Jazz program for Uni grads?
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
In Europe they don't have a big pool of hard working pilot on small aircraft learning basic aviation rules and operating in a very demanding environment. We have the luxury to be able to hire experience pilot with a referenced background in the industry, the only reason for changing that is economics, experience pilots demands better work rules and money, the young grads will do anything for nothing to get in the doors....
The issue is not one of hording experience and not be willing to share the experience. It has more to do with the fact that the pretext that is being used, that of a shortage is bogus! The shortage is one of their own making. The reason that there are fewer people that have signed up for training is a direct result of the fact that more and more, people are starting to realize that this profession is not financially rewarding. It has been some time for me, but I suspect you could take the money you would otherwise invest in flight training and degrees and learn something that pays considerably more for less.
As far as the use of low time pilots in major airlines in other countries of the world, well it comes back down to economics. The biggest difference, with the exception of the U.S. is that in these countries, the candidates are recruited by the air carrier directly off the street, put through intensive evaluations and then trained by the company, who incidently pays for their training. This is not going to be how it is done at Jazz.
Just like any other industry, if you want to attract talent and keep them, you have to be willing to pay.
As far as the use of low time pilots in major airlines in other countries of the world, well it comes back down to economics. The biggest difference, with the exception of the U.S. is that in these countries, the candidates are recruited by the air carrier directly off the street, put through intensive evaluations and then trained by the company, who incidently pays for their training. This is not going to be how it is done at Jazz.
Just like any other industry, if you want to attract talent and keep them, you have to be willing to pay.
With so many companies hiring and fast movement up the ranks, would it really hurt to let these guys get some other experience before hiring them.
It's not as if they will have to instruct for years before they get a lucky break and sit right seat in a caravan.
Nowadays it seems like they could be sitting right seat in a King Air within a year. Hire them later.
It'll just mean everybody gets more opportunities all the way up the ladder.
It's not as if they will have to instruct for years before they get a lucky break and sit right seat in a caravan.
Nowadays it seems like they could be sitting right seat in a King Air within a year. Hire them later.
It'll just mean everybody gets more opportunities all the way up the ladder.
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Jaques Strappe
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Your right, it does work in Europe but that is because they actually train to a higher standard. First off, they will probably do their multi training in a Cheyenne 400 instead of a Seminole. The Airlines spend the time training, not like the Canadian system where everything is learned on the job. The simple fact is, Canadian standards for acquiring a Commercial or ATPL are waaaaayy to low. How can someone become an Airline Transport rated pilot by sitting in the right seat of a buck 50, flying around a circuit in CAVU weather? Only in Canada you say?.......pity.worthyofed wrote:This whole "direct-entry" kind of idea seems to work in Europe. Why wouldn't it work here?
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That is why people react the way they do to the proposed pilot project. Everyone knows that the standard is just too low. Seneca will tell you otherwise however.
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worthyofed I knew you had to be a college guy based on your posts.
In Europe they are set up to incorporate new pilots into the system and are only doing it because they have to. At least they recognise the pilots for what they are, INEXPERIENCED a nd taylor their traning accordingly!
Jazz will have no such program and will more than likely be giving them the same course that a 3000 hour twin turbine captain would get. Most pilots at Jazz believe it is a financially based program and are worried that the margin for safety is being lowered to save $$$$$!!! Management will never admit to it but most talk in the crewrooms is the same and the general consesus is that dollars are driving this and not lack of resumes.
As for Jazz guys being on their high horse, you got it all wrong and the only reason you do is becuase you don't have enough experince to even know what they are talking about. You might be offended by the notion that a 250 hours pilot is not as easy to fly with as say someone who has 3000 hours, some turbine time and has been in a real cloud! Too bad! It is the truth. With time comes experience and 250 hours in the circuit with an instructor is not the same as pouding gravel with Bearskin for a season or two!
