AC/Jazz GS company talks
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AC/Jazz GS company talks
Anyone heard if ACPA and ALPA have talked to the companies yet regarding Global Solutions?
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arewethereyet
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alls i heard is that ACPA was invited to meet witht he ALPA union president at headquarters last month. they declined due to the fact that thier membership was still not up to speed on what is taking place. the meeting in Washington is to take place sometime in may. but that could all be a rumour as well. so who really knows.
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Dark Helmet
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I been hearing that they (both groups + management)already had a meeting on April 2nd. Again I heard so many rumors about this one, from both sides of the spectrum however nothing official. One things is for sure it has been quiet for a while.
I guess no news is good news.
.......for now anyways.
Cheers
I guess no news is good news.
.......for now anyways. Cheers
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Lost in Saigon
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I don't think ACE will have much say in this matter. Either there is a case for common employer, (and a common list) or there isn't.
Besides. This is Canada. Labour laws tend to override the rights of the corporation.
I have heard that ACE has some VERY expensive lawyers doing their best to make sure it doesn't happen. Probably one of the reasons they split up the company into so many divisions.
Besides. This is Canada. Labour laws tend to override the rights of the corporation.
I have heard that ACE has some VERY expensive lawyers doing their best to make sure it doesn't happen. Probably one of the reasons they split up the company into so many divisions.
Common employer? That is not what is being attempted here.
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Teplitsky tell ALPA/ACPA to get their shit together and make a deal to stop the fighting? I believe I heard something about that some time ago.
Without a GS, BOTH sides will hammered in 2009. I know that is hard to believe with all the hiring going on and new planes showing up etc... but look at the stuff going on around the country. The new "GREEN" movement is gaining momentum and our Gov't has said that our emissions will be cut back even at the expense of about 8 BILLION dollars to the economy. When the fuel prices are going through the roof, who do you think management is going to call on to give concessions?
On top of that, the economy will make a good case for AC threatening to move the EMBs to Jazz and getting concessions from ALPA and ACPA to see who gets to fly the planes. They could have zero intention of moving them but the threat is a bargaining chip at the table, a BIG chip. What are both sides prepared to do to get/keep planes on the property?
Better go to your doctor and have a secure plug installed in your asses because 2009 ain't gonna be much fun!
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Teplitsky tell ALPA/ACPA to get their shit together and make a deal to stop the fighting? I believe I heard something about that some time ago.
Without a GS, BOTH sides will hammered in 2009. I know that is hard to believe with all the hiring going on and new planes showing up etc... but look at the stuff going on around the country. The new "GREEN" movement is gaining momentum and our Gov't has said that our emissions will be cut back even at the expense of about 8 BILLION dollars to the economy. When the fuel prices are going through the roof, who do you think management is going to call on to give concessions?
On top of that, the economy will make a good case for AC threatening to move the EMBs to Jazz and getting concessions from ALPA and ACPA to see who gets to fly the planes. They could have zero intention of moving them but the threat is a bargaining chip at the table, a BIG chip. What are both sides prepared to do to get/keep planes on the property?
Better go to your doctor and have a secure plug installed in your asses because 2009 ain't gonna be much fun!
everyone has the rose coloured glasses on. ACE will never let the tail wag the dog. If you think that ace has no say your dead wrong. Who runs the company ACPA or ACE? My second opinion is that whip saw will be alive and well in 2009. What better a bargaining chip then to have a play with a lower cost pilot group. It will never be changed...it's too easy to have it this way. What a great company. Glad I can grab my cheque and leave. Congrats on your upgrade Jeremy, you owe your dad a beer eh?..lol.
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Brick Head
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Traf,
You write as if you think we are still in CCAA, during which we had very little control over our collective bargaining. Not the case at the moment. Everyone has the strike card this time around.
Lost in Saigon,
Common employer???????????
Yer kidden me right?
Been der dun dat........and lost ......and that was when Jazz was a subsidiary of Air Canada.
Jazz and Air Canada are both controlled for the moment by ACE. ACE's ownership of Air Canada rests at 75% and Jazz at 58%. After the next share distribution Jazz will fall below 50%. Aeroplan is already at 40%. Analysts expect that by the end of 2008 ACE will have sold everything off and then wind itself down. Last year Milton said the same thing himself although gave no specific time line.
