Aerocourse ATP Book Q

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:44 am

I was wondering if someone could help me out with the answers to a few questions out of the aerocourse workbook.

1. Perf W&B chapter... questions 26-29. They deal with the Dash 8 takeoff performance chart. I get the correct answer for 26, but when I use the same method to calculate it for 27-29, I dont get the right answer.

2. Flight Ops chapter....questions 21-22. Same performance chart for the Dash 8, now asking to calc the min torque. For 21, they dont even mention which runway is in use. I cant figure out how to use the chart.

3. Flight Ops chapter... question 123. The holdover time given in the chart is 3-6 minutes. The question asks for the "maximum" time before a pre-takeoff inspection is required. The correct answer is 3 minutes, but I dont see why it cant be 6 minutes.

Thanks for the help.

Edo · Post by **Edo** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:30 pm

Check what edition of the book you have The charts was published incorrectly in the 4th edition

http://aerocourse.com/atpl.html there is a link to a pdf of the correct chart near the bottom

I am doing self study for the exams, this section is killing me !

Grey_Wolf · Post by **Grey_Wolf** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:57 pm

Chris & Edo ... Im also in Self-Study

Chris, It seems that you may have the 3rd Ed. for I Have the 4th and the number to those questions don't seem to match up.

- Flt Ops 123, for me it's 130. And I would guess 6 mins holdover before pre-flt inspection required as well. Couldn't explain 3 minutes, other than it's an approx range which means that the effects last for 3 minutes and may go longer but should be checked after the 3 mins is up?

- Flt Ops 21-22 for me it's 25-26, and the charts are misprinted as Edo mentionned, revised charts avail at aerocourse.com website.
http://www.aerocourse.com/atpl.html.
As for solving ... let me know, im in the dark as well.

- W & B 26-29, i got 28-31, and these charts are correct in the 4th Ed.
For solving .... find HW or TW component on runway. find temp, follow to runway, and apply "wind correction", then "altimeter correction"

Example: Flap 15, Wind 100@9, QNH 29.98, Temp 30'C

Runway 15 & 33 avail. HW or TW is 7.5 Kts, Weight at 30'C for 15=31870, and for rwy 33=34200

so .... under notes =25lbs/kt HW if runway 15, and +55lns/kts if rwy 33
if TW then -140lbs/kt on 15, -60lbs/kt if 33

Rwy 15 : 31870+(7.5x25) = 31968
Rwy 33 : 34200-(7.5x60) = 33750 <--- Correct Answer

Hope it helps, PM for more info

Btw, what else are you using to study besides the following:

- Air Command Weather + Workbook
- AIM
- Turbine Pilot's Manual
- Fly The Wing
- Canadian Instrument Workbook
- FTGU
- ATPL Workbook

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:45 am

Thanks for the responses. As far as the study material goes, I am just using the aerocourse workbook with reference to the CARs, ACWM, FTGU, AIM, and the Turbine Pilot's manual.

Edo · Post by **Edo** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:27 am

I have the aerocourse workbook. Pro's seminar manuals and supplements. I refer to my notes from the aerocourse seminar as well.

I also got the test book to try a few sample exams.

SayAgain · Post by **SayAgain** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:54 am

Just wondering what the general consensus is on the availble study material out there.

How do the aerocourse books compare to the material put out by Pro Ifr and to that of ...?

Any sugestions on which are better or perhaps a combination is the answer?

Thanks

Edo · Post by **Edo** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:47 pm

Grey_Wolf wrote:
- Flt Ops 21-22 for me it's 25-26, and the charts are misprinted as Edo mentionned, revised charts avail at aerocourse.com website.
http://www.aerocourse.com/atpl.html.
As for solving ... let me know, im in the dark as well.

- W & B 26-29, i got 28-31, and these charts are correct in the 4th Ed.
For solving .... find HW or TW component on runway. find temp, follow to runway, and apply "wind correction", then "altimeter correction"

W&B #31 in the 4th edition

I can only get the answer of 32,490 if I use the old chart - was it the same for you?

Im going onto flt ops 25/26 using the new chart - i will let you know

edited - yep no idea on those two - hope they aren't on the exam without an example to work from.

