Just wondering what you folks tell potential employers when you turn down there offers due to the bond(money up front, promisary note.) or if you actually have said thanks but no thanks.
Just from reading the voyageur thread there seems to be alot of angry folks in the area so I was wondering how many have said something.
Myself, money up front is a joke. I signed on with a promisary note as I don't think that these are to bad seeing as it is more on your word so.
Rejecting Bonds
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore
Be kind of a hoot to go to an interview with Voyageur! Then, when they bring up the subject of "buying" the job, you could roll off your chair howling your ass off, pointing to the total TWIT that brought the subject up and giggling like a school girl as you stagger out the door!
If you want this little red rooster in your airplane, you pay me, I don't pay you! Any questions?
If you want this little red rooster in your airplane, you pay me, I don't pay you! Any questions?
I know I'm gonna get crucified here....
Being in a position to see this one from both sides of the fence, I have to say I can see why some operators feel they need a bond. Right now especially, with soooo much movement, the cost of crew training has skyrocketed. But, the cost of the product (flying) to the consumer hasn't really changed. In fact, the public seems even more intent that airfare should be less. (several threads recently have pointed out that ya get what ya pay for) This squeezes the bottom line uncomfortably.
Many of you are probably drumming your chests and saying something like "but I'm a damn good pilot and any company would be luck to have me, and why should the pilots foot the cut in bottom line" Perhaps you are. And referring to yet another recent thread (canjet, and why the people get laid off that do, as well as why doesn't everyone in the company know what the bosses are up to) the bosses are supposed to make sure the company keeps going, or none of us have a job. How many of you lately have been with a company less than a year or less than a year after upgrade and moved on? How much notice did you give? Were you upfront with either your ops manager or cp about your plans ( before you got the call for that interview you'd been hoping for)? And yes, I've heard the "I can't tell them that I'm looking to move on, they'll fire me now/cut my hours/etc" rhetoric. Puleeze. How long (realistically) do you think it takes to find a qualified (not trained on type - qualified for the position- that also means that the cp and ops man. are comfortable enough with the person to sleep at night) pilot to fill your shoes? Wait, you're god's gift to aviation, there isn't anyone!
A fairly recent thread on the whole bonds/ promisary notes thing had a couple of very interesting and true comments - if we can't act professionally, we aren't gonna get treated that way. It goes both ways. Yes, there are operators out there who use the bond thing as a cash flow, if not cash cow. But there are also operators who are just trying to cover the increase in cost and headaches. If we as a group got our shit together, and acted responsibly and professionally, there'd be a lot fewer bonds around. All I've asked for is that if I'm going to invest time, effort and money into making you part of the company, I'd like to see you return that by investing your time and effort into being the best employee you can, and by sticking around a reasonable length of time (usually a year) and being up front with your plans, so I can plan for the best interest of the company that's paying you! (and your fellow pilots, but I've forgotten, we eat our young, you could care less about your fellow flier, so long as you're ok)
On the switch side, having investigated several positions for myself, I did tell the one company that asked for it that I would not go to the bank/bring them cash, but would sign an agreement to stay for a set period of time, and if I couldn't meet that commitment for some unforeseeable reason, would prorate a realistic cost of training, and give at least a month's notice. (they agreed, but the position was not one that worked for me at the time) The other positions never mentioned it (although one apologized for their low starting salary).
Why should we agree to anything? we shouldn't have to, but economic reality says that it costs approx. $2,775 direct flying costs plus training captain time + 3 days of a training pilot's time for groundschool, plus lost revenue time from having qualified crew tied up training un-qualified crew, plus potentially lost revenue time when there wasn't crew available because someone left with short notice - this just for a piston twin. Magnify that for a turbo-prop, etc.
Yes, in a perfect world we'd all get paid $60,000 to fly a navajo, and $80,000+ for a turbo prop, and $90,000 to start at Jazz. But then the product would cost lots more, less people would buy it, and they're be fewer jobs. Over simpilfied? sure. But one thing isn't - act like the professionals you're all screaming that you are, and this kind of thing would only exist for really scummy operators that use it to enhance, not hold, their bottom line.
