Finding a GOOD apprentice
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Finding a GOOD apprentice
We're looking at hiring an apprentice for the summer season- something we've never done before. Now, with an experienced engineer, previous work experience, references, etc. can shed quite a bit of light on the individual. How do you find an apprentice who understands how the real world works (no gold-plating, good shopper, long strange hours, impossible bosses...), isn't a dog-fuc#er, takes pride in their work, and above all is talented at what they do. My engineer has suggested I call the Colleges to see if there's anyone they recommend. What do you all think?
Aviation- the hardest way possible to make an easy living!
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
Apprentice
I can relate, I find that alot of apprentices that are coming out of college these days are too picky, they don't want to do alot of the tasks that is involved in maintaining an airplane. They come out of school and figure that they should be rigging flight controls and changing engines. Calling colleges would be a great start but how can an instructor know that the candidate would be a good worker and realize how the industry really works.
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Troubleshot
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alot of the times the Best AME apprentices I've worked with are guys/girls with a family or have been the work force for a while and are starting a new career...and not just getting outta high school a year and a half ago. I have had good young apprentices but the best ones have been older.
Hey Tids
First off, good luck finding someone for a seasonal postion. Right now companies are fighting to get the good apprentices in full time permanent positions. The market is really tight right now with anyone in the maintenance dept. Wages are going up because other companies are offering more to try and poach staff.
If you want seasonal, go to your local high school and find someone with a good mechanical background who isn't scared to work. You might have more luck that way.
Good luck..
First off, good luck finding someone for a seasonal postion. Right now companies are fighting to get the good apprentices in full time permanent positions. The market is really tight right now with anyone in the maintenance dept. Wages are going up because other companies are offering more to try and poach staff.
If you want seasonal, go to your local high school and find someone with a good mechanical background who isn't scared to work. You might have more luck that way.
Good luck..
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Cat Driver
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If you want seasonal, go to your local high school and find someone with a good mechanical background who isn't scared to work. You might have more luck that way.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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Sounds to me like he already has a licensed engineer and he is looking for a dependable good work ethics helper.Sounds to me like you are expecting too much. Or you are looking for AME quality at apprentice wages.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Unless you steal a "good apprentice" from someone else, you will have to make your own. IMHO good apprentices are made, not found. You have to start with the clay you are given and mold it into the apprentice you want. It takes time, patience, and guidance to make a good apprentice. Oh, and just about the time you have him/her finished, he/she will get the licence, and you get to start all over again, making a useful engineer out of a smart-ass know-it-all.
Again, it takes time, etc but in the end, if you are careful, it's worth it.
It's a good feeling to watch a young person grow into a skilled tradesman. (tradeswoman)
Again, it takes time, etc but in the end, if you are careful, it's worth it.
It's a good feeling to watch a young person grow into a skilled tradesman. (tradeswoman)
If you don't know,ASK!
"Do or do not..there is no try"
"Do or do not..there is no try"
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log sheet
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Hey, If your looking for an inexperienced helper for the summer go to the college like your engineer said. Look for the kid who looks a little scared, he will work his hind end off for you in exchange for the experience you will give him!
The guy who knows how the world works is obviously going to be a little older but be careful this guy could be stuck in his ways.
If you need someone who can work with little supervision advertise for that! Talented at what the do!If the guy has only been a student that is probally his only talent!
Good luck!
CHEERS!
The guy who knows how the world works is obviously going to be a little older but be careful this guy could be stuck in his ways.
If you need someone who can work with little supervision advertise for that! Talented at what the do!If the guy has only been a student that is probally his only talent!
Good luck!
CHEERS!
GIT-R-DONE!
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tellyourkidstogetarealjob
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- Location: Cascadia
Re: Finding a GOOD apprentice
Here, you silver tongued devil, I'll give you a few more to add:... How do you find an apprentice who understands how the real world works (no gold-plating, good shopper, long strange hours, impossible bosses...), isn't a dog-fuc#er, takes pride in their work, and above all is talented at what they do... What do you all think?
