High risk occupation?

[Cat Driver]

I keep reading about instructors claiming that students are trying to kill them.

When did this trait start to appear in the flight training business, is it a new cultural thing or is it due to some new emotional disfunction in society?

I was planning on maybe doing some flight instruction and don't want to die. If it has become that dangerous I wouldn't want to even consider it.

What does one look for to avoid being killed?

[happily.retired]

Try not to be the low man on the totem pole who gets given the students that no one else can get through to even after hundreds of hours in the circuit. That was the only situation that seriously made me consider my own mortality.

But you've put in a few hours so I can't imagine you'd be doing ab-initio, so someone else will have already done the hard work of weeding out the wackoes.

[chipmunk]

Cat, I know you're being facetious , but here goes for someone who actually is interested in getting something out of it:

I've got about 1200 hours instructing and never once have I felt a student was going to kill me. I've flown with all types of students, from 70+ year old seniors to learning a disabled twenty year old to 17 year old punk kids to barely-english-speaking-Japanese-exchange students. And everything in between.

Your students can only kill you if you let them.

Avoid this by:

1) being 10 steps ahead of the airplane and being alert to everything the student is doing
2) creating a cockpit environment such that the student knows when you say "I have control" or "do *such and such*" that will happen, no questions asked
3) being a professional at all times so that students know you are serious (see above) - even on the ramp, office, etc.
4) be a good example at all times - someone is always watching
5) be confident - ensure the student can trust you. If you don't know something, ASK your CFI or supervising instructor.

Too many instructors are too blase' about their job and don't think it's just that - a JOB which requires professionalism. I've posted a few times about this and am starting to get cranky again, so I will sign off.

Cheers!

[Cat Driver]

" Cat, I know you're being facetious "

You are normally fairly astute Chipmunk but this time you miss read me.

I started this to dispell a false premise among some instructors that there is a danger of students killing you during training.

The idea when instructing is to be aware of what is going on and to intervene before a students actions get anywhere near deadly.

But I'll forgive you this one time for not clicking on to what I was up to..

Carry on troops and lets see where this goes.

[chipmunk]

Perhaps I mis-worded it -- I meant to say that I knew that you were asking those questions rhetorically in response to some of the posts in this Flight Training forum lately, and I wasn't responding to you directly...

I should stop using big words - they get me in trouble.

[Cat Driver]

For sure Chip. four letter words are far easier to understand...

[Justwannafly]

I've had a couple (2) students who rutinely kept me on my toes by trying to dig holes in the ground with the airplane, but I was never all that worried....Though maybe I would be if I had a student who was realy excited about this job he had waiting for him at some company call'd Al-Qaeda

[EchoNovemberAlpha]

I keep reading about instructors claiming that students are trying to kill them.

Have experienced this myself...and first off, it seems the instructor is just not confident enough himself! Which is indicative that he shouldn't be doing what he's doing at all in the first place!
Now I'm not an instructor myself, so I might be shooting in the dark, but it just looks like a not-confident-enough case or maybe just a case of an 'over-stressed-instructor'!

I'll say this much, as a student, when you hear an instructor say that, I would just want to tell the guy, "You might want to give instructing a re-think mate!"

[Cat Driver]

It would be unreasonable to expect very low time pilots to begin their flying career in what should be a segment of aviation that requires experience to be properly qualified for the job and not be apprehensive of what they are attempting to do.

The system is ass backwards, teachers should be those at the top of their careers not the bottom.

I have often considered starting an instructor upgrading school to reburn their DVD-RW's and instill a high level of self confidence in their memory banks so when they go back to teaching they have a better understanding of what an airplane is about to do.

Fear of what the student is doing is caused by not knowing what the airplane is about to do and indecision of when to do something to change the situation.

[TC Guy]

Hello, again Cat!

The system is ass backwards, teachers should be those at the top of their careers not the bottom.

