I thought Bearskin hired people for the ramp? If so, doesn't their new ad make you feel all warm and fuzzy?
If they don't, then disregard.
Bearskin?
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore
Last week when they were looking for 1500hrs and guy's willing to pay 10K. Now they have dropped to 1200hrs. I turned it down simply because of there bond, no other reason. Great company to work for, but they should really rethink the structure of there Bond!!!!!
Pierre Maguire should have his larnyx ripped out! IDIOT!
Yup. If they would drop the maggot requirement of money up front, they could easily get guys with 2000+ hours. But they just will not admit to their stupidity! And, by dropping the cash requirement would be admitting they are wrong....and they'd rather hire low time guys, that they will never be able to upgrade.....it's gonna bite you in the ass Bearskin! Your senior guys will go to WestJet, and you'll have to park your airplanes...and the sooner the better. But you ain't listening.
I know two really good guys who told them to "pound sand" just because money is required up front. And still this bottom feeding, scum sucking requirement is in place. Boggles my mind.
I know two really good guys who told them to "pound sand" just because money is required up front. And still this bottom feeding, scum sucking requirement is in place. Boggles my mind.
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newalliance123
- Rank 1
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- Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:38 pm
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Doc,
The best resolution to this kind of bone head management is for all their Captains to go to the airlines.
Problem solved.
The best resolution to this kind of bone head management is for all their Captains to go to the airlines.
Problem solved.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Believe it or not, the reason Doc rabbits on about buy-a-job is because he cares that certain parts of this industry are just too screwed up and too many of you nimrods are getting exploited.
1 Working the ramp for years without actively being checked out
2 Flying right seat in single pilot a/c without being checked out
3 Paying up front for a job with a fly-by-night and taking an equity position in the company without getting any owner's rights.
Get it? If you get off on exploitation, just go ahead and ignore what I and Cat and Doc and others are trying to tell you.
Lots of people read these forums and never post, perhaps there is a proportion that do get it and these shoddy outfits will just go t.u. like so many before them have - just because you are thick as too short planks and don't get the message doesn't mean its not meant to help.
If you're tired of the message, stop reading it.
1 Working the ramp for years without actively being checked out
2 Flying right seat in single pilot a/c without being checked out
3 Paying up front for a job with a fly-by-night and taking an equity position in the company without getting any owner's rights.
Get it? If you get off on exploitation, just go ahead and ignore what I and Cat and Doc and others are trying to tell you.
Lots of people read these forums and never post, perhaps there is a proportion that do get it and these shoddy outfits will just go t.u. like so many before them have - just because you are thick as too short planks and don't get the message doesn't mean its not meant to help.
If you're tired of the message, stop reading it.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Hello???? Bit of a difference, Porter is a promissary note, meaning that if you leave before the term is up, you'll have to pay back whatever is remaining. Bearskin requires you to give them 10k up front. That ain't right.
Here's a great rule to live by: I get paid to work, I don't pay to work
Here's a great rule to live by: I get paid to work, I don't pay to work
I'll have to agree with Doc, Cat, and Xsbank on this one. Most of you have not been around long enough to understand the lengths companies will go to when it comes to getting cheap labour at no cost to themselves.
Yes it's been going on for a long time, yes it's an insult to have to put money up front, no you should not do it..
A lot of companies will want you to sign a promissary note like apparantly Porter does, what's wrong with that? You are not out one dime and it does add some protection to the company that you will not get your endorsement/PPC and immediatley bolt to somewhere else. It means they've spent a lot of money training you and would like you to at least stick around long enough to justify the expense.
If you pay up front, what happens if you blow the ride?? I guess you just learned an expensive lesson.. What if they decide to lay you off or fire you?? Do you get your money back? I'd bet not..
You people who think it's no big deal to spend your parents money to buy a seat in an airplane should take a long hard look at reality.. Or maybe your parents should..
If I ever had an f/o who had ever paid for a job, they would sit on their hands with their mouth shut...
Yes it's been going on for a long time, yes it's an insult to have to put money up front, no you should not do it..
