Blue Angles crash?

dave7101 · Post by **dave7101** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:23 pm

CNN is reporting a Blue Angles flight team member crashed during an airshow in South Carolina? Anyone have any more info?

CD · Post by CD » Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:26 pm

The link:

Blue Angels jet crashes during air show

Tubthumper · Post by **Tubthumper** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:47 pm

Pilot killed

http://apnews.excite.com/article/200704 ... 9US00.html

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:05 pm

Sad news... RIP

Golden Flyer · Post by **Golden Flyer** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:54 am

Sad story! R.I.P. to the pilot. It still can't understand why he wouldn't eject. Unless he was upside down of course.

TheCheez · Post by **TheCheez** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:48 am

The CNN report has been updated to say that the A/C struck a tree during a sharp turn.

RIP

Big Pratt · Post by **Big Pratt** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:26 pm

LCDR Kevin J. Davis

Lieutenant Commander Kevin Davis is a native of Pittsfield, Massachusetts, and graduated from Reading Memorial High School in 1992 where he played football and was active with the Civil Air Patrol. He attended Embry Riddle Aeronautical University, earning a Bachelor of Science degree in Aeronautical Science with honors in 1996.

Kevin reported to Naval Air Station (NAS) Pensacola, Florida, for Officer Candidate School and aviation indoctrination in September 1996. He completed primary flight training at NAS Corpus Christi, Texas, and transferred to NAS Meridian, Mississippi, for intermediate and advanced flight training. While there, he flew the T-2C Buckeye and TA-4J Skyhawk, and received his wings of gold in June 1999.

Kevin reported to Fighter Squadron 101 (VF-101) at NAS Oceana, Virginia, for training in the F-14 Tomcat and was the “Top Stick” in his class. In July 2000 he reported to the VF-11 “Red Rippers” where he completed deployments aboard the aircraft carriers USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN 69) and USS John F. Kennedy (CV 67). While with the “Red Rippers,” Kevin served as the airframes/corrosion branch officer, air-to-ground training officer and head landing signals officer. His deployments included extended operations in the North Arabian Sea and Arabian Gulf in support of Operation Enduring Freedom.

In July 2003, Kevin transitioned to the F/A-18 Hornet through Strike Fighter Squadron 125 (VFA-125) at NAS Lemoore, California, and then reported to the Fighter Composite Squadron (VFC-12) “Omars,” stationed at NAS Oceana, Virginia. While at VFC-12, Kevin served as a Navy adversary pilot providing valuable air-to-air training for fleet squadrons. In December of 2004, Kevin graduated from the United States Navy Fighter Weapons School (TOPGUN) as an adversary pilot. During his tour at VFC-12, Kevin worked as the schedules officer, legal officer, FRS/SFARP officer and assistant operations officer.

Kevin joined the Blue Angels in September 2005. He has accumulated more than 2,500 flight hours and 200 carrier arrested landings. His decorations include the Air Medal, two Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medals, and various personal and unit awards.

Sad day.

R.I.P.

Tubthumper · Post by **Tubthumper** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:45 am

Here is another photo of Ken Davis...... but anyone care to guess who is sitting in the back?

....answer to follow....

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/messag ... eID=192357

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:01 am

The old gray-haired guy? Wasn't he in a Viagra commercial last week, with a blue (what a coincidence!) older corvette?

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:18 pm

A most interesting and timely read.

Brown shoe-black shoe-- Thought you might be interested in some arm chair quarterbacking which probably is valid regarding the recent Blue Angels crash.

This from "Pete" a former A4 and F-18 driver and IP.

From: "Ross, Peter G CAPT, USNR

Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:23:28 -0400

More detail available today. Having seen video of the crash, my initial
speculatio n is that there was a G induced loss of consciousness (GLOC).

The most aggressive flying in the Blue Angel show takes place in the
join ups behind show center. The timing requires "expeditious" join ups
involving huge overtake speeds and high G maneuvering in the terminal
phase of the rejoin to dissipate the overtake. The video I saw shows No.
6 closing on the formation for the rejoin, but before he gets there, the
jet lags the formation, goes outside the turn radius and descends in
seeming controlled flight to the tree line. This would be consistent
with GLOC on the rendezvous. If the pilot passed out at the join up,
he'd be back on the power. Upon loss of consciousness, the G would ease
immediately taking him outside the formation turn radius. At flight
idle, the jet would slowly descend.

To regain consciousness, the pilot needs blood to flow to the brain which takes a varying amount of time depending how deep the GLOC. The senses return in reverse sequence to their loss. Hearing, then vision, cognition, then motor control. The frustrating part is when you can see and understand the problem but don't have the motor control to manipulate the flight controls
appropriately.