All I can say is I hope that if they follow through with this ridiculous experiment that it blows up in their face and the college kids end up costing them a shitload of money in the end.
In Europe they are set up to incorporate new pilots into the system and are only doing it because they have to. At least they recognise the pilots for what they are, INEXPERIENCED a nd taylor their traning accordingly!
Jazz will have no such program and will more than likely be giving them the same course that a 3000 hour twin turbine captain would get. Most pilots at Jazz believe it is a financially based program and are worried that the margin for safety is being lowered to save $$$$$!!! Management will never admit to it but most talk in the crewrooms is the same and the general consesus is that dollars are driving this and not lack of resumes.
As for Jazz guys being on their high horse, you got it all wrong and the only reason you do is becuase you don't have enough experince to even know what they are talking about. You might be offended by the notion that a 250 hours pilot is not as easy to fly with as say someone who has 3000 hours, some turbine time and has been in a real cloud! Too bad! It is the truth. With time comes experience and 250 hours in the circuit with an instructor is not the same as pouding gravel with Bearskin for a season or two!
All I can say is I hope that if they follow through with this ridiculous experiment that it blows up in their face and the college kids end up costing them a shitload of money in the end.
Sure airlines in europe have used college grads for years....they've had too.....
....But there is a huge difference between flying ILS to ILS at major airports (perhaps even on auto-land) and doing circling NDB approaches at night in blowing snow to minimums in places like Terrace with a Captain who's 63 and perhaps not the sharpest knife in the drawer anymore.
There is NO substitute for experience.
....But there is a huge difference between flying ILS to ILS at major airports (perhaps even on auto-land) and doing circling NDB approaches at night in blowing snow to minimums in places like Terrace with a Captain who's 63 and perhaps not the sharpest knife in the drawer anymore.
There is NO substitute for experience.
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DAVE THE RAVE
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I think before you make statements like that you should look at the route network of some of these airlines. For the guys at Ryanair, an ILS to ILS day is something of a luxury. They fly to secondary airports with non-precision circling approaches. Buy the way, Canada isn't the only country in the world that gets dumped on by old man winter. Hmm...Finland, Norway, Sweden, Germany, Austria, Poland.JZA wrote:Sure airlines in europe have used college grads for years....they've had too.....
....But there is a huge difference between flying ILS to ILS at major airports (perhaps even on auto-land) and doing circling NDB approaches at night in blowing snow to minimums in places like Terrace with a Captain who's 63 and perhaps not the sharpest knife in the drawer anymore.
Dave The Rave.....
Does RyanAir have/hire from a college program? ..... you're certainly right though that the Scandanavian countries also offer some very challenging flying.
The program that an airline like Lufthansa puts its students through though to get to that stage is a bit more structured/specific than any college program offered here in Canada though.
Having said all that I still maintain that all things being equal, you can't beat experience. ......and I don't just mean flying experience......I mean work experience.....aviation experience......life experience. It sounds to me that Jazz may be looking at hiring some individuals who may well have never had a job before in there life.....let alone worked for an airline part-time doing check-in/ramp what have you.
Does RyanAir have/hire from a college program? ..... you're certainly right though that the Scandanavian countries also offer some very challenging flying.
The program that an airline like Lufthansa puts its students through though to get to that stage is a bit more structured/specific than any college program offered here in Canada though.
Having said all that I still maintain that all things being equal, you can't beat experience. ......and I don't just mean flying experience......I mean work experience.....aviation experience......life experience. It sounds to me that Jazz may be looking at hiring some individuals who may well have never had a job before in there life.....let alone worked for an airline part-time doing check-in/ramp what have you.
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Jaques Strappe
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If anyone does not think that this initiative is not economic based, then you would be pretty naive.
Sure as shit, some Six Sigma who wanted to earn his/her black belt, opened up a Private Pilot magazine and saw all the ads about Regional Operations south of the border.