CCAA was just the start of a corporate restructuring that will culminate in 5 completely separate companies ( not related at all) They will be free to seek contracts with whoever they please as their present contracts expire. Being that is the corperate objective how do you think they will respond to a common list?
In order for a common list to take place you would have to get the approval of ALPA Jazz, ACPA, Jazz's BOD, Air Canada's BOD and realistically ACE's BOD. No one has a gun to their head on this. If anyone one of the participants says no there is nothing anyone of us can do about it.
That is why ACPA and Jazz have requested a meeting with the various company executives. To canvass their response to this initiative. A preliminary step to gauge their interest and support of the idea.
In other words there is no point in putting the time and effort into some monumental agreement only to have the company say no thanks.
As for the date of that meeting? Don't know. Don't even know if the request was granted.
Don't hold your breath.
You write as if you think we are still in CCAA, during which we had very little control over our collective bargaining. Not the case at the moment. Everyone has the strike card this time around.
Lost in Saigon,
Common employer???????????
Yer kidden me right?
Been der dun dat........and lost ......and that was when Jazz was a subsidiary of Air Canada.
Jazz and Air Canada are both controlled for the moment by ACE. ACE's ownership of Air Canada rests at 75% and Jazz at 58%. After the next share distribution Jazz will fall below 50%. Aeroplan is already at 40%. Analysts expect that by the end of 2008 ACE will have sold everything off and then wind itself down. Last year Milton said the same thing himself although gave no specific time line.
CCAA was just the start of a corporate restructuring that will culminate in 5 completely separate companies ( not related at all) They will be free to seek contracts with whoever they please as their present contracts expire. Being that is the corperate objective how do you think they will respond to a common list?
In order for a common list to take place you would have to get the approval of ALPA Jazz, ACPA, Jazz's BOD, Air Canada's BOD and realistically ACE's BOD. No one has a gun to their head on this. If anyone one of the participants says no there is nothing anyone of us can do about it.
That is why ACPA and Jazz have requested a meeting with the various company executives. To canvass their response to this initiative. A preliminary step to gauge their interest and support of the idea.
In other words there is no point in putting the time and effort into some monumental agreement only to have the company say no thanks.
As for the date of that meeting? Don't know. Don't even know if the request was granted.
Don't hold your breath.
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Dark Helmet
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linebacker35
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arewethereyet
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global solution is a merger of both jazz and air canada into one pilot group. be it ALPA or ACPA. both memberships will sometime have to vote in order to determine who will be the bargaining agent. the details of this merger are all speculative at this point as most of what anybody knows is just rumours. there will be fences in place to protect each pilot group from numerous items including layoffs. this GS is evolving in order to have a higher bargaining power in 2009 when both contracts expire. it will basically limit how the companies negotiate, as their famous razor sharp wipsaw will be more like a dull butter knife.
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Brick Head
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- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:37 pm
No No No No ................NO!arewethereyet wrote:global solution is a merger of both jazz and air canada into one pilot group. be it ALPA or ACPA. both memberships will sometime have to vote in order to determine who will be the bargaining agent. the details of this merger are all speculative at this point as most of what anybody knows is just rumours. there will be fences in place to protect each pilot group from numerous items including layoffs. this GS is evolving in order to have a higher bargaining power in 2009 when both contracts expire. it will basically limit how the companies negotiate, as their famous razor sharp wipsaw will be more like a dull butter knife.
There is some definite confusion over what is, and what is not, the Global Solution objective. Your above statement was accurate as to what GS meant 3 years ago. But not today. It is unfortunate that these present talks are still being referred to as GS discussions because that combined with the silence has lead to expectations that are not (likely) in tune with todays realities.
In today's environment a global solution may, or may not, include a single list or a single bargaining unit. A successful solution may be as simple as being at each others bargaining table. Possibly a joint negotiations strategy committee.
As for a single list and bargaining unit? It is possible, but no longer the ultimate objective of the talks. We may very well see a solution that has neither. The ultimate objective is to avoid being manipulated to our mutual detriment in 2009. Obviously the best way to make sure whipsaw does not take place is a single unit, but that will only happen if every group says yes ALPA, ACPA, JAZZ, ACE and AC. If any one group says no to a single list, it will not take place. There is no gun to any groups head.