Although this is the popular opinion, in my experience, I have found the your statement about the flight training industry being backwards as only *partially* true.

In my background, I have been lucky enough to work with some highly motivated, and very talented young people in this industry. Some have been trained by me, or trained by instructors that were trained by me.

The thing about young people in flight training is that they have enthusiasm. The drive. And, properly motivated (and supervised) make the best ab-initio instructors -- I have had many more compliments on class 4 instructors (teaching PPL) than I did on the more senior instructors. As an very senior instructor, I did avoid doing ab-initio training when I could -- I had done it for too long.

The above situation changes *drastically* with respect to advanced training (for rather obvious reasons). Low time instructors have a great deal of difficulty with commercial (and higher) level training. There is a need for "real-world" experience -- to prepare these young pilots will require in their first few jobs. Beyond that, the former students will learn the rest (through job training and experience).

If you balance your teaching workforce, and train them as they come up the ranks, they serve you *very* well. My greatest achievement in my career (so far) is seeing my former staff go and do excellent things. And, they have.

My final comment has to do with the current state of the industry.

There are less and less higher level instructors available to teach the skills beyond the basic "pass the commercial flight test". This is due to a shortage in the airlines, and the 704's basically taking whatever qualified applicants they can from the available applicants -- the instructors. This is not wrong, just problematic for training. This situation has caused some issues with the smaller schools, who are finding it hard to find a CFI.

With less and less people training (last stats I saw was that flight training in Canada is declining at an alarming rate) this situation is only going to get worse.

In closing, there is a place for more than just the senior instructor at the top of his/her career. A well trained ab-initio instructor with their enthusiasm and energy can train a damn fine PPL student.

If a flight instructor thinks (without joking, of course) that a student has tried to "kill them", they need to:

a) become much more comfortable with their aircraft (flying scared doesn't train a student) or

b) find a right seat job.

My opinions only.

-Guy

[niss]

Jeez,

I have been trying to find instructors that will let me try to kill them but no such luck.

[Cat Driver]

Yippeee...

Hoorrayyyy....

And all you guys thought I was stupid...

Thanks for the well thought out and well written comments TC Guy and Clunk, that was what I was after some comments from the more expericnced people here to dispell the missguided views about flight instruction.

Seems I have to really piss everyone off to get people to lay it on the line and get to the root of what is needed.

Anyhow I agree that keen young instructors with talent are well suited for the early stages of instructing and as students advance they require more experienced teachers.

Maybe a two tier system wherein ab-initio training is done under the FTU system and then the students can choose from a pool of experienced teachers working as private enterprise offering their services without all the mindboggling crap that is required to run a FTU?

Or are the days of private enterprise where the product determines the success or failure of a business gone forever and you Canadians ( I no longer consider myself a Canadian in the true sense ) are children of the nanny state run by idiots?

Allow me to expand on my comment about no longer considering myself a Canadian, it was not my choice it was forced on me by those co.ksuckers in TCCA who denied me my rights as a Canadian citizen.

If there were ever to be a revolt against the present regime in Ottawa I would be in the front line leading the assault.

Anyone who doesen't like my attitude can kiss my ass.

[Blue Side Down]

When did this trait start to appear in the flight training business, is it a new cultural thing or is it due to some new emotional disfunction in society?

The flight instructing business may have already developed into a machine that will perpetuate this habit of 'students who try to kill instructors'.
My theory- low time pilot gets instructor's rating, new instructor is assigned student, new instructor presents information they themselves are still learning, student learns concept but gains little insight, student tries to fly base to final at 1.05 Vs.

On the other hand, this issue may very well be a side-effect of the recent shifts in society/ a new cultural thing... but the human mind hasn't changed a whole heck of a lot in the past millenia, so I'd chalk it up to the state of the industry.

In the end, why complain about it on a forum? Theres a lot of positive action that can be done elsewheres.