I have done this to myself in the Hornet, thankfully not so close to the ground

. Of course, without the determinations of the safety investigation, the
foregoing is mere speculation. However, a catastrophic, double engine
failure is unheard of in the Hornet, and it would likely provide
evidence in smoke, flames and parts emanating from the tailpipes prior
to the crash. The media all seem focused on the impact with trees and
power lines, but that is inevitable when falling to the earth.

This pilot was no rookie. A former Tomcat driver and TOPGUN grad, he was an experienced fighter pilot. GLOC is something that can effect even the most seasoned pilots and it varies day to day and can turn on something as innocuous as time since the pilot's last meal.

In any event, this is a sad day for the Navy.
V/r,----Pete

Tubthumper · Post by **Tubthumper** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:34 pm

...I forgot that the Blue Angels don't wear G-suits. That photo I posted has Harrison Ford sitting in the back.

fougapilot · Post by **fougapilot** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:45 am

G suits are most efficient in combat situation. The usualy only add 1.5g to an individual tolerance. Where they really shine is when the Gs are applied for an extended period of time. During an airshow, the G are not sustained like in a combat situation, these short G bursts do not allow blood time to go far down into your legs, hence the limited efficiency of the G suit.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for the Blue Angels, Thunderbirds and Snowbirds but they are not the guys pulling the most Gs out there. Guys like Mike Goullian, Rob Holland, Sean Tucker, Curby Chambliss regularly pull into the double digits Gs positive and 7Gs NEGATIVE (all without G suits) while the F18 is limited to 7.5Gs, F16 to 9Gs and Tutor to 7.3Gs. Some of the sport aviation airplanes out there are limited to + or - 15Gs!!!!!

GLOC sucks.

Sad day in deed

F

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:25 am

A much cheaper and simpler way to increase your G tolerance by around 1.5 +G's is to grunt breathe. Breath out hard, but restrict the outflow of air through your mouth. This will increase the pressure in your lungs, and help force oxygen into your bloodstream. It's a good thing to do when you start to lose your color and peripheral vision.

This works well at high altitude, too, but it is quite tedious.

Note that civilians pull an awful lot of G (both +ve and -ve) but it is instantaneous, because of the enormous thrust required to overcome the drag produced at high speed and high AOA. Military aircraft with afterburner can sustain G for a long time.

Sean Tucker, though has a a trick where he does a series of vertical
snap rolls, pulling +12Gs while trading off a LOT of altitude (read: energy).

G suits are surely not a "silver bullet", though. When my father was flying (jet) fighters over in Europe, they flew a LOT and spent a lot of time pulling G. Nobody wore the G suits - they were hot and uncomfortable.

What was fascinating is that the blood pressures of all the pilots in the squadron, in reaction to the G, rose above nominally acceptable levels. Theoretically, if they applied the rules like Transport Canada Inspectors, all the pilots would have been grounded because they weren't healthy enough to fly, when in fact their bodies were just adapting.

TheCheez · Post by **TheCheez** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 10:07 am

Is there a good reason to not wear G-Suits? As long as the plane is equipped with it, and its SOP for normal ops of that A/C, why ditch them for a demo?

Do the Thunderbirds wear them?

Crazymax · Post by **Crazymax** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 10:56 am

TheCheez wrote:Is there a good reason to not wear G-Suits? As long as the plane is equipped with it, and its SOP for normal ops of that A/C, why ditch them for a demo?

Do the Thunderbirds wear them?

From what I read from various sources, the G-suit and Mask are in the way of the pilot. When the G-Suit inflates, it restricts the stick and the pilot can't go full deflection. As for the mask, it's the Hose that is in the way of the arms.

As far as I know, Thunderbirds wear both, but their stick is on the side, not between the legs. There is no interference between G-Suit/Stick and Arms/Hose.

Max

Golden Flyer · Post by **Golden Flyer** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:58 am

Max is right. The team has had serious trouble in the past with the G suits. They've been in the way of the stick while doing tight formations, thereby putting people at risk.

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:36 pm

1000+ hours in the CF-18. The g-suits do not in any way restrict the flight controls, nor does the mask. While not essential, they do increase the G tolerance of the pilot, and I suspect the reason the Angels don't wear them is because of the nature of their show. The public part of their show starts long before they reach the jets and finishes long after they leave them. I think they don't want to interrupt that part of the show by putting on the pants, or looking all creased up when they get up close to the public. Sounds cheezy, but that part of what they do is very important to them and is every bit as polished and rehearsed as their flight display.