My 50 cents.[/i]
Being in a position to see this one from both sides of the fence, I have to say I can see why some operators feel they need a bond. Right now especially, with soooo much movement, the cost of crew training has skyrocketed. But, the cost of the product (flying) to the consumer hasn't really changed. In fact, the public seems even more intent that airfare should be less. (several threads recently have pointed out that ya get what ya pay for) This squeezes the bottom line uncomfortably.
Many of you are probably drumming your chests and saying something like "but I'm a damn good pilot and any company would be luck to have me, and why should the pilots foot the cut in bottom line" Perhaps you are. And referring to yet another recent thread (canjet, and why the people get laid off that do, as well as why doesn't everyone in the company know what the bosses are up to) the bosses are supposed to make sure the company keeps going, or none of us have a job. How many of you lately have been with a company less than a year or less than a year after upgrade and moved on? How much notice did you give? Were you upfront with either your ops manager or cp about your plans ( before you got the call for that interview you'd been hoping for)? And yes, I've heard the "I can't tell them that I'm looking to move on, they'll fire me now/cut my hours/etc" rhetoric. Puleeze. How long (realistically) do you think it takes to find a qualified (not trained on type - qualified for the position- that also means that the cp and ops man. are comfortable enough with the person to sleep at night) pilot to fill your shoes? Wait, you're god's gift to aviation, there isn't anyone!
A fairly recent thread on the whole bonds/ promisary notes thing had a couple of very interesting and true comments - if we can't act professionally, we aren't gonna get treated that way. It goes both ways. Yes, there are operators out there who use the bond thing as a cash flow, if not cash cow. But there are also operators who are just trying to cover the increase in cost and headaches. If we as a group got our shit together, and acted responsibly and professionally, there'd be a lot fewer bonds around. All I've asked for is that if I'm going to invest time, effort and money into making you part of the company, I'd like to see you return that by investing your time and effort into being the best employee you can, and by sticking around a reasonable length of time (usually a year) and being up front with your plans, so I can plan for the best interest of the company that's paying you! (and your fellow pilots, but I've forgotten, we eat our young, you could care less about your fellow flier, so long as you're ok)
On the switch side, having investigated several positions for myself, I did tell the one company that asked for it that I would not go to the bank/bring them cash, but would sign an agreement to stay for a set period of time, and if I couldn't meet that commitment for some unforeseeable reason, would prorate a realistic cost of training, and give at least a month's notice. (they agreed, but the position was not one that worked for me at the time) The other positions never mentioned it (although one apologized for their low starting salary).
Why should we agree to anything? we shouldn't have to, but economic reality says that it costs approx. $2,775 direct flying costs plus training captain time + 3 days of a training pilot's time for groundschool, plus lost revenue time from having qualified crew tied up training un-qualified crew, plus potentially lost revenue time when there wasn't crew available because someone left with short notice - this just for a piston twin. Magnify that for a turbo-prop, etc.
Yes, in a perfect world we'd all get paid $60,000 to fly a navajo, and $80,000+ for a turbo prop, and $90,000 to start at Jazz. But then the product would cost lots more, less people would buy it, and they're be fewer jobs. Over simpilfied? sure. But one thing isn't - act like the professionals you're all screaming that you are, and this kind of thing would only exist for really scummy operators that use it to enhance, not hold, their bottom line.
My 50 cents.[/i]
"oh, I have slipped.." into what, we're not sure
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Howitzer
- Rank 4
- Posts: 241
- Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 3:32 pm
- Location: north south and everywhere in between
Professionalism is a two way street my friend. How bout those four or five years where movement was minimal? Operators most likey spent less in training costs in those few years than in a long time, and what happend? Lots of pilots had job wages cut because of the "there are 10 guys out there that would love to have your job right now" statement. Money up front is BS, if you want to sign a reasonable paper bond, ie cost and term, then i think that's ok. Don't however cut my wages in that time, or take away holidays, or treat me worse, because you think i'm "locked in".
Howitzer - I never said professionalism was only a one way street, in fact I said it goes both ways. I also stated that there are some scummy operators who mis-use the bond thing to enhance their bottom line, not just hold it (cover increased costs). And yes, training costs were down because there wasn't much movement. (sidenote- no movement = poor economic times = less business) Same thing applies- scummier operators will always use whatever as an excuse to hurt people. However, I still say that if we act professionally, the better operators will treat us professionally.
