What a machine II

[scubasteve]

Well I watched the end of the Arrow again last night...Now being a relative youngster, I wasn't alive when this a/c was built but I'm curious how much of that movie is truth. I get upset that it was cancelled b/c if it really was able to perform at the standards set out for it, I believe it might still be flying today in some capacity. Not just that...Even if the government decided to cancel the program, why dewtry everything?? The Arrow was the beginning of modern computerized a/c. The delta wing was a first. And then to see all the engineers go on to NASA and run the Gemini and Apollo programs...33 engineers in all, others to build the Concorde, the Beaver, and the Otter, the test pilot to become the chief test pilot for Lockheed!!! What Canada could have done with those human resources!

So I was wondering...I know my dad used to see it on test flights out by Trenton...and my neighbour used to fly Canucks and had an Arrow fly by him once (thought it was a UFO) but is there any older fellas out there who have any stories or know any details of the Arrow. Its my dream to see one built to original specs just to see what it really was capable of, and maybe a second built with todays technology.

[CD]

Great website here:

Avro Arrow

[oldtimer]

I was just starting my aviation career when the Arrow project was cancelled and one thing to remember is conditions were different then than now so it would be difficult to put year 1959 ideas into year 2004 context. I personally think the Arrow may have been a disaster. How can a company with almost no eperience in supersonic airplanes think they could design a big jet. They did a remarkable job but I think the Arrow would have been an economical disaster as it aged. What was a big loss was the aviation expertise that went south. An even bigger disapointment was dropping the Avro Jetliner. If we could have gotten rid of that goofy old Howard Hughes and got some airline and money people in on the project, we may have had a winner. Unfortunatly, we still have to contend with the USA first attitude with our neighbors to the south. Still happens with the CL215, CL415. Remember that Canadians do not like to build killing machines. Just remember when they put guns and rockets on the Tudor. You would have thought someone shat in the PMO's office floor!!!
I still think many Canadians are almost embarassed to hear and read about the exploits of the Canadian military in WW11. Just look at the Canadian Legion and how much money is spent on war memorials and remembering our war dead. Everone sheds a tear on Nov 11 and that is it. Is it good or bad? you decide. That is just being a Canadian.

[Tubthumper]

Though the Arrow was a great achievement, it only had real potential as a Cold War era interceptor, fighting BVR only (beyond visual range) or perhaps to be used as a bomber. I think because of it's size it would have failed horribly as a tactical fighter. The Vietnam war showed just how well the large interceptors did against smaller fighters in a visual fight. Ahem.... anyway, I think the Arrow should have gone forward then, but there's no way it would still be in service today. It definately would have opened more doors for our designers to carry on with newer designs, though. Diefenbaker wasn't the only one to thank for the outcome, gov't attitudes towards our military haven't changed since WW2; our airforce didn't get equipped with P-51s until after the war when EVERYONE else was getting rid of them along with other prop fighters to get jets!

[w squared]

I'd like to agree with everything Tubthumper said...except about being a great acheivement...not to belittle the work that was done on it, but if you look at what a great acheivement the Arrow COULD have been, what is was/is falls short.

Yes, the arrow would have made a lousy tactical fighter. But it would have made a great interceptor. But look at the F-14...that's an interceptor with a history of getting shoehorned into the tactiacal fighter role. I don't want to get into a p@ssing conest debating the merits of various airframes...I just want to establish that at the time the Arrow was concieved and designed, the supersonic interceptor was something in demand. An Arrow equipped with long-range missiles would have been well-equipped to strike at TU-95's over Canada's northern regions - exactly what it was intended to do.

There's no shortage of other aircraft (Convair Delta Dagger, Delta Dart, etc.) that were designed for the same role. Without getting into the aforementioned p@ssing contest, I don't think that any of them would have been more capable than the Arrow. And slagging it due to misson limitations isn't fair either...it was a full (aircraft) generation before multi-role fighters of that complexity were at the same point of development. Yes, there were aircraft that could function multi-role (F-86, F-100)...but as I recall, it wasn't until the advent of the F-4 that the combination of true BVR interception and tactical fighter abilities appeared. Even then, it took a while for the ACM side of the F-4's capablities to come to the fore (and for the USAF to figure out that yes, they did need a cannon!)

So what am I saying? Don't say that the Arrow was the ultimate fighter of the 20th century...but don't chalk it up as having been a clunker, either. And be aware that the cancellation of the project did cause a sustantial brain drain in Canada...engineers that might have otherwise stayed and been part of a strong high-performance aerospace industry.

My $0.02

[two green]

After reading the replies on this subject I believe that I must reply. I wrote a university paper on the Arrow a few years back, I will not subject you to the entire paper only a few points as best as I can argue them. Firstly, we must view the arrow through the lens of the 1950's and not the 2000's. The arrow was designed to fulfill a specific purpose. That purpose was to defend Strategic Air Command bomber bases. The only nuclear detterent at the time was Gen. Lemay's B-36's , B-47's etc. ICBM's, and SLBM's were not available during the late 50's. The arrow was designed to intercept Soviet bombers as far away from these bases as possible. It would have succeeded magnificantly. Secondly, the arrow was not cancelled because it was a poor design, but rather because it was TOO GOOD. One must remember that the US had no spy satellites at this time. Their only effective means of keeping an eye on the Soviets was through A/c. Thus the CIA spent BILLIONS of 1950's money on the Top SEcret U2. This A/C was so secret that only a handful of people in the entire US knew it existed. It was so secret that even cabinet ministers in Eisenhauers gov. did not know about it. There was the perceived bomber gap between the west and east that worried the US. So small Canada develops an interceptor that renders the U2 program obselete. It was bound to fail for national security reasons. Unfortunately soon after thje Soviets made the u2 obsolete when they shot down Powers. However by then the arrow had already been scrapped.