Grey_Wolf · Post by **Grey_Wolf** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:55 pm

Edo,

This One? Q.31 on page 5-19 of 4th Ed.

Flap 15
Winds 150/12
QNH 29.76"
Temp 27'C

Answers
A) 33,600
B) 33,520
C) 33,200
D) 33,020 <--Correct according to book

To solve using "old chart":

1. Winds HW or TW = 12

2. QNH is off by .16" = 5.40mb = subtract 270 lbs

29.76"Hg = 1007.8 mb
29.92"Hg = 1013.2 mb

3. Interpolate between 26'C and 28'C on both runways

26'C = 33,500 (Rwy 15) and 34,500 (Rwy 33)
28'C = 32,740 (15) and 34,500 (33)

27'C = 33,120 & 34,500

so

33,120 + 12x25 (winds) - 270 (QNH) = 33,150
or
34,500 - 12x60 - 270 = 33,930

********
That's what I get ..... which is not correct, However, IF I use the new chart on their site
*******
Conditions:

QNH less than 29.92", - 50 lbs/ .02"Hg
HW +25 (rwy 15), + 55 (33)
TW - 140 (15), - 75 (33)
max TW 10 kts

Then I would get ... ( thank god the weights are the same at 26'C & 28'C )

27'C = 33,120 & 34,500

so

29.92 - 29.76 = .16 = -50x8 = -400lbs

33,120 + 12x25 (HW) - 400 = 33,020 <-- Correct answer in the book
or
34,500 - 10x75 (TW, max 10 kts) - 400 = 33,350

BINGO !!! Always nice to use the correct chart ... otherwise this confusion
happens

Hope it helped !!!

Grey_Wolf · Post by **Grey_Wolf** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:58 pm

ATPL workbook update

DASH 8 performance chart

In the 4th edition of the ATPL workbook, the DASH 8 ATOG chart that affects computing the answers to questions 30 and 31 was inadvertently inserted as an older version. The new version of that chart is available here on the Web site.

To set the record straight, this is an actual Dash 8 take off performance chart. It was compiled by using the seven performance charts from the Dash 8 100 performance manual and obstacles/topography for Castlegar, B.C. This table has been used in line operations by Canadian Regional Airlines for many years and it is the type of operational chart that is or has been used by virtually every airline in the world for all transport category aircraft.

To understand how to work thru this chart or one’s similar to it, you have to have a good understanding of take off performance including the runway environment and the climb segments. We teach how to work thru the questions after an hour and half presentation on the material. Questions 28 and 29 are simple and straightforward but questions 30 and 31 are quite difficult and require a good working knowledge of large aircraft performance. As a hint for Q30, you have to look at both runway and airborne factors of the chart. For Q31, you have to look at the wind and altimeter corrections.

http://www.aerocourse.com/atpl.html

As for Q.25 & Q.26 I asked a few instructors with their AA license, they pointed out that the temperature and runway heading for takeoff is a red herring (although its recommended to take-off and land with wind, not required .... yeah that threw me off).

You must look at the weights and find the one that is lower than your actual weight to you without going over. (darn that almost sounds like the Bob Barker

)

So for Q.25, max weight is 30,500 ... on chart read on "42'C" line, rwy 33 weight is 30,990 so read left till get torque limit, which is 77.2%

Same for Q.26, max weight is 33,150 ... on chart read on "32'C" line for rwy 15, weight is 30,840 which reads out to 84.1%.

Edo · Post by **Edo** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:16 am

Grey_Wolf wrote:Edo,

This One? Q.31 on page 5-19 of 4th Ed.