Even the solo pilots don't come close to showing what the plane can really do because, I suspect, they limit themselves voluntarily knowing they aren't wearing the pants. If G-LOC is the cause of this crash hopefully they will rethink that policy and start wearing all the gear.

TG · Post by TG » Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:47 pm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18248797/
Way down this article you can read this:

After the deadly 1999 crash, the Navy’s air training chief ordered the Blue Angels to consider wearing G-suits. An investigation determined that the most likely cause of that crash was that the pilot was momentarily impaired because of a prior rib injury. Pain from the rib injury might have kept the pilot from tensing his abdominal muscles during a turning causing him to suffer tunnel vision.

Tubthumper · Post by **Tubthumper** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:55 pm

Another thing I had heard mentioned on a documentary about them is that for flight , the aircraft is purposely trimmed nose down. In order to keep the aircraft level, it requires a constant minimum of 30lbs of back pressure the entire time, the pilots arm rests on his thigh the majority of the time and they don't want the G-suit inflating/deflating, slightly moving the pilots arming when he doesn't want it moved even the slightest amount.

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 10:13 pm

My deepest sympathies to the family and friends.. as well as his fellow team members.

rotorfloat · Post by **rotorfloat** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:34 am

Here's the footage from Liveleak

At 1:28 you see 4 aircraft in formation (left to right) and a fifth joining up from left to right.

LCDR Davis' plane is the 6th to form up and is coming from the opposite direction, diving and turning very tightly to join the group.

Have to say I agree with the GLOC scenario.

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:46 pm

Yeah it looks like he yanked pretty hard in that join up and lost it. Ever the showmen though the rest of the team completes an air display pitch out to land knowing that they lost one of their own. I don't know that I would be in the mood for that.

The F-18 flight control system cannot be trimmed except when in the landing configuration. It's possible the Blue Angel machines have been specially modified but I don't know about that. It would be a radical modification. I do know that the Snowbirds fly with the stick loaded forward because it gives them more sensitive control over pitch. I personally never flew that way in formation because it seemed like too much work.

The G-suit thing is a red herring because it doesn't interfere with the flight controls at all. The Blue Angels have always been the only team to not wear the suits when the airplanes are plumbed for it, which is why I think it has more to do with the ground portion of their display and not any safety concerns they might have with wearing them. Quite the opposite in fact. At least one and now likely two crashes have been caused by G-loc which the suit would have helped prevent.

The Thunderbirds have always worn suits and masks even when they were flying F4's at the same time as the Angels.

The Red Arrows always wear suits and masks.
The Patrioulle de Swiss same.
The Patrioulle de France same.
The Snowbirds would if they could.

boeingboy · Post by **boeingboy** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:00 am

The G-suit thing is a red herring because it doesn't interfere with the flight controls at all. The Blue Angels have always been the only team to not wear the suits when the airplanes are plumbed for it, which is why I think it has more to do with the ground portion of their display and not any safety concerns they might have with wearing them. Quite the opposite in fact. At least one and now likely two crashes have been caused by G-loc which the suit would have helped prevent.

Rockie,
The Blue Angles do not wear G-suits because of reasons stated before......It would interfer with the controls. This is because the blues adjust the seats all the way fwd and the rudder pedals all the way back. they then rest their arms in their laps. If the suit was inflating and deflating then it would be moving the stick. Not good when you wingman is 36 inches from you!

As for the T-birds, the seats are naturally reclinded 30 degrees and the side stick controller is a force feel stick - it really only moves about an inch and thats just for pilot feel.

Nark · Post by **Nark** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:01 am

The seat in the F-18 doesn't move. The rudders come to you (or away).

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:30 am

Forward trim in form, like coffee, beer and blue cheese, is an acquired taste. The first time you try it, your reaction is likely going to be "yuck!"

However, some fwd trim (say 20 lbs, my personal fav) makes flying precise formation a LOT easier, especially in the bumps, because it gets rid of the natural oscillation in pitch that occurs as your transition through neutral. It is easier to vary the amount of pull, rather than try to transition continually from pull to push to pull to push ...

Also, if you're going to fly both positive and negative G formation, forward trim means you can avoid a big push on the stick as the negative G's build.

Some people here might advocating changing the trim during a sequence (eg fwd trim before -ve G) but I don't like that much.

Andre Lortie, ex-snowbird and leader of the Northern Lights aerobatic team used to fly with a LOT of forward trim, and he was lead!