Wait for it, "for another $25K you can continue your education by getting an endorsement on a DHC8 or CL-65 while gaining valuable airline operation experience with Canada's largest regional carrier". All the while, diluting the industry even more.
They will probably associate themselves with an acredited school so the taxpayer can also foot part of the bill.
Do you think the Captains will get paid anymore to train and keep an eye on these guys? I doubt many will be leaving the cockpit to use the bathroom either. I hope that ALPA stomps all over this for the obvious safety concerns. Nothing against new aviation grads but most Captains are already busy enough with all the downloading going on, what is needed is an experienced team-mate to safely keep up with the pace, not a student.
Sure as shit, some Six Sigma who wanted to earn his/her black belt, opened up a Private Pilot magazine and saw all the ads about Regional Operations south of the border.
Wait for it, "for another $25K you can continue your education by getting an endorsement on a DHC8 or CL-65 while gaining valuable airline operation experience with Canada's largest regional carrier". All the while, diluting the industry even more.
They will probably associate themselves with an acredited school so the taxpayer can also foot part of the bill.
Do you think the Captains will get paid anymore to train and keep an eye on these guys? I doubt many will be leaving the cockpit to use the bathroom either. I hope that ALPA stomps all over this for the obvious safety concerns. Nothing against new aviation grads but most Captains are already busy enough with all the downloading going on, what is needed is an experienced team-mate to safely keep up with the pace, not a student.
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JS: agreed.
It will also look pretty poorly on the jazz pilot group when they try to work towards a tolerable salary for the FO's during the next contract talks. Why pay for experience when you could probably pay far less in salaries to 200hr wonders looking to undercut the industry?
It will also look pretty poorly on the jazz pilot group when they try to work towards a tolerable salary for the FO's during the next contract talks. Why pay for experience when you could probably pay far less in salaries to 200hr wonders looking to undercut the industry?
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rusty nail
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Cat Driver
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Interesting dichotomy of thoughts there.Terrace with a Captain who's 63 and perhaps not the sharpest knife in the drawer anymore.
There is NO substitute for experience.
Is 63 an age where one is supposed to get duller?
If so I must be pretty dangerous to fly with now.
So tell me where does age start to put experience at risk?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
There was little age-related decline in domain knowledge in this study. Older
pilots, on average, had more total flying-hours than did younger pilots (although
recent hours declined in the oldest group), and they experienced only small de-
clines on the ATC knowledge test. Age-related declines were also minimal for
knowledge-based performance measures, such as plausible readback errors (also
see Morrow, Menard, Stine-Morrow, et aI., 200 I). Nonetheless, this preserved ex-
pertise did not moderate such declines on the domain-relevant aviation tasks. As
in Morrow, Menard, Stine-Morrow, et al. (2001), age had a similar impact for pi-
lots and nonpilots on the readback task, even though more of the information in
the ATC messages was probed in this study in order to encourage nonpilots as well
as pilots to read back the complete message and thus to equate the difficulty of the
readback task for the two groups. Older pilots did not make use of their
domain knowledge in order to maintain the same level of performance
as younger pilots in the face of declines in cognitive abilities, such as working
memory capacity.
In addition to the readback task, expertise did not moderate age-related de-
clines on the probe task. This finding, together with the fact that pilots and non-
pilots experienced similar declines on the spatial ability measure, discounts one
explanation for mitigation effects in Morrow, Menard, Stine-Morrow, et al.