[Driving Rain]

When the Arrow was scrapped my dad was one of those engineers that had to go south of the border. I was 9 years old at the time. I remember "Black Friday" and the stress it caused my parents. It was the first and only time I saw my mother and father cry together.

We moved to Buffalo NY. and he started work at Bell Aircraft. It was a bitter pill to swallow. We stayed there for a year and when Douglas Aircraft opened it's doors building DC9 components in Malton we came back home.

My dad agrees with "Oldtimer" the cancellation of the Jet Liner was a major blow to the Avro company. The Jet liner was the 2nd jet airliner to fly in the world only 7 days after the DeHaviland Comet in GB and 10 years before the 707, it would have given Canada a leg up in the civilian aircraft markets. The good ol USA passed several laws restricting it's deployment and as a result the customers evaporated. The Jet Liner was developed and built without any government money and it just about broke the company then.

The other great achievement in the Arrow program was the Orenda Iroquois engine. It never flew in the Arrow but its technology was shared with the Brits and the Americans and the innovations it spawned are with us today.

My fondest memory of that time was at an open house to roll out the Arrow. With my dad and some other engineers we climbed up on the jig ramps inside the plant and my dad lifted me up and let me have a good look inside Arrow #2 in final assembly. He patently pointed out all the stuff and explained what all the stuff was for so an 8 year old could understand. What I remember most was the pride on the face of my dad and those around him.

[Cat Driver]

I was working at Malton airport when the Avro Arrow was being tested, the last flight I saw was when Jan Zerakowski sp? did the demo flight for John Deifenbacher sp? and his group of dimwits that cancelled the project.


The airplane was a fantastic thing to watch fly even with the G.E. engines one could only wonder at what it would have done with the Orendas in it?

Mark up another point for the stupidity of our elected officials.

.

[scubasteve]

Thanks for all the replies. I should have expected that one from you Cat! If there are any more personal stories I would love to hear them. I think its a fascinating part of our aviation and Canadian history

[Cat Driver]

Scuba... :

Man I am getting old aren't I?

It's 01:05 in the morning and I can't sleep because of jet lag from yesterdays trip.

I have to be up and at the front desk by 06:30 to drive up to Schiphol with the other pilot to fly the airplane back here and I'll probably be sleepy as hell by that time.

I wonder when my health will fail so I can get the hell out of Aviation?

If I were to walk out in front of a truck so I could maybe get busted up just enough to lose my medical, with my luck the driver would be a woman who was looking for me to file a patertinity suit against me and I would still pass a medical after all that trouble.

Cat

[scubasteve]

Gee you've got it rough Cat! Getting all that tail in your youth, flying all over the world, being in movies, flying all those old and cool a/c...yeah you have a rough life. I hope I never have to put up with all that!

[Pop n Fresh]

Good thread. I found it looking for a place to put a video but I'm feeling remorseful now and will possibly post that movie elsewhere.

Funny how Avro was a company that operated with little support from the gov.

[iflyforpie]

Funny how Avro was a company that operated with little support from the gov.

The government was the raison d'être for Avro. From the first Anson to the last Arrow.... I don't think that Avro did anything that wasn't on the government's teat.

It wasn't until Hawker Siddley started making DC-9 wing sets that the Malton factory actually started creating wealth for the country.

[Pop n Fresh]

Well, you might have to leg wrestle over this then.

The Jet Liner was developed and built without any government money and it just about broke the company then.

[iflyforpie]

Of course there were exceptions..... but that was typical of a company who was too comfortable on 'cost plus fee' projects. They didn't have the will or knowhow to cut costs or market a product to a consumer.

[Liquid Charlie]

I was kept awake many nights listening to the engine tests -- and I can remember standing in the school yard and hearing the sonic boom - as pointed out - different era -- mindset was the Russians were coming and interceptors were required - I might add for the pilots of those aircraft in a real war situation it was a one way trip - not enough fuel to get home in the max effort intercept -- DEW Line - Mid Canada Line and Pine Tree Line were all active and people were convinced we would be fighting a war in the Arctic -

[Old Dog Flying]

I was in the RCAF at the time and remember the Arrow only too well. My brother worked on the Iroquois engine and he was one of the Black Friday gang.

As for the RCAF having to wait until after the war for Mustangs,,not true. We had 3 squadrons if Mustang Is operating in the photo recon/close support rol; and it was a 414 Sqn Mustang that got the first Mustang kill of the was over Dieppe. And the RCAF squadrons were later re-equipped with RR powered Mustangs which actually flew the last sorties against the Germans.

So much history, so much mis-information. And the USofA did not kill the Arrow. It was potentially a great interceptor but extremely expensive for the time. When you have a small time lawyer and a retired cavalry officer running the show you know that an interceptor aircraft was not going to happen on their watch.

I too wrote a paper while at Staff School in 1974 and even then I had an awful lot of reference material that is no longer available today...........Per Ardua Ad Astra

Barney

[co-joe]

Makes you want to put an Arrow model on dief's grave stone doesn't it? Thanks for selling us down the river A-hole....