If the corporations say no to a single unit this does not stop ACPA and JAZZ from still coming to a successful GS resolution. One that allows the two groups to work together in 2009 rather than against each other.
arewethereyet,
I think you answered your own question about the likelihood of corporate willingness to the single unit concept.
"This GS is evolving in order to have a higher bargaining power in 2009 when both contracts expire. it will basically limit how the companies negotiate, as their famous razor sharp whipsaw will be more like a dull butter knife"
If you were the company would you want that? The whole concept also fly's in the face of the direction that the corporate restructuring is evolving, which is completely separate stand alone companies that sink or swim on there own. Corporations that have to compete for work (contracts and CPA's) that used to be theirs. Driving labor costs down through competition with other labor groups.
We are always one step behind. To bad this willingness was not around 10 - 15 years ago. [/b]
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Dark Helmet
- Rank 6
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My best advice to anyone who is curious about GS and what it is all about is to contact your union. Whether be ALPA or ACPA and they will be able to give you an idea or refer to someone who can tell you what is trying to be accomplished. Again, this forum is based on individual opinions. Nothing wrong with that, but it in not accurate.
Cheers
Cheers
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Jaques Strappe
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Martin Tamme
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What is Global Solution all about? What are the objectives?
I believe I explained the objectives last July (under a thread-title that bore my name no less) before we embarked on this journey (http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=20553). It's 4 pages long, but well worth the read for those who hadn't read it, or forgotten about it.
Global Solution is more than just one common seniority list, or who represents whom. If any of you missed it, I will repost the letter from Andy Wilson (ACPA President) to the ACPA pilots dated July 2006 outlining the objectives:
Think Globally, Act Locally
Reflecting on the recent ASAP Convention
I recently returned from the ASAP meeting in Edinburgh, more certain than ever in the need for pilot unity around the world.
ACPA is a founding member of the Association of Star Alliance Pilots. ASAP meets twice a year to share information on the activities of the STAR Alliance around the world. The reports we hear are often chilling.
We hear about the union-busting activities of tramp airlines such as Ryanair. We hear about airlines with multiple bases in multiple countries, designed to take advantage of the diversity of laws, to shield the employer from both governments and it’s employees. We hear about pilots flying the same aircraft as you and me, living out of their cars.
Then we learn that the tactics within the Star Alliance are sometimes no better. We hear from the SAS pilots. With units in Denmark, Norway and Sweden, they have historically bargained as one unit. Recently SAS presented them with an ultimatum that they must negotiate separately, country by country. Only through unity and threatened strike action were they able to maintain unified rates of pay, hours of work and seniority.
The story is similar at Swissair. Swissair has already endured bankruptcy and the usual round of concessions. But more recently they were told they must accept a further 30% reduction in wages and work rules, or their flying would be simply transferred to Lufthansa, another Star carrier. This has only been staved off by the Swissair Pilots Association and Vereinigung Cockpit (the Lufthansa pilots union) working hand in hand to present a common front.
These stories are repeated around the world, within Star, the other alliances and amongst the unaligned. Carriers and alliances are becoming trans-national, presenting opportunities for cherry-picking amongst labour laws, safety regulations, financial restrictions and bilateral and multilateral agreements.
Many predict that once global restrictions are relaxed, the three alliances will become the three big airlines of the future. If this occurs, the opportunities to whipsaw pilots across national and continental borders will expand exponentially. Pilot groups must rise to meet this global challenge on an equal footing. ASAP understands this challenge. The lesson is clear. Divided, we fall.
“The whole object of travel is not to set foot on foreign land; it is at last to set foot on one’s own country as a foreign land.”
– G. K. Chesterton
ASAP is a useful mirror in which to better see ourselves. The details of our experience in Canada have been unique, but the themes are universal.
Ten years ago, CALPA collapsed due to internal tensions which proved insurmountable. A constant stream of crises then assaulted our profession. The Single Employer proceedings, strikes, lawsuits, mergers, recessions, LCCs, 9-11, SARS and CCAA all focused our attention inwards and set ourselves against each other.
ACPA has risen to these challenges. But the resulting bunker mentality has rendered us vulnerable going forward. Our relationship with Jazz is a case in point. The conflicts of the past have become nothing but a sad historical relic. The only tangible result has been a race to the bottom in regional jet pilot salaries on both sides of the fence. This has of course exerted further downward pressure on narrowbody flying. For instance, we have actually had Embraers in our fleet for over 40 years. Except they used to be called DC-9s and B737s. The only beneficiary has been ACE.
