If America Banned the Sale of Guns Tomorrow....

Inverted2 · Post by **Inverted2** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:25 am

It would't make a difference.

I would guess there's hundreds of millions of guns in the US. There will always be millions of guns in the US. Every now and then one of these nutjobs goes nuts and this is the result.......

Lloyd Christmas · Post by **Lloyd Christmas** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:53 am

You're probably right, some people are just plain nuts, maybe they could atleast try to make it harder to get guns, rather than be able to pick them up at the till at your local super market.

CID · Post by **CID** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:59 am

The latest mass shooting incident really isn't relevant to gun control. Desperate nutjobs don't exist BECAUSE of guns. The amount of destruction they impose is dependant on the types of guns and ammo available to them however.

Gun control is more likely to prevent crimes of the less desperate which are much more prevalent in the US than school rampages.

31 (at last count) died in Virgina yesterday at the hands of this lunatic. One or two people are murdered in Virgina per day on average. About 45 people are murdered each day in the US. Gun control is more likely to help the "other" 45 people that were murdered in the US yesterday.

Inverted2 · Post by **Inverted2** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:57 pm

I just saw on the news that the school had a "gun drop off room" so students who carried handguns could leave them when they went to class.

I am a gun owner but geez, its scary to think how many americans carry handguns. Im gonna think twice before I ever argue with an american on a layover!

Nark · Post by **Nark** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:41 pm

They should outlaw the sale of controlled substances. That will totally eleiminate all the drugs problems.

As our friend, Charlie Brown used to say, Good grief.

Dash-Ate · Post by **Dash-Ate** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:54 pm

If there were no guns people would make pointy sticks and stab people with them. Same diff.

Flying Low · Post by **Flying Low** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:20 am

Ahhh yes...but what are the chances of being an innocent victim of a drive by sticking?????

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:40 am

What are your odds of dying by heart failure or cancer?

Almost 100%, but how many people here smoke and regularly eat fatty foods?

Brewguy · Post by **Brewguy** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:43 am

Dash-Ate wrote:If there were no guns people would make pointy sticks and stab people with them...

True.

However, one would have to assume that clubbing, strangling & stabbing people to death would be a little more difficult than to simply 'point & shoot'. It would at least require more physical effort ... making it more difficult for these weak pathetic losers to go on a rampage.

Certainly the death-toll of your average massacre would be somewhat reduced without firearms ... would it not?

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:41 am

Certainly the death-toll of your average massacre would be somewhat reduced without firearms ... would it not?

Ever heard of Timothy McVeigh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_mcveigh

He killed 170 people and injured almost a THOUSAND more ... using fertilizer. You wanna outlaw fertilizer?

At some point, the light bulb goes on and you realize that PEOPLE are dangerous.

Try really hard to get over the freudian symbolism of guns, ok?

Big Pratt · Post by **Big Pratt** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:03 am

How many guns were used during September 11th?

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:06 pm

Hedley wrote:What are your odds of dying by heart failure or cancer?

Almost 100%, but how many people here smoke and regularly eat fatty foods?

So do you leave bottles of ammonia out with little kids around too? Do you let five year olds drive? Do you use seatbelts? This is a public safety issue and you guys are defending specifically designed lethal weapons with ridiculous arguments that you wouldn't think of using for anything else.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:14 pm

Do you let five year olds drive?

IIRC A.J. Foyt, the famous 3-time Indianapolis race car driver, won his first race when he was 5 years old. I will check his auto-biography tonight.

The same left-wing, powerful central government argument that you make about guns can be made about race cars, pleasure boats, motorcycles, ATV's, snowmobiles, light aircraft, lawn mowers, weed eaters, chain saws, tractors, electric drills, etc - they are not "necessary" therefore we should get rid of them, because someone might die if they are operated incorrectly

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:51 pm

Hedley wrote:
Do you let five year olds drive?
IIRC A.J. Foyt, the famous 3-time Indianapolis race car driver, won his first race when he was 5 years old. I will check his auto-biography tonight.

The same left-wing, powerful central government argument that you make about guns can be made about race cars, pleasure boats, motorcycles, ATV's, snowmobiles, light aircraft, lawn mowers, weed eaters, chain saws, tractors, electric drills, etc - they are not "necessary" therefore we should get rid of them, because someone might die if they are operated incorrectly

I had this discussion with someone else. Do you not see the difference between a handgun and the items you mention above? It's like the Sesame Street game "One of these things doesn't belong here". And I'm actually right wing in my political views thank you.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:55 pm

Right wing, for sure.

While you are spending all this effort gnashing your teeth over guns, you or anyone you know is statistically as likely to win the 649 as to get shot.