A lot of companies will want you to sign a promissary note like apparantly Porter does, what's wrong with that? You are not out one dime and it does add some protection to the company that you will not get your endorsement/PPC and immediatley bolt to somewhere else. It means they've spent a lot of money training you and would like you to at least stick around long enough to justify the expense.
If you pay up front, what happens if you blow the ride?? I guess you just learned an expensive lesson.. What if they decide to lay you off or fire you?? Do you get your money back? I'd bet not..
You people who think it's no big deal to spend your parents money to buy a seat in an airplane should take a long hard look at reality.. Or maybe your parents should..
If I ever had an f/o who had ever paid for a job, they would sit on their hands with their mouth shut...
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
The root problem is that becoming a pilot is so easy that the industry ends up with an over abundance of low IQ people with a licence to be sodomized by unscroupilous operators.
Actually outside of the sad fact these combinations kill innocent people there is an upside to this.
Aviation is a market where crooked con artists can find a never ending supply of willing victims they can exploit that come with a license for exploitation.
Aviation in Canada is sort of the whorehouse of industry.
There you go Doc, hope that gets some of these guys off your back.
Actually outside of the sad fact these combinations kill innocent people there is an upside to this.
Aviation is a market where crooked con artists can find a never ending supply of willing victims they can exploit that come with a license for exploitation.
Aviation in Canada is sort of the whorehouse of industry.
There you go Doc, hope that gets some of these guys off your back.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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retired or retarded
- Rank 2
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:19 am
I am someone who reads this forum everyday but does not post very often, but paying for ratings is bullsh*t. I have been in this industry quite a while and yes the industry had been frozen for a long time but there are a lot of hard working honest people who have been willing to do what they have to, to work there way in. IE. work the dock or ramp or whatever.
Those who are paying to get rated are the reason that bus and taxi drivers make more money than someone who truly has the responsibility of peoples lives.
Not only that but what about the integrity once you are in the job. The lying and backstabbing to try to jump your way up is just as bad. What happened to integrity and ethics. Unfortunately I doubt that that part will ever change and is a different subject. Back to topic.
There is a big difference and nothing wrong with pro-rated bonds within a company at least that way with the way the industry is moving the employer can recover their costs and there is no guilt about moving ahead if you so choose. If you work the term as agreed the cost remains entirely with the company. Paying the full cost in advance is as I said bullsh*t. For starters it means that the best qualified person is not getting the job. Anyone with a few extra bucks will be flying some very expensive machinery, and as you said if they decide they no longer need you, you're out a bunch of money which at that point you deserve anyway. The biggest problem is again that as long as you are paying people to get a job with them they will also be paying lousy salaries instead of increasing the salaries with the demand of the industry. So instead of thinking about the easiest way to get a start in the industry try thinking about the direction of the industry and the rest of your career where you would rather not be eating KD.
Those who are paying to get rated are the reason that bus and taxi drivers make more money than someone who truly has the responsibility of peoples lives.
Not only that but what about the integrity once you are in the job. The lying and backstabbing to try to jump your way up is just as bad. What happened to integrity and ethics. Unfortunately I doubt that that part will ever change and is a different subject. Back to topic.
There is a big difference and nothing wrong with pro-rated bonds within a company at least that way with the way the industry is moving the employer can recover their costs and there is no guilt about moving ahead if you so choose. If you work the term as agreed the cost remains entirely with the company. Paying the full cost in advance is as I said bullsh*t. For starters it means that the best qualified person is not getting the job. Anyone with a few extra bucks will be flying some very expensive machinery, and as you said if they decide they no longer need you, you're out a bunch of money which at that point you deserve anyway. The biggest problem is again that as long as you are paying people to get a job with them they will also be paying lousy salaries instead of increasing the salaries with the demand of the industry. So instead of thinking about the easiest way to get a start in the industry try thinking about the direction of the industry and the rest of your career where you would rather not be eating KD.
You hit it bang on, that is the main problem. You need to write 3 exams and 4 flight test and you're done. It doesn't take much to become a 'pilot'. They should incorporate some parts of the European system were you have to write your ATPLs prior to getting a commercial license.Cat Driver wrote:The root problem is that becoming a pilot is so easy that the industry ends up with an over abundance of low IQ people with a licence to be sodomized by unscroupilous operators.