ACPA was founded on the basis of principles we hold dear. A permanent state of war is not one of those principles. The current division within our own Air Canada family cannot serve us well in the future. Nor can the continued division of all pilots in Canada. We must do our part in confronting the world challenge by first getting our own house in order.
One way or another, we must begin, step by step, to reunite the pilot community in Canada.
Andy Wilson
I believe I explained the objectives last July (under a thread-title that bore my name no less) before we embarked on this journey (http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=20553). It's 4 pages long, but well worth the read for those who hadn't read it, or forgotten about it.
Global Solution is more than just one common seniority list, or who represents whom. If any of you missed it, I will repost the letter from Andy Wilson (ACPA President) to the ACPA pilots dated July 2006 outlining the objectives:
Think Globally, Act Locally
Reflecting on the recent ASAP Convention
I recently returned from the ASAP meeting in Edinburgh, more certain than ever in the need for pilot unity around the world.
ACPA is a founding member of the Association of Star Alliance Pilots. ASAP meets twice a year to share information on the activities of the STAR Alliance around the world. The reports we hear are often chilling.
We hear about the union-busting activities of tramp airlines such as Ryanair. We hear about airlines with multiple bases in multiple countries, designed to take advantage of the diversity of laws, to shield the employer from both governments and it’s employees. We hear about pilots flying the same aircraft as you and me, living out of their cars.
Then we learn that the tactics within the Star Alliance are sometimes no better. We hear from the SAS pilots. With units in Denmark, Norway and Sweden, they have historically bargained as one unit. Recently SAS presented them with an ultimatum that they must negotiate separately, country by country. Only through unity and threatened strike action were they able to maintain unified rates of pay, hours of work and seniority.
The story is similar at Swissair. Swissair has already endured bankruptcy and the usual round of concessions. But more recently they were told they must accept a further 30% reduction in wages and work rules, or their flying would be simply transferred to Lufthansa, another Star carrier. This has only been staved off by the Swissair Pilots Association and Vereinigung Cockpit (the Lufthansa pilots union) working hand in hand to present a common front.
These stories are repeated around the world, within Star, the other alliances and amongst the unaligned. Carriers and alliances are becoming trans-national, presenting opportunities for cherry-picking amongst labour laws, safety regulations, financial restrictions and bilateral and multilateral agreements.
Many predict that once global restrictions are relaxed, the three alliances will become the three big airlines of the future. If this occurs, the opportunities to whipsaw pilots across national and continental borders will expand exponentially. Pilot groups must rise to meet this global challenge on an equal footing. ASAP understands this challenge. The lesson is clear. Divided, we fall.
“The whole object of travel is not to set foot on foreign land; it is at last to set foot on one’s own country as a foreign land.”
– G. K. Chesterton
ASAP is a useful mirror in which to better see ourselves. The details of our experience in Canada have been unique, but the themes are universal.
Ten years ago, CALPA collapsed due to internal tensions which proved insurmountable. A constant stream of crises then assaulted our profession. The Single Employer proceedings, strikes, lawsuits, mergers, recessions, LCCs, 9-11, SARS and CCAA all focused our attention inwards and set ourselves against each other.
ACPA has risen to these challenges. But the resulting bunker mentality has rendered us vulnerable going forward. Our relationship with Jazz is a case in point. The conflicts of the past have become nothing but a sad historical relic. The only tangible result has been a race to the bottom in regional jet pilot salaries on both sides of the fence. This has of course exerted further downward pressure on narrowbody flying. For instance, we have actually had Embraers in our fleet for over 40 years. Except they used to be called DC-9s and B737s. The only beneficiary has been ACE.
ACPA was founded on the basis of principles we hold dear. A permanent state of war is not one of those principles. The current division within our own Air Canada family cannot serve us well in the future. Nor can the continued division of all pilots in Canada. We must do our part in confronting the world challenge by first getting our own house in order.
One way or another, we must begin, step by step, to reunite the pilot community in Canada.
Andy Wilson
Well it was fun while it lasted.But it appears that things have come to a stop as
"the two groups can not agree on a common vision to move forward with"
That is truely amazing that we can't get it together and finally progress
this brutal state of conditions.
I guess we deserve what is about to happen next.
Now where did I put that damn WJ application