Must enjoy the occasional, "You should feel grateful you even have a job."
Must enjoy being assigned menial tasks that add nothing to their log book after spending two years and tens of thousands of dollars to learn their job and thinking, " Why doesn't this cheap-ass company hire a high school summer student to do this crap for the same money as me instead of wasting my time?" (into each life a certain number of menial tasks must fall but there's a difference between paying your dues and having your investment pissed against the wall by an exploitiing arsehole)
Must enjoy watching the company owner complain about the cost of renovating their 2nd, 3rd, or 4th rental property while looking at their own barely-at-minimum-wage paycheque.
Must enjoy company owner wringing his hands and telling him, "There's no money in this," while company owner's still teenage son drives around in brand new sports car.
Must enjoy being supervised by licensed pricks who feel threatened by anyone who shows talent or intelligence. The one's who are the worst are usually the ones that couldn't get a job anywhere else because they're either useless or have anti-social tendencies.
Must really, really enjoy an employer who's too lazy and cheap to train and expects talent to drop into their hands (I agree strongly with ROSCOE on this).
And, finally, must especially enjoy talking to their friends in other industries who laugh at them for being so STUPID for picking such an ignorant, cheap, stuck-in-the-past industry.
*******************************************************
Typically, in other industries, a starting apprentice earns around 60% of a journeymans' wage.
There are still cheap outfits trying to pay 20 hour for a license but on the whole, 25 hour is a minimum. Thirty if they want to keep them. That equate's to 15-18 for an starter. For the first six months.
Before you compain about the lack of talent, are you paying this?
You're fast to criticise but not to advertise what you pay.
No offense intended if you do pay well but it's a common theme to hear employers complain about no one available while offering a pittance.
I've trained apprentices only to see them leave for other industries and I don't blame them compared to what aviation offers.
My own sons won't touch it. Why do you think my handle is what it is?
As far as I'm concerned, any employer who pays shite while returning nothing back into the industry, (ie supporting the schools; corporate sponsorship of colleges in Canada is significantly lower than in the U.S.) is nothing better than a corporate welfare case. If you are not putting in you have no reason to complain about what you're getting out.
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Cat Driver
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I have no idea what Airtid's is going to pay but I'm sure he will try and support a school.As far as I'm concerned, any employer who pays shite while returning nothing back into the industry, (ie supporting the schools;
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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tellyourkidstogetarealjob
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- Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:11 am
- Location: Cascadia
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
tellyourkids, I know Airtids and he really does try and run good operation been there several times and it is a real nice operation.
I wish him luck as it is a tough road to travel trying to wring a living out of a small flight school.
I wish him luck as it is a tough road to travel trying to wring a living out of a small flight school.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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wrenchingirl
- Rank 2
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- Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:10 am
Your best bet is to try and get someone who is just finishing their first year of the maintenance program. The majority of grads that are worth hiring have jobs lined up already. Actually some companies have been recruiting from our first year students already. Thunderbay has a high school aviation co-op program, might be worth looking into. Good luck.
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tellyourkidstogetarealjob
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- Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:11 am
- Location: Cascadia
Yes, it is tough trying to make a go of it in a flight school.
I actually mean no malice, only success to Airtids.
My first apprentice experience was with one of the worst companies in this industry (Gee! Can you tell?).
Now, much time later, I have to watch management low-ball good help and see them leave in disgust.
As a result, it's like poking me with a cattle prod when I read those kind of comments.
I actually mean no malice, only success to Airtids.
My first apprentice experience was with one of the worst companies in this industry (Gee! Can you tell?).
Now, much time later, I have to watch management low-ball good help and see them leave in disgust.
As a result, it's like poking me with a cattle prod when I read those kind of comments.
Good luck getting any info out of college instructors on the students. I went to NLC and while we were there, they told us that they would not and could not give out any recommendation on students.
But then again, I know some of the instructors that have summer jobs and they tend to lose the "Instructor Coat"....get them in the bar and they would probably give you some info.