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neilaroberts
- Rank 2
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- Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:42 pm
I thought Bearskin's was a pro-rated bond and you get it back with interest at the end of the 2 year period. Please correct me if I am wrong.
If we are going to debate this, lets be clear. Some are complaining about paying for training others are saying training bonds. The two are different beasts, are they not?
If we are going to debate this, lets be clear. Some are complaining about paying for training others are saying training bonds. The two are different beasts, are they not?
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retired or retarded
- Rank 2
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- Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:19 am
I am not familiar with bearskins policy, am just going by what is being said. But you do not pay your own money upfront on a bond, only if you were to leave before the contract you agreed upon would be completed and that should be pro-rated. Anything less than that and you are selling yourself short. With the demand in the market at this time some companies are even finding themselves having to drop the bond to even get anyone to come. The length of the bond is also something you should look at right now depending on what type of rating you are getting. You have already payed for your education like any other industry now you should be working for your experience not paying for it.
Localizer. Sorry you feel that way. But I really don't care. Bearskin is finding it harder to find qualified pilots. We see this because the keep lowering their time requirements. Why? Because of their up front money policy. Simple. At least it id for those of us with double digit IQ's. One day soon, they loose a stack of captains (it happened to them before BTW) and they'll have no co-pilots they can upgrade. Until then, the captains they have now, who are used to working with new hires with a couple of thousand hours in Navajos etc. will become "on the job flying instructors"! That can't help but to effect safety in the long run. This in turn will erode public confidence. While it's true, I have a big problem with pilots who "buy" their jobs, I have an even bigger problem with the companies that require them to do so.
Nielaroberts, a pro rated training bond would be an agreement between the company and the pilot, where the pilot agrees to pay a certain amount back to the company, if he leaves within a certain time frame. The longer into that time frame, the less he would be required to pay back. I have no problem with this. It's becoming fairly normal.
Bearskin is taking money from pilots up front....this is NOT a bond! It IS buying a job...
Nielaroberts, a pro rated training bond would be an agreement between the company and the pilot, where the pilot agrees to pay a certain amount back to the company, if he leaves within a certain time frame. The longer into that time frame, the less he would be required to pay back. I have no problem with this. It's becoming fairly normal.
Bearskin is taking money from pilots up front....this is NOT a bond! It IS buying a job...
Cute idea, but "someone currently employed there" would have to "see the light", and since that person had to pay the up front money....well you see this won't work....
And a new hire isn't a member of ALPA until AFTER his wallet has already taken a 10K hit. Therefore, why would ALPA give a rat's ass?
And a new hire isn't a member of ALPA until AFTER his wallet has already taken a 10K hit. Therefore, why would ALPA give a rat's ass?
Short bus ..... and gang.
Folks .... Do you honestly believe there is a difference between a promissary note and a bond (with the money up front)???? ... THEY ARE THE SAMETHING! If you complete your contract of 2 yrs you get the money back in both senerio's. The only difference is the company wanting the money up front, is saving themselves the court cost of fighting for the money later. Promissary notes, bonds .. neither is right, but a fact of reality and to hightlight it one more time .. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.
I've hear that crap about "oh its only a promissary note" before, either way its not your money anymore. (until you full-fill the contract)
Doc ... taking the money up front or paying it later is again ... the same damn thing. I can't honestly believe that you'd think otherwise. But if you'd like to convince me otherwise that there is a difference .. giv'er a go.
Cheers,
Loc
Folks .... Do you honestly believe there is a difference between a promissary note and a bond (with the money up front)???? ... THEY ARE THE SAMETHING! If you complete your contract of 2 yrs you get the money back in both senerio's. The only difference is the company wanting the money up front, is saving themselves the court cost of fighting for the money later. Promissary notes, bonds .. neither is right, but a fact of reality and to hightlight it one more time .. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.
I've hear that crap about "oh its only a promissary note" before, either way its not your money anymore. (until you full-fill the contract)
Doc ... taking the money up front or paying it later is again ... the same damn thing. I can't honestly believe that you'd think otherwise. But if you'd like to convince me otherwise that there is a difference .. giv'er a go.
Cheers,
Loc