Flap 15
Winds 150/12
QNH 29.76"
Temp 27'C

Answers
A) 33,600
B) 33,520
C) 33,200
D) 33,020 <--Correct according to book

######### The question is the same but my answers look like this:

a) 33,500
b) 33,220
c) 32,890
d) 32490 <- correct answer

############################################

To solve using "old chart":

1. Winds HW or TW = 12

2. QNH is off by .16" = 5.40mb = subtract 270 lbs

29.76"Hg = 1007.8 mb
29.92"Hg = 1013.2 mb

#########################################

I agee QNH is off by .16 - the charts says to subtract 50 lbs for each .02 in error (in my book anyway)

so 8 units of .02 8* 50 lbs = -400 lbs

##########################################
3. Interpolate between 26'C and 28'C on both runways

26'C = 33,500 (Rwy 15) and 34,500 (Rwy 33)
28'C = 32,740 (15) and 34,500 (33)

27'C = 33,120 & 34,500

so

33,120 + 12x25 (winds) - 270 (QNH) = 33,150
or
34,500 - 12x60 - 270 = 33,930

--- my wind factoe for 33 is 55 lbs/knot----- Both charts----
############################################
My answer -

Dont even bother using rwy 33 - max tailwind is 10 kts (from chart) and 33 has 12kts.

Rwy 15

chart from book NOT WEBSITE

26 C - 32,860
27 C - 32,320 32,590

Corrections 12 kts h/w + 25 lbs per knot = + 300
altimiter correction 50 lbs per .02 (.16) = -400 lbs

32,590 +300 - 400 = 32,490

##############################################

********
That's what I get ..... which is not correct, However, IF I use the new chart on their site
*******
Conditions:

QNH less than 29.92", - 50 lbs/ .02"Hg
HW +25 (rwy 15), + 55 (33)
TW - 140 (15), - 75 (33)
max TW 10 kts

Then I would get ... ( thank god the weights are the same at 26'C & 28'C )

27'C = 33,120 & 34,500

so

29.92 - 29.76 = .16 = -50x8 = -400lbs

33,120 + 12x25 (HW) - 400 = 33,020 <-- Correct answer in the book
or
34,500 - 10x75 (TW, max 10 kts) - 400 = 33,350

BINGO !!! Always nice to use the correct chart ... otherwise this confusion
happens

Hope it helped !!!

This would be a lot easier to comapre if Aerocourse could publish the book correctly twice in a row

mine is the 4th edition 2006-3 as listed in the cover.
It looks like there are no less than 3 versions of this question.

For what its worth I see we both have the process down right.

Now i'm going to tackle the other section with the bob barker approach.

After all time I have spent of this it had better be on the freaking exam.

Edo · Post by **Edo** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:40 am

I got Q 25 and 26 - thanks

26 was a little tougher - the limiting factor is the climb limits.

dolly_dice · Post by **dolly_dice** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:55 am

Disregard this post, can't figure out how to delete it or why my message posted 8 times.

dolly_dice · Post by **dolly_dice** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:55 am

Same with this one...

dolly_dice · Post by **dolly_dice** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:56 am

And this one...

dolly_dice · Post by **dolly_dice** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:57 am

Son of a...

dolly_dice · Post by **dolly_dice** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:57 am

Keep going...

dolly_dice · Post by **dolly_dice** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:58 am

Someone do everyone a favour and tell me how to delete these?

dolly_dice · Post by **dolly_dice** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:01 am

Next...

dolly_dice · Post by **dolly_dice** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:03 am

In regards to Flight Ops Question #123, refer to the following web page for a complete 34 page PDF file wich will answer your question.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/tdc/projects/air/f/tables.htm

At the bottom of the page click where it says "Download Tables Here."

In short, a pre-take off inspection is only deemed necessary when the time elapsed falls within the applicable HOT cell for precipitation, rate, etc. This is true only for ANTI-ICE fluids, and does not apply to Type 1 De-Ice fluids, in which case a pre-take off external inspection is deemed necessary at all times. For example:

If the time in the applicable HOT table is 30-55 mins, then a pre-take off inspection, within 5 mins prior to departure, is only deemed necessary if the time elapsed is greater than 30 mins, assuming factors such as jet blast etc., which would reduce the HOT time, have been considered by the PIC. So, it would be said that the MAXIMUM time before a pre-take off inspection is required would be 30 mins. In fact, if you read the remarks on the bottom of an HOT table, you'll find it says:

"THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE DECISION CRITERIA TIME IS THE SHORTEST TIME WITHIN THE APPLICABLE HOLDOVER TIME TABLE CELL."

Hope this helps.

dolly_dice · Post by **dolly_dice** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:06 am

Finally!!!