Ice...How much is too much?

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FL_CH
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Ice...How much is too much?

Post by FL_CH »

Gents,

First of all, we're talking C172 here.

Like the old saying goes, I've taken a little from by bag of luck and put it into my experience bag.

On one of the recent flights, while maneuvering for approach (was doing the over-the-field-for-mid-downwind turn), the temperature dropped quite rapidly from +4 to -2 in -SHRA. By the time I established on downwind, the droplets on the windshield had already frozen, and I saw some ice accumulating on the wings as well. I opted for an expedited 180-degree-single-turn approach as opposed to a full circuit to get it down ASAP. Landed OK, since I estimate the exposure to -FZRA was from 1 to 2 minutes. Post-landing inspection revealed a thin and weak layer of ice on the leading edge. Lesson learned - FZRA = hell

This little incident got me wondering what I'd do if it wasn't near the airport. What if a 172 gets into icing conditions with no room to descend (seeking a higher temp).

My understanding is that the best way outta the ice is turning around and heading back to where I came from, but let's just assume this is unavail. Let's say ice is slowly accumulating on the wings, at what point should I really forget about everything else and just put it down wherever I can safely? :?:
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Post by hazatude »

Please stay in bed on icy days.
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Post by Hedley »

Everyone has a cow about a little ice on the wings, but what scares the hell out of me, flying an aircraft in icing which does not have the equipment, is the weird stuff, like:

- fuel vents icing over. Whoops, no more fuel
- crankcase vent icing over. Whoops, front prop seal blows, windshield is now covered in oil
- prop icing. Can you say vibration?
- landing blind may bother you. The windshield will certainly ice over, and you will have no forward visibility.
- tail icing, resulting in an uncontrollable pitchdown. What is your new stall speed?

Unless you know what you are doing, in an aircraft which is equipped for it, please stay out of ice. If nothing else, you will find that the drag of the ice decreases your speed, and causes you to descend even with full power. Don't go there.
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Post by Cat Driver »

The simple answer to your question is when air speed starts to degrade noticably land it rather than lawn dart it after loss of control.
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Post by trey kule »

Ice in Scotch....never.

But as to airplanes. As you know by your post, an airplane can fly with ice on it. The problem is that at some point, if the ice builds up, all sorts of evil things will happen. As it is impossible, even if you have read all the good meterological stuff to judge the potential severity or what you are flying through, if you do not have any de/anti ice equipment it is best to avoid ice altogether. If you play with it, you could well have a very bad experience.

My advice is to study up on what to do it ice starts to form....TC has some good stuff on it.

As to your story, usually when there is a warm to cold and freezing rain there is some cloud involved, but you mentioned you were doing a overhead VFR landing. Unusual
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Post by Doc »

Ice on a 172? Well, as Cat says, you're going to be Okay if the airspeed stays with you. We're assuming the 180 degree turn didn't work for you. Once the airspeed starts to bleed off, the real fun begins. I would suggest cracking a bit of flap. With the decaying airspeed, the airplane will want to fly in a slightly nose up attitude. You don't want this, as it will allow ice to form under the wing....bad thing...and a bit of flap can help prevent this. Next, you MUST land. Highway, byway, whatever, and you must do it while YOU have the control to pick the spot. Once it stops flying....it picks the spot, and you most likely will not like it's choice.
A big thing is, do not panic. I've had ice(more than I should have) on a Cherokee 180. They will fly. Just keep the speed up, and land. Then drink beer....lots of beer.
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FL_CH
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Post by FL_CH »

Thanks

Cat and Doc, exactly what I was looking for, merci :)

Let me be clear - I did not realise there was ice. I'd never fly into known icing condition - after all, I want to live. You can blame me for not expecting a +4 to -2 temperature drop over 4nm and 2 minutes.

Avoiding ice is a good advice, but it doesn't tell you what to do *if* you're unsuccessful following it.
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Post by Airtids »

Interesting post.