Good Luck....
But then again, I know some of the instructors that have summer jobs and they tend to lose the "Instructor Coat"....get them in the bar and they would probably give you some info.
Good Luck....
Whoa tellyourkids!! Go easy on the assumptions and judgements, would ya!? What kind of comments did I make that "prodded" you? Was it simply that I'm here as an owner looking for help with a staff issue so you automaticaly figured I was some fat-cat looking for a cheapskate path to quality-but-soon-to-be-disenchanted talent? Not every operator out here is like the one whose picture you're painting. You're obviously bitter, but at least you have the strength to have humour about it- I think I can respect that. Please don't associate us with the big operations who have left that terrible scar on your soul- we are not that guy! Sorry you had such a bad experience, but please, don't lay your baggage at my feet. I'm not looking for a slave- I'm trying to avoid ending up with a lazy, antisocial, useless tit, and I really didn't think that would be expecting too much; but I also know what too many of today's youth are like. I know your rant wasn't necessarily directed at us (hate to think I'm the "exploiting arsehole" you mentioned), but I feel a little slighted by your comments, so for the benefit of others reading, I'm gonna respond:
Maybe I needed to be a little clearer. We DO already have an engineer, it's just that he's also a rotary pilot, and gets pretty busy during the summer, so we need some extra help. I was the apprentice last season (as well as doing the flying), but got run pretty ragged, and wanted to see my wife and daughter every now and then. I don't want to do the same thing again this year, so figured it would be a good opportunity for someone new looking for their start in a super-friendly, spectacular location. This is Nelson, not Fort-Saint-Prince-Port Nelson. Not a bad place to start out, and could work into year-round as well. Honestly, I was hoping someone here would see this and think "Wow, that would be a great spot for little Johnny (or Jenny), who's such a good kid, to cut their teeth, and NOT have to deal with the BS that I did". Maybe I was mistaken.
I asked my engineer what to pay an apprentice, and he gave me a value (which is within the range you mentioned, but not really relevant to the initial post, I didn't think), but said that would be for a GOOD one, which is why I asked the question here. I already have a College Kid working the ramp and the desk and doing the 'menial' shit (which she NEVER complains about, BTW). When I started out (and still do today), I did loads of 'menial' tasks, and what I learned is that there really aren't any 'menial' tasks- everything has to get done to make a small aviation business survive, and as the boss you give those tasks to the people who are around and available; yourself included. I'm sorry, but if the ballast in an office flourescent needs to be changed, you don't run out and hire an electrician to do it- you find someone who is capable and get them to do it. Alternatively, if everyone else is too busy, you struggle through (as you're probably not as capable as the apprentice)and do it yourself, trying desperately not to electrocute yourself in the process.
As well as running a charter operation and AMO, I create pilots from zero hours to valued employee- I don't need a lecture on the importance of training people to become good employees. That being said, I also know that there are plenty of dipshits who will never work out. I can weed these ones out in the pilot pool, but am new to the AME apprentice thing, so was hoping for some help. All I'm looking for are some tips to find some clay that is worth working with.
I'd love to be able to contribute to a school, but that is sort of out of our league- I can't even contribute to an RRSP! I give back to this industry every day that I go in to work by virtue of the career path I have taken, and the attitude I approach my industry with. We are a small company, in a small town, who believes there is more to a business than pure profit. It seems that the operations you have issues with are more typically far bigger, and run by bean-counters who see every decision as being dictated by dollars. Of course these operations are going to push, and squeeze, and alienate. They can't help it- it's their path to 'productivity' and 'success'. Too bad for them.
For the rest of you, thanks for the suggestions. Twotter, the Highschool thing is something I hadn't considered. We've got a good auto shop program at our school here, and I may be able to sweeten the pot by offering up hangar space and my tools to a kid with a cool project. And wrenchingirl, going after some folks after first year is also a good idea, especially when you consider HRSDC funding opportunities for those returning to school the next year. Thanks.