(200 I). In that study, we suggested that older pilots could have benefited from the
environmental support provided by the navigation chart in order to answer the
probe questions, because they were expert in using charts to maintain situation
awareness. Alternatively, older pilots could have maintained performance on the
probe task because of preserved spatial ability: The older pilots in that study did
not significantly decline on the spatial task, but nonpilots did. Because this study
did not find mitigation for a sample in which pilots as well as nonpilots experi-
enced age-related spatial declines, age effects on the probe task in the earlier study
were probably mitigated by preserved spatial ability among older pilots in that
study rather than by compensatory use of the navigational chart
found that on a quick search.
http://www.humanfactors.uiuc.edu/Report ... lbry03.pdf
there's the rest if you're interested
pilots, on average, had more total flying-hours than did younger pilots (although
recent hours declined in the oldest group), and they experienced only small de-
clines on the ATC knowledge test. Age-related declines were also minimal for
knowledge-based performance measures, such as plausible readback errors (also
see Morrow, Menard, Stine-Morrow, et aI., 200 I). Nonetheless, this preserved ex-
pertise did not moderate such declines on the domain-relevant aviation tasks. As
in Morrow, Menard, Stine-Morrow, et al. (2001), age had a similar impact for pi-
lots and nonpilots on the readback task, even though more of the information in
the ATC messages was probed in this study in order to encourage nonpilots as well
as pilots to read back the complete message and thus to equate the difficulty of the
readback task for the two groups. Older pilots did not make use of their
domain knowledge in order to maintain the same level of performance
as younger pilots in the face of declines in cognitive abilities, such as working
memory capacity.
In addition to the readback task, expertise did not moderate age-related de-
clines on the probe task. This finding, together with the fact that pilots and non-
pilots experienced similar declines on the spatial ability measure, discounts one
explanation for mitigation effects in Morrow, Menard, Stine-Morrow, et al.
(200 I). In that study, we suggested that older pilots could have benefited from the
environmental support provided by the navigation chart in order to answer the
probe questions, because they were expert in using charts to maintain situation
awareness. Alternatively, older pilots could have maintained performance on the
probe task because of preserved spatial ability: The older pilots in that study did
not significantly decline on the spatial task, but nonpilots did. Because this study
did not find mitigation for a sample in which pilots as well as nonpilots experi-
enced age-related spatial declines, age effects on the probe task in the earlier study
were probably mitigated by preserved spatial ability among older pilots in that
study rather than by compensatory use of the navigational chart
found that on a quick search.
http://www.humanfactors.uiuc.edu/Report ... lbry03.pdf
there's the rest if you're interested
more:
Cognitive Ability
Everybody has about 100 billion brain cells that are interconnected through a complicated communications network. They transport signals and ensure that we can remember names or dates, for example, when we need them. But stress, an improper diet or medication can reduce our cognitive ability. Free radicals can also have a negative impact on our cognitive ability. These aggressive oxygen molecules are released during the normal metabolic process and even more so under stress, pollution or exposure to the sun. They damage and destroy cells. As a result, the brain’s ability suffers. Our body does have its own mechanisms to repair itself but these become less and less with age. Therefore, older people in particular often note that their memory is not what it used to be and they cannot concentrate as well as they used to.
seems like memory is an issue at some point. Can't find anything that would directly link hands and feet vs aging though. I think the first article does well to explain that the older guys for the most part overcome the effects of aging with experience. However, I personally believe at a certain point, which would vary from person to person, you hit the wall where your greater experience cannot overcome your decreased ability. It's no different than driving a car. Some elderly people are safe to drive a car at 80 or 85 years old where some lose their ability to keep up at a much younger age. I'm sure you're fiesty enough to be on the top end of the curve ..
(=
Cognitive Ability
Everybody has about 100 billion brain cells that are interconnected through a complicated communications network. They transport signals and ensure that we can remember names or dates, for example, when we need them. But stress, an improper diet or medication can reduce our cognitive ability. Free radicals can also have a negative impact on our cognitive ability. These aggressive oxygen molecules are released during the normal metabolic process and even more so under stress, pollution or exposure to the sun. They damage and destroy cells. As a result, the brain’s ability suffers. Our body does have its own mechanisms to repair itself but these become less and less with age. Therefore, older people in particular often note that their memory is not what it used to be and they cannot concentrate as well as they used to.
seems like memory is an issue at some point. Can't find anything that would directly link hands and feet vs aging though. I think the first article does well to explain that the older guys for the most part overcome the effects of aging with experience. However, I personally believe at a certain point, which would vary from person to person, you hit the wall where your greater experience cannot overcome your decreased ability. It's no different than driving a car. Some elderly people are safe to drive a car at 80 or 85 years old where some lose their ability to keep up at a much younger age. I'm sure you're fiesty enough to be on the top end of the curve ..