[Cat Driver]

" In the end, why complain about it on a forum? Theres a lot of positive action that can be done elsewheres. "

First off I'm not complaining, I am commenting.

I couldn't give a rats ass if every instructor and student are at a low level of flying skills as long as they don't fly anything I own.

What is a forum for if you can't discuss things?

[152driver]

Going back to the original title,

The only thing high risk about instructing is dealing with a buearcratic machine (aka TCCA).

I suppose this applies more to the CFI and ownership, but instructing itself I consider to be very low risk. I always felt like I was in control and 5 min ahead of the airplane. Let em bounce it on (to a degree of course) and learn from it.

[Shiny Side Up]

One would hope that there haven't been any cases out there of students actively and with the intent of malice were trying to harm the instructor they were flying with. Aside from the odd anomoly of society who walks through the door wanting to learn how to fly an airplane, such is the case (I could mention the student who flew into a rage in the middle of a flight threatening his instructor with bodily harm, who later it was discovered lost his medical when the doctor deemed it time to up his dosage of "happy pills" but anyhoo...)

When did this trait start to appear in the flight training business, is it a new cultural thing or is it due to some new emotional disfunction in society?

Here though you might be on to something. As anyone who deals with the general public - flight instructors included - have probably noticed a deffinite shift in the way customers behave. I have had many who, through their own ignorance, apathy, impatientce, or just plain stupidity have unnecesarlily put my instructors, my employees, themselves or myself in harm's way. I could spend hours if not days listing the instances of near misses, which as the aircraft manuals are so fond of pointing out, could have led to injury or death.

Now I can only assume Cat, that given your station in the aviation industry you are largely insulated by virtue that people who exibit these tendencies get weeded out long before (sometimes by death) they get to the stage of being in an airplane with you - or at least its been a while since you've been in that position to experience them. If you need to experience it, go to any venue where customers are present and watch how they treat the staff. I don't know about you, but when I get these sort of people I have no qualms about sending them packing.

With that in mind, one can hardly blame instructors talking about their students "trying to kill them" as long as they don't do it in front of said students and it remains in a place like this forum or between instructors - its how workers let off steam. Go to any business where you have your workers dealing with the public and you'll find the same - maybe not with the death factor involved (well maybe, someone once threatened my life over the price of a bag of nails) Sadly given the way today's society increasingly leans to making everything faster and easier fueled by its increasingly self centeredness of the average person, its only going to get worse.

[happily.retired]

Thanks Shiny.

I've spent several days obsessing (again) about the time I thought I was toast and whether it was indicative of being a crappy instructor. I know I should have done things differently (Which really goes without saying as I was a 250 hour instructor at the time) but it is still comforting to know I'm not the only one out there who failled to anticipate just how reckless and inattentive some people can be. I do however think it should be pointed out to the suppervising instructors out there that when your class IVs come to you and say Joe Schmoe is going to get somebody killed it would be of immeasurable value to the rookies and the industry as a whole if there were some support available.

I'm currious what other people think should be done with a student who could be trained so that they can pass the flight test but can never be made into a SAFE pilot?

Edited 'cuz pilots can't spell

[Cat Driver]

" I'm currious what other people think should be done with a student who could be trained so that they can pass the flight test but can never be made into a SAFE pilot? "

Have your CFI evaluate your suspision.

[shitdisturber]

(I could mention the student who flew into a rage in the middle of a flight threatening his instructor with bodily harm, who later it was discovered lost his medical when the doctor deemed it time to up his dosage of "happy pills" but anyhoo...)

You should have told me about that; I'd have cheerfully punched his lights out, you know I didn't like him anyway.

Oddly enough, in all my years of instructing only three people have made an attempt on me; and only one of those was really serious. What gets really interesting is that all of them were licenced pilots getting checkouts; and the most serious attempt was made by a commercial pilot fixed and rotary wing. I'm guessing the reason is that student pilots, with the odd stupid exception, actually pay attention and at least try to do what you're telling them. They may not always be successful but at least they try.