Cat, thanks for the support. While the going is often tough, I still really enjoy what I do (I even take a bit of sick pleasure out of dealing with the endless BS in this business), and I honestly think I'm closer to the 'pure' aviation that you knew in your day than most in this industry now could ever hope to be. I consider myself lucky.
And one last thing, tellyourkids: I hope my daughter will do whatever it is in this world that she wants to do, even if it happens to be pilot or engineer; but I'm with you in that I'll try my hardest to get her to see there are better routes to take to get what she wants than the one I did. Best of luck to you and your family- I hope you all get what you want.
Maybe I needed to be a little clearer. We DO already have an engineer, it's just that he's also a rotary pilot, and gets pretty busy during the summer, so we need some extra help. I was the apprentice last season (as well as doing the flying), but got run pretty ragged, and wanted to see my wife and daughter every now and then. I don't want to do the same thing again this year, so figured it would be a good opportunity for someone new looking for their start in a super-friendly, spectacular location. This is Nelson, not Fort-Saint-Prince-Port Nelson. Not a bad place to start out, and could work into year-round as well. Honestly, I was hoping someone here would see this and think "Wow, that would be a great spot for little Johnny (or Jenny), who's such a good kid, to cut their teeth, and NOT have to deal with the BS that I did". Maybe I was mistaken.
I asked my engineer what to pay an apprentice, and he gave me a value (which is within the range you mentioned, but not really relevant to the initial post, I didn't think), but said that would be for a GOOD one, which is why I asked the question here. I already have a College Kid working the ramp and the desk and doing the 'menial' shit (which she NEVER complains about, BTW). When I started out (and still do today), I did loads of 'menial' tasks, and what I learned is that there really aren't any 'menial' tasks- everything has to get done to make a small aviation business survive, and as the boss you give those tasks to the people who are around and available; yourself included. I'm sorry, but if the ballast in an office flourescent needs to be changed, you don't run out and hire an electrician to do it- you find someone who is capable and get them to do it. Alternatively, if everyone else is too busy, you struggle through (as you're probably not as capable as the apprentice)and do it yourself, trying desperately not to electrocute yourself in the process.
As well as running a charter operation and AMO, I create pilots from zero hours to valued employee- I don't need a lecture on the importance of training people to become good employees. That being said, I also know that there are plenty of dipshits who will never work out. I can weed these ones out in the pilot pool, but am new to the AME apprentice thing, so was hoping for some help. All I'm looking for are some tips to find some clay that is worth working with.
I'd love to be able to contribute to a school, but that is sort of out of our league- I can't even contribute to an RRSP! I give back to this industry every day that I go in to work by virtue of the career path I have taken, and the attitude I approach my industry with. We are a small company, in a small town, who believes there is more to a business than pure profit. It seems that the operations you have issues with are more typically far bigger, and run by bean-counters who see every decision as being dictated by dollars. Of course these operations are going to push, and squeeze, and alienate. They can't help it- it's their path to 'productivity' and 'success'. Too bad for them.
For the rest of you, thanks for the suggestions. Twotter, the Highschool thing is something I hadn't considered. We've got a good auto shop program at our school here, and I may be able to sweeten the pot by offering up hangar space and my tools to a kid with a cool project. And wrenchingirl, going after some folks after first year is also a good idea, especially when you consider HRSDC funding opportunities for those returning to school the next year. Thanks.
Cat, thanks for the support. While the going is often tough, I still really enjoy what I do (I even take a bit of sick pleasure out of dealing with the endless BS in this business), and I honestly think I'm closer to the 'pure' aviation that you knew in your day than most in this industry now could ever hope to be. I consider myself lucky.
And one last thing, tellyourkids: I hope my daughter will do whatever it is in this world that she wants to do, even if it happens to be pilot or engineer; but I'm with you in that I'll try my hardest to get her to see there are better routes to take to get what she wants than the one I did. Best of luck to you and your family- I hope you all get what you want.
Aviation- the hardest way possible to make an easy living!