(=
Cat Driver wrote:Interesting dichotomy of thoughts there.Terrace with a Captain who's 63 and perhaps not the sharpest knife in the drawer anymore.
There is NO substitute for experience.
Is 63 an age where one is supposed to get duller?
If so I must be pretty dangerous to fly with now.
So tell me where does age start to put experience at risk?
change your avatar...
or
Drinking outside the box.
Oh no....no offence was intended!
I merely used age 63 as an example. Everyone ages differently....some better than others. Some people are sharp as a tack (mentally & physically) at 70....while others start to feel and show the effects of aging in their 50s. It's nothing to feel bad about...it's a fact of life.
Lets take Vision for example.....I think most would agree that on average a twenty year old has better night vision as compared to someone twice his age.
Anyways...no offence was intended to the 63 year olds on this forum.
I merely used age 63 as an example. Everyone ages differently....some better than others. Some people are sharp as a tack (mentally & physically) at 70....while others start to feel and show the effects of aging in their 50s. It's nothing to feel bad about...it's a fact of life.
Lets take Vision for example.....I think most would agree that on average a twenty year old has better night vision as compared to someone twice his age.
Anyways...no offence was intended to the 63 year olds on this forum.
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DAVE THE RAVE
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nofoodforyou
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I think that the most regretable thing in this story is that there are still lots of qualified pilots working hard within 3rd level companies that would love and get in to Jazz.....those guys fly KA, MU2, 1900's, Navajo's, Jetstreams dreaming of getting a call...and the motivation is to get more experience so they get a phone call....!!
The grads will do an ok jobs in the right seat and like some of the experienced guys, some will be sharp and some won't....their LI will be longer and that is it....
NOW, while understanding the "shortage" Canada is experiencing, it might be premature fishing in this tank...maybe in a year or so would have been better, giving a chance to the guys that are currently gaining operational experience to get a shot @jazz
Lots of airlines in Europe do it, it works, but we have to realize that those are Ab-initio programs that are extremely well structured !! Sorry to say but Nothing comparable....
It would be too bad to see the aviation in Canada become like Europe: a selection by Education and Money versus Skills and motivation!! And I am not saying skills and education are not compatible....just saying that not everybody with skills have money to go to College or university...
Just my thoughts....Good luck to all !!!
The grads will do an ok jobs in the right seat and like some of the experienced guys, some will be sharp and some won't....their LI will be longer and that is it....
NOW, while understanding the "shortage" Canada is experiencing, it might be premature fishing in this tank...maybe in a year or so would have been better, giving a chance to the guys that are currently gaining operational experience to get a shot @jazz
Lots of airlines in Europe do it, it works, but we have to realize that those are Ab-initio programs that are extremely well structured !! Sorry to say but Nothing comparable....
It would be too bad to see the aviation in Canada become like Europe: a selection by Education and Money versus Skills and motivation!! And I am not saying skills and education are not compatible....just saying that not everybody with skills have money to go to College or university...
Just my thoughts....Good luck to all !!!
Hi guys,
I understand your hard feelings about this program. I'm graduating from CQFA (Chicoutimi) this year and I've been selected with 3 other grads to participate to this program. First, all 18 selected candidates from aviation colleges will be going to Toronto for a 4 days selection. After that, they will select 8 of us to begin the training on September 10th.
Now, here's what I've read. 8 grads is the maximum they will hire this year. They aren't oblige to hire the 8 of them. If noone reaches the high standards of Jazz, nobody will be hired, period.