[happily.retired]

Sadly the student in my situation was given to me after three previous instructors (Two of which had been CFIs in their time) were unable to get him to a safe level.

Any input from owners on this matter? Do you let them keep flying untill they figure out for themselves that it'll never happen or do you quit accepting their money eventually?

[Shiny Side Up]

" I'm currious what other people think should be done with a student who could be trained so that they can pass the flight test but can never be made into a SAFE pilot? "

Have your CFI evaluate your suspision.

Don't cop out on us Cat! What would you do if you were said CFI, and better yet how would you handle it if you agreed with your instructor's judgement?

[Cat Driver]

" Don't cop out on us Cat! What would you do if you were said CFI, and better yet how would you handle it if you agreed with your instructor's judgement? "

I would take the student out to a good restraunt and have a heart to heart talk to the student.

I would be up front with said student and use an example such as playing a musical instrument, I like music but just do not have the ability to learn to play musical instruments.

I would be very clear in explaining that said student may never grasp the how to fly and that is nothing to be ashamed of, as we are all different.

So as not to let the student down and really destroy their self worth I would tell them that even though I have given my opinion the decision to quit flying or to continue is entirely up to the individual and by all means keep trying if that is what makes them happy.

As a token of my sincerity I would offer to be their full time instructor as often as my time constraints allowed and I would do my best to turn around whatever problem was preventing the student from progressing..

That is how I would handle it.

[happily.retired]

And if the student is knowingly reckless, figures he can take whatever risks he wants and it's nobody else's business? It's not uncommon for people these days to think that if you are taking their money they should get to make the rules. Somewhere between grade school and the airport people seem to forget to respect their instructors. Has anyone ever succeeded with a student like this? To the best of my knowledge the student I dealt will was still not licenced when the instructor AFTER me moved on.(His 5th instructor 3 years later)

[TC Guy]

I would be up front with said student and use an example such as playing a musical instrument, I like music but just do not have the ability to learn to play musical instruments.

I would be very clear in explaining that said student may never grasp the how to fly and that is nothing to be ashamed of, as we are all different.

So as not to let the student down and really destroy their self worth I would tell them that even though I have given my opinion the decision to quit flying or to continue is entirely up to the individual and by all means keep trying if that is what makes them happy.

As a token of my sincerity I would offer to be their full time instructor as often as my time constraints allowed and I would do my best to turn around whatever problem was preventing the student from progressing..

That is how I would handle it.

Very classy, and well said.

I have had to do that several times in my career, and although it has never been "pleasant", the student always seemed to appreciate it. In some cases, it seemed like a relief -- a weight taken off their shoulders.

I do have to admit, if has gotten to that point where I would have this discussion with them (and it was never a surprise to the student in question) I discontinued training altogether. I could no longer take their money (even if just for the aircraft).

*In some cases*, I did add is that we are all at different points in our lives... if at some later time (when they have possibly resolved some issues in thier lives) if they wished to come back and try again, to look me up.

-Guy

[trey kule]

blue side down wrote

tries to fly base to final at 1.05 Vs.

this is a little off topic, but it got my attention. for longer than I can remember, I have heard pilots answer the questions as to what your approach speed should be as 1.3 Vs. and you know what. Not one....not one..of the airspeed indicators I have looked at has a mark for Vs 1.3 or, as above //vs1.05. blue lines, red lines colored arcs ...yep all there.
So I have to ask, why would you not state your student was flying base to final 10 knots to slow or something like that.
Now why am I getting all snarkety at this? Because I see to many commercial pilots coming out of schools who can not seem to nail a target airspeed, and dont understand that configuration, type of approach etc, may require a different airspeed. And unless you have a specific airspeed to use as a target it is hard to nail it right on.....my rant for the day.

As to the actual thread, seems everyone is pretty much in agreement on this one, does it not?