I am in full agreement with you on your last statement - Money up front is BS, if you want to sign a reasonable paper bond, ie cost and term, then i think that's ok. Don't however cut my wages in that time, or take away holidays, or treat me worse, because you think i'm "locked in".
That would be acting unprofessionally on the company's part.
I am in full agreement with you on your last statement - Money up front is BS, if you want to sign a reasonable paper bond, ie cost and term, then i think that's ok. Don't however cut my wages in that time, or take away holidays, or treat me worse, because you think i'm "locked in".
That would be acting unprofessionally on the company's part.
"oh, I have slipped.." into what, we're not sure
You need a bond to stay in business? You shouldn't be in business. Training is a cost of doing business. (I'm talking money up front here BTW) Be selective who you hire. Treat them well, and guess what? They'll stick around for a year without a bond of any kind. Ask for money up front, and your new hires (the ones stupid enough to give you cash in the first place) will never respect you. Or your company. I'm not just "blowing smoke" here. I turned down a REALLY good job to stay with a company that had just sent me to FSI on a Caravan. I said I'd stay...and I did. Because these guys treated me well.
You will get to a point where the only guys who will even show up for an interview will be guys with 500 hours. And there's no place for them to go anyway, so you're "swinging at windmills" here. A year from now, you may loose a bunch of your captains, then what are you going to? Give the guys left seats with 750-1000 hours? Not bloody likely! You need to have your crews respect you....and any pilot who has "lined" your pockets will NEVER respect you!
You will get to a point where the only guys who will even show up for an interview will be guys with 500 hours. And there's no place for them to go anyway, so you're "swinging at windmills" here. A year from now, you may loose a bunch of your captains, then what are you going to? Give the guys left seats with 750-1000 hours? Not bloody likely! You need to have your crews respect you....and any pilot who has "lined" your pockets will NEVER respect you!
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sky's the limit
- Rank Moderator
- Posts: 4614
- Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:38 am
- Location: Now where's the starter button on this thing???
First off, money up front for a job is extortion. Those who accept positions with those terms, deserve what they get, as do those who offer the positions in the first place.
Second. The same CP's, Op's Managers and Owners who grumble about the cost of training pilots, are the same people who are happy to open the door to you, the Pre-trained, PPC'd/Type Rated pilot. The hippocracy of this whole argument is stunning.
STL
Second. The same CP's, Op's Managers and Owners who grumble about the cost of training pilots, are the same people who are happy to open the door to you, the Pre-trained, PPC'd/Type Rated pilot. The hippocracy of this whole argument is stunning.
STL
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Bonds are a no-no. Especially now!
Promisory note, I can go along with, but the contract has to be cristal-clear and I get professional, legal help to have it written so that I'm happy.
Transferable PPC, is there another country on the planet that has that? Seriously, I really wonder. I think many shady operators would be out of business right there if you took that away.
Promisory note, I can go along with, but the contract has to be cristal-clear and I get professional, legal help to have it written so that I'm happy.
Transferable PPC, is there another country on the planet that has that? Seriously, I really wonder. I think many shady operators would be out of business right there if you took that away.
No Brakes
"Flying is simple. You just throw yourself at the ground and miss." Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy
"Flying is simple. You just throw yourself at the ground and miss." Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy
Good post BBB.
A question for all: what about the fact that most places with no bond have an insultingly low starting salary? That in itself is buying the job because the low wages pay for the training costs anyway. If a person puts in a reasonalble amount of time (over six months) then the costs are covered, imho.
I think it was Cat Driver that suggested a while back that if a company hires someone with a current ppc then said company should be legally responsible to pay the remaining bond for said pilot. I think that's a great idea - especially now with so many companies looking for pilots with current ppcs.
$0.02
A question for all: what about the fact that most places with no bond have an insultingly low starting salary? That in itself is buying the job because the low wages pay for the training costs anyway. If a person puts in a reasonalble amount of time (over six months) then the costs are covered, imho.
I think it was Cat Driver that suggested a while back that if a company hires someone with a current ppc then said company should be legally responsible to pay the remaining bond for said pilot. I think that's a great idea - especially now with so many companies looking for pilots with current ppcs.
$0.02