What do I think about it? Well, if you were in my situation at the begining of your career and you had this opportunity, you would give it a shot too. Do I think I can reach these standards? I don't know. And Jazz don't know it either, that's why it's a project. All I know is that I'm going to try and give the best I can out there. If it does work out, nice. If it doesn't, I'll do the usual background required and reapply in 5 or 6 years.
I'm not foolish, I know it's going to be a hell of a step out there if it works, but I hope that Jazz captains will be helping me catching up the train instead of leaving me on my own.
Think about it, what would you guys do in my situation?
Thanks for reading.
I understand your hard feelings about this program. I'm graduating from CQFA (Chicoutimi) this year and I've been selected with 3 other grads to participate to this program. First, all 18 selected candidates from aviation colleges will be going to Toronto for a 4 days selection. After that, they will select 8 of us to begin the training on September 10th.
Now, here's what I've read. 8 grads is the maximum they will hire this year. They aren't oblige to hire the 8 of them. If noone reaches the high standards of Jazz, nobody will be hired, period.
What do I think about it? Well, if you were in my situation at the begining of your career and you had this opportunity, you would give it a shot too. Do I think I can reach these standards? I don't know. And Jazz don't know it either, that's why it's a project. All I know is that I'm going to try and give the best I can out there. If it does work out, nice. If it doesn't, I'll do the usual background required and reapply in 5 or 6 years.
I'm not foolish, I know it's going to be a hell of a step out there if it works, but I hope that Jazz captains will be helping me catching up the train instead of leaving me on my own.
Think about it, what would you guys do in my situation?
Thanks for reading.
I don't think that anyone is pissed at the Grads themselves as most of us would jump at this opportunity at the start of our careers.....But rather we're pissed at management and their black, green sigma counterparts for coming up with this idea in the first place instead of fixing the root cause of the pilot turnover issue here at Jazz.
As for "worthyofed".....come back to your posts in 3 to 4 years after cutting your teeth in the "real world" and only then will you realize how silly you sound.[/quote]
As for "worthyofed".....come back to your posts in 3 to 4 years after cutting your teeth in the "real world" and only then will you realize how silly you sound.[/quote]
Dave, have you had a look at the "cadet" program at Ryanair? That is the only way to get in there with 200hrs. Its basically an intensive type rating course that the student PAYS for. (roughly around 26,000-29,000 pounds) plus your airfare, accomodation etc. After that they do their circuits and up to 120 Sectors of line indoc. Not quite the same as what Jazz is proposing...DAVE THE RAVE wrote:They do hire 200 hour pilots. So do many others ie. EasyJet, Air Berlin, SkyEurope, German Wings....and also the big flag carriers.JZA wrote: Does RyanAir have/hire from a college program?
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Cat Driver
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One of the guys I was flying with last year in Amsterdam was a sim training instructor part time for Ryan Air.
The 73-800 type rating was 40,000 euro around 27,000 pound sterling.
The 73-800 type rating was 40,000 euro around 27,000 pound sterling.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
First of all I would like to say congradulations on your selection and I wish you the best of luck. It is a great opportunity , an option that was not available when I graduated college.
I do not support it however. The excuse that Jazz management has for this program is because of a shortage of pilots. It is a reality that there are large numbers of pilots quitting Jazz and leaving to Westjet, Cathay, and a token few to Air Canada.
If management was sincere about the shortage of pilots they would attempt to keep pilots at Jazz by giving them a future. $50000/yr rgt seat for life is not a future when AC is giving EMB left seats almost to new hires.
I do not support it however. The excuse that Jazz management has for this program is because of a shortage of pilots. It is a reality that there are large numbers of pilots quitting Jazz and leaving to Westjet, Cathay, and a token few to Air Canada.
If management was sincere about the shortage of pilots they would attempt to keep pilots at Jazz by giving them a future. $50000/yr rgt seat for life is not a future when AC is giving EMB left seats almost to new hires.