The day after I got my MIFR, some friends asked me to zip them over to YVR at o'dark thirty in the morning to catch a flight. Naturally, that spring morning the weather had gone to absolute crap, so there was a real incentive to fly IFR. However, discretion being the better part of valor, I elected to conduct the flight over (172) VFR, hopping island to island. Once there, however, I filed IFR for the solo return to YYJ. Flight back was hard IFR, in the dark, all the way. Everything was great, right up until getting onto the old Duncan 3 arrival (33DME arc?) when the windshield glazed right over, and by looking out the side window, I could see (watch, actually) the clear ice accumulating on the leading edge, and the strut!! I quickly admitted my situation to ATC and asked for vectors to intercept the ILS (short gate) rather than continue to fly the arc. The end of the approach was flown at about 2100rpm to stop the sink rate. When I got down, I taxied back to the hangar basically by brail, sweating bullets for what I figured the boss was going to say to me. 2-3 INCHES of ice on the leading edges of everything, including the nose-bowl. :shock:

Hour later, the boss came in, took one look at the plane strategically parked in the one corner of sunshine, with huge, shiney bits of ice laying all around it on the ground, and just started to shake his head. Looked around the base, and as I was the only one there (before 08:00) he called me into his office, and closed the door. Asked what had happened, how I had dealt with it, and what my pulse rate had been. After telling him the story, I sat there waiting for the lashing I was expecting. Instead, he said "OK, that's all I need to know", and sent me away. However, on the way out the door, he also let me know that a C172 will, in fact, carry a TON of ice. Years later, he admitted to me that he really didn't need to berate me any further, because it was obvious I'd learned my lesson, and I wasn't likely to do it again. :oops:

I subsequently got lots of experience flying different equipment in all kinds of icing conditions- learned lots. Learned why even aircraft with heated inlets and leading edges are only approved for dispatch into light or moderate ice. There isn't an aircraft on the planet (far as I know) that is approved for dispatch into severe icing. Learned that boots can, and often do, go u/s when you need them most. Learned how to select an altitude that will be favorable. Learned that there are a lot of things you can do to facilitate your flight in icing conditions. Most importantly, however, I learned to treat ice with a LOT of respect.

Yesterday, I was out with a student, and we started picking up light rime. We immediately returned to the airport, and I cancelled the next two bookings. Point made.
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Post by Blakey »

Lots of good "do this" things here. I have, however, found one big "don't do this" thing that people sometimes try, with terrible results. Do not try to climb out of an icing layer. You won't make it and you'll have to come back down thorough it sometime. The only time it makes sense to climb to avoid icing is if you're climbing to a cloud-free layer just above the altitude you're getting ice at. Descend, turn back or deviate from your course to get out of it but don't try to climb out of icing. By the time you realize that you can't, you may not have sufficient power and lift to carry out a controlled descent.
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Post by 32a »

01 Mar 85. Enroute CYQT - CYAM between layers but occasionally picking up ice, Blakey had this decision making conversation with his fellow pilot:

Q. How much ice can this Beech Sundowner handle?
A. I don't know. I saw a crashed C-172 once, it had a lot more ice than this.

They turned back to CYQT.
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Post by Airtids »

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Post by Blakey »

32a wrote:01 Mar 85. Enroute CYQT - CYAM between layers but occasionally picking up ice, Blakey had this decision making conversation with his fellow pilot:

Q. How much ice can this Beech Sundowner handle?
A. I don't know. I saw a crashed C-172 once, it had a lot more ice than this.

They turned back to CYQT.
Hey! You were suppposed to forget about that!

To tell the truth, the fellow who taught me not to try and climb out of icing was nicknamed "Marmaduke". I'm sure you recall the gent. Wouldn't listen to reason until the prop started shedding ice and threatening to shake the engine off the plane. I haven't forgotten that trip yet. Thank God there was an above-freezing layer below us!