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
Must enjoy the occasional, "You should feel grateful you even have a job."
It's strange but I have to agree with every point that "tellyourkids" made. I have experienced every one of them in my short time in the industry. I got that exact line from my DOM when I asked for a pay raise. I turned around and found another job as an apprentice for more than he would pay his licenced guys and now he hates my guts, what a loser.
I can't complain much about my current job, but if the wages don't soon reflect the work I do then I will leave this business like so many others have. I love aviation but holy S*** man you can't pay tradesmen poverty wages in this day and age and I will refuse to work work for less than a bloody plumber. No offence to plumbers.
It's strange but I have to agree with every point that "tellyourkids" made. I have experienced every one of them in my short time in the industry. I got that exact line from my DOM when I asked for a pay raise. I turned around and found another job as an apprentice for more than he would pay his licenced guys and now he hates my guts, what a loser.
I can't complain much about my current job, but if the wages don't soon reflect the work I do then I will leave this business like so many others have. I love aviation but holy S*** man you can't pay tradesmen poverty wages in this day and age and I will refuse to work work for less than a bloody plumber. No offence to plumbers.
WOW!! Some of you guys really must have had it rough when you stared out!!!
I got my start at a Float opp up in NW Ontario... I had to do The "menial tasks", and had no problem with it... yes the pay was low, but again I didn't complain... Why? Because of the fantastic amount of experience I got from that place. I have been licenced for a while now, and often I thank christ I was fortunate enough to get me start at a small bush opp.
AirTids definitely call the Colleges and let them know your looking for someone... If I remember correctly the college I went to posted stuff like that on the main board. I think its pretty cool that your willing to take a student for the summer... the time works as experience for them, and if they get to do some neat maintenance stuff it goes in their log book getting them closer to the license faster.
Kudos to you man!
Some of you guys really must have had it rough when you stared out!!!I got my start at a Float opp up in NW Ontario... I had to do The "menial tasks", and had no problem with it... yes the pay was low, but again I didn't complain... Why? Because of the fantastic amount of experience I got from that place. I have been licenced for a while now, and often I thank christ I was fortunate enough to get me start at a small bush opp.
AirTids definitely call the Colleges and let them know your looking for someone... If I remember correctly the college I went to posted stuff like that on the main board. I think its pretty cool that your willing to take a student for the summer... the time works as experience for them, and if they get to do some neat maintenance stuff it goes in their log book getting them closer to the license faster.
Kudos to you man!
[quote="Meecka"]I got my start at a Float opp up in NW Ontario... I had to do The "menial tasks", and had no problem with it... yes the pay was low, but again I didn't complain... Why? Because of the fantastic amount of experience I got from that place. [/quote]
Meecka you got me thinking with that statement. I'd say we've all been in that situation and for some it works out well and for some it does not. It is definitely a vulnerable position to be in.
I was thinking about it and wondering why it is that one has to sacrifice pay for good experience? Certainly there is the obvious rebuttal of why pay someone with zero experience a good wage. In contrast to a Uni program, for almost every program available there is a co-op program in place. Usually 4 years of education is extended to 5 years with co-op terms. Perhaps that would help the AME profession. At Canadore we did a one week work term in the second year. How useless is that?
Looking at it now it seems bizarre that after two years of schooling a student graduates and joins an industry that considers their knowledge and experience to be zero.
Meecka you got me thinking with that statement. I'd say we've all been in that situation and for some it works out well and for some it does not. It is definitely a vulnerable position to be in.
I was thinking about it and wondering why it is that one has to sacrifice pay for good experience? Certainly there is the obvious rebuttal of why pay someone with zero experience a good wage. In contrast to a Uni program, for almost every program available there is a co-op program in place. Usually 4 years of education is extended to 5 years with co-op terms. Perhaps that would help the AME profession. At Canadore we did a one week work term in the second year. How useless is that?
Looking at it now it seems bizarre that after two years of schooling a student graduates and joins an industry that considers their knowledge and experience to be zero.