However, perhaps you and lots of the people you know will die from cancer and heart disease. That gets 110,000 Canadians every year. The 200 or so who get shot are a real social problem, though, and demand all our resources.

But keep fattening up those kids and get 'em hooked on Timmy's and McD's - the only sad part of this is that we can't select the patrons for these joints as I know who...never mind.

Somebody just cured diabetes, though not the kind you get from being fat.

Luscombe · Post by **Luscombe** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:55 pm

I'm going on a bit of a side-line here.....

During one of my last trips to the US, I was in Miami FLA. I stopped by a gun store to inquire as to the price of a 9mm target pistol. I shoot recreationally and hunt, and I was considering getting back into competitive pistol shooting again. I was amazed at the US ignorance of our gun control laws in Canada.

I was told by the owner of the store that he would gladly sell me a gun if I showed him my drivers licence, but I wouldn't be able to take it into Canada because guns were illegal here. He then said that he wouldn't want to live in a country that the only guns were in the posession of the police and the military. I then presented my PAL licence and told him that I could indeed purchase a pistol from him and import it legally into Canada.

I didn't buy it even though the one I was considering was significantly cheaper than anything I could get in Canada. I was however shocked at the ease of access to firearms with nothing but a drivers licence. Incidentally in the store, he had racks and racks of AR-15's which for those who don't know guns is the semi-auto version of the American Army issue M-16 rifle. I'm a deer hunter and I have yet to need anything with that kind of firepower to bring down Bamby. Cripes!!

I really don't have the answer here, but guns are available and relatively inexpensive here in Canada, why don't we have the same sort of problem as the Americans? I don't even think Michael Moore could answer it in "Bowling for Columbine".

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:07 pm

xsbank wrote:Right wing, for sure.

While you are spending all this effort gnashing your teeth over guns, you or anyone you know is statistically as likely to win the 649 as to get shot.

However, perhaps you and lots of the people you know will die from cancer and heart disease. That gets 110,000 Canadians every year. The 200 or so who get shot are a real social problem, though, and demand all our resources.

But keep fattening up those kids and get 'em hooked on Timmy's and McD's - the only sad part of this is that we can't select the patrons for these joints as I know who...never mind.

Somebody just cured diabetes, though not the kind you get from being fat.

Ridiculous.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:27 pm

You win, Rockie. I give up. Sleep well tonight.

Nark · Post by **Nark** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:44 pm

Luscombe you're showing your ingnorance towards firearms.

Not to defend the gun dealer in Florida, but did you really expect him to know the firearm laws in Canada? Give me a break.

For those of you who don't know, an AR-15 is a .223 cal (5.56mm) semi auto rifle. My M-16 has a 3 round burst, where the AR-15 doesn't.
Since I'm in the military, I'm allowed to have a magazine that can carry 30 rounds. The general public is limited to 8 (if memory serves).

The stopping power of a .223 round isn't terribly great. The average huntinig rifle is a .30cal variant. Alot more stopping power than my M-16.

Don't judge a book by it's cover. Same applies to rifles.

Springbok 3 · Post by **Springbok 3** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:49 pm

Nark wrote:Luscombe you're showing your ingnorance towards firearms.

Not to defend the gun dealer in Florida, but did you really expect him to know the firearm laws in Canada? Give me a break.

For those of you who don't know, an AR-15 is a .223 cal (5.56mm) semi auto rifle. My M-16 has a 3 round burst, where the AR-15 doesn't.
Since I'm in the military, I'm allowed to have a magazine that can carry 30 rounds. The general public is limited to 8 (if memory serves).

The stopping power of a .223 round isn't terribly great. The average huntinig rifle is a .30cal variant. Alot more stopping power than my M-16.

Don't judge a book by it's cover. Same applies to rifles.

On a PAL here in Canada we are limited to 5 rounds in a rifle and max of 10 in a semi auto pistol or handgun. Nark, why not carry a 50 round mag if you are still active in the Ops area?

Main difference is that a Canadian will not be able to own such a rifle as it is on the prohibited firearms list. The .223 was designed to maim and kill.
Here is some info from my days as a military firearms instructor:

US M193 5,56 x 45mm
This bullet is fired from the US armed forces' first generation smaller-calibre rifle, the M16Al. The large permanent cavity it produces, shown in the wound profile (Fig 3). was observed by surgeons who served in Vietnam, but the tissue disruption mechanism responsible was not clear until the importance of bullet fragmentation, as a cause of tissue disruption, was worked out and described.

