it is what used to be termed "war emergency power"."

Thats right!... Iceman....my a/c and my crew!.....and you can bet your ass I have never heard of the word pretentious before.

[flyinphil]

For those who would dismiss an oil leak on a multi-engine jet.

http://www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de/publica ... 404.html#1.

Never say never!