Quiet night in the nerve center of SAR?
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Post by Morav »

Here is an Online Aircraft Icing Course


http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses.html[/url]

:D
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Post by looproll »

You certainly can climb to escape icing conditions. Just today I was picking up ice at FL200 so I climbed to FL220 and the icing conditions ended. Sometimes terrain can preclude a descent. Blakey, you should go though the NASA online icing course if you haven't already. Morav your link didn't quite turn out right.

http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses.html
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Post by Blakey »

looproll wrote:You certainly can climb to escape icing conditions. Just today I was picking up ice at FL200 so I climbed to FL220 and the icing conditions ended. Sometimes terrain can preclude a descent.
I guess you're right. So, if you encounter icing in a 172, at FL200, you may safely climb to FL220 to see if it's better there. Happy with that?
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Post by The Other Kind »

Unless there is something to indicate that conditions are worse above me, my first move is usually a climb to try and exit ice. Several good things can result such as breaking out on top or climbing into colder air with less moisture. If things deteriorate further you also have more altitude to trade for airspeed. If you are not asleep at the wheel, a climb should not cause the aircraft to depart from controlled flight. Once you descend you have severely limited your options if things do not improve.
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Post by Cat Driver »

I'm getting a little worried about this ice thing.

I have been flying in icing conditions since the late fifties all over the planet and can't recall many icing situations where you could safely climb a 172 high enough to escape the icing.

Icing comes in many flavours in many different conditions and areas of the world.

Last time I was in heavy icing that caused me to be unable to maintain altitude was in Cairo Egypt.

To stay alive in a 172 if you get caught in icing, turn back and land.

If it is getting to the point it is losing signifigant airspeed land anywhere.

Ice can accumulate to uncontrollable in minutes in the wrong conditions where a 172 can get caught....don't fu.k with it period.
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Post by Doc »

Where did some of you get your ice training? Comic books? Christ, we're all going to be going to funerals!
The Other Kind.....your first move is to CLIMB? In a 172?? Your second move might well be to a grave yard near you! Please kids, DO NOT DO THIS!!! TURN AROUND!!! GO BACK!
A guy asked a question about ice in a ONE SEVENTY-TWO!!!! Not a G-IV!
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Post by The Other Kind »

Of course I agree that turning around and landing immediately is the only course of action if ice is encountered in an aircraft that is not equipped for it.

Someone stated that you should 'never' climb to exit icing and that is just not true. I pictured a newbie reading that and being afraid to climb in a Navajo, etc because he remembers reading somewhere that you should NEVER climb to get out of it.

As far as where I got my 'ice training', I'm confident that I have as much or more time in those conditions than most people on this board, I'm just not one of those posters that has to constantly rhyme off my resume...

Cheers.
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Post by Doc »

Sorry you took it that way. Just trying to keep it to a 172.
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Post by RatherBeFlying »

If you fly into icing, then an immediate180 will get you out of it and likely allow you to get it melted off.

It's unusual to encounter icing just upon joining the circuit, but icing makes it time to seriously consider modifying the circuit or landing somewhere else.

If IFR in anything without certified icing protection, then you do need to tell the controller what you need and be ready to declare an emergency, preferably well before aircraft controllability becomes an issue.

A large number of icing accidents involve an ice laden a/c stalling on the approach; so, you may want to head off to a long runway and approach at 90 kt or so.
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Post by Tango01 »

Good stuff here. Its always good to learn from guys that experienced icing conditions at some point. Take their advice, they are still here!
Make sure you always check the weather before you go flying and get a good briefing. PIREPS are your best source of info, if available.

T01
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Post by ScudRunner »

Image
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Post by Airtids »

. wrote:Image
In this case, ANY amount of ice is too much ice. :lol:
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Post by niss »

YO STOP...COLLABORATE AND LISTEN.....ICE IS BACK WITH MY BRAND NEW INVENTION!!!!
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