As shown on the wound profile, this full-metal-jacketed bullet travels point forward in tissue for about 12cm, after which it yaws to 90 degrees, flattens, and breaks at the cannelure (groove around bullet midsection into which the cartridge neck is crimped). The bullet point flattens but remains in one piece, retaining about 60% of the original bullet weight. The rear portion breaks into many fragments that penetrate up to 7cm radially from the bullet path.

The temporary cavity stretch, its effect increased by perforation and weakening of the tissue by fragments, then causes a much enlarged permanent cavity by detaching tissue pieces. The degree of bullet fragmentation decreases with increased shooting distance (as striking velocity decreases), as shown in Fig 3. At a shooting distance over about 100m the bullet breaks at the cannelure, forming two large fragments and, at over 200m it no longer breaks, although it continues to flatten somewhat, until 400m.

This consistent change in deformation/fragmentation pattern has an important forensic application. It can be used to estimate shooting distance if the bullet is recovered in the body and has penetrated only soft tissue.

The effects of this bullet in the abdomen shot will show the temporary cavity effects as described for the Yugoslav AK-47 and, in addition, there will be an increased tissue disruption from the synergistic effect of temporary cavitation acting on tissue that has been weakened by bullet fragmentation.

Instead of finding a hole consistent with the size of the bullet in hollow organs such as the intestine, we typically find a hole left by missing tissue of up to 7cm in diameter (see permanent cavity in Fig 3.)

The thigh entrance wound will be small and punctuate. The first part of the tissue path will show minimal disruption, The exit will vary from the small punctate hole described for the Soviet AK-47 to the stellate exit described for the Yugoslav AK-47, depending on how thick the thigh is and where the bullet perforates. In a sufficiently thick thigh, the M193 bullet fragmentation is also likely to cause a significant loss of tissue and probably one or more small exit wounds near the large stellate one.

Springbok 3 · Post by **Springbok 3** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:05 pm

Back to the subject at hand.

As far as gun crime is concerned, South Africa currently holds the # 1 spot in the world. SA has always had responsible gun laws and a very good track record with regard to legal gun ownership, control and issueing of licences to carry. The illegals firearms as a result of the easy access to such weapons via the trouble spots on our borders, by far out number the legal guns. These days, cash in transit robberies are executed by military and police personnel using R4 assault rifles that used to only belong to the military before the current black terrorist government took over in 1994.

Now my question, why with all these firearms lying around and easily accessed for the price of a good meal, why has there never been a school / university /campus killing in South Africa? We have all the perfect ingredients but yet it seems to be a North American culture.

Concestor 0 · Post by **Concestor 0** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:16 pm

Sure, there are plenty of ways for people to kill each other if they choose - but why make it easy?

Guns are single purpose. Recreational shooting? I suppose it can be explained by our genetic makeup but why give in to an ancient impulse to be violent.

If someone wants to buy a bad ass gun to blast the shit out of things I have no objection but make damn sure that person is sane and responsible.

Wasps rule · Post by **Wasps rule** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:15 pm

CID wrote: Gun control is more likely to prevent crimes of the less desperate which are much more prevalent in the US than school rampages.

gun control penalizes only those who are not inclined, or likely to commit crimes. There are recent examples of legislated gun control that can be analyzed and conclusions drawn. Washington D.C. is one example that shows the failings of gun control, there are more.

Guns are single purpose. Recreational shooting? I suppose it can be explained by our genetic makeup but why give in to an ancient impulse to be violent.

We also have an ancient impulse towards self-preservation. Protecting yourself our your family with a gun in a life threatening situation is a valid purpose in my books.

I doubt the gunman wouldn't have killed as many people if his targets were returning fire, rather than hiding behind desks.

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:19 am

30 people are killed on the streets of Baghdad each day.

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:58 am

Nark wrote:Luscombe you're showing your ingnorance towards firearms.

Not to defend the gun dealer in Florida, but did you really expect him to know the firearm laws in Canada? Give me a break.

For those of you who don't know, an AR-15 is a .223 cal (5.56mm) semi auto rifle. My M-16 has a 3 round burst, where the AR-15 doesn't.
Since I'm in the military, I'm allowed to have a magazine that can carry 30 rounds. The general public is limited to 8 (if memory serves).

The stopping power of a .223 round isn't terribly great. The average huntinig rifle is a .30cal variant. Alot more stopping power than my M-16.

Don't judge a book by it's cover. Same applies to rifles.

I just want to clarify something Nark. When you are carrying out the legal orders of your superiors in the military, under the authority, operational control and discipline of the military command structure, you can carry whatever weapon they have that you are properly trained and signed off on. But absent the above and just being a citizen you are subject to the same civil laws as anybody else...even if you are Rambo. It is not your M-16, it belongs to the Marine Corps.