Air Canada salary question

Rudy · Post by **Rudy** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:56 pm

I'm just wondering how long a new hire can expect to put in at mainline on average before you're making a good salary? Let's say 80k. Opinions?

yycflyguy · Post by **yycflyguy** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:47 pm

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines ... anada.html

The quick answer is as soon as you are off of flat pay or 2 years from your first line flight. If you are still in a pay group position you can expect ~$60k year 3.

Rudy · Post by **Rudy** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:24 am

According to that website a 3 year Emb f/o would be making around 50k. Am I not reading it right? 70 Hours a month at 60 bucks an hour. Also, how long are people sitting right seat now a days before an upgrade?

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:52 am

Rudy.
The present rate of retirement at AC means that advancement is reasonably quick. That is to say that if you choose so, you could probably hold the right seat of the 320 in three years, have reasonably good seniority on the Emb (right seat) or an RP on the widebodies. If you can hold the 320 you will make over $80k but anything else puts you in the pay group which I believe is in the $60-70k/yr range. The website quotes 70hrs but you will fly closer to 80 hrs a month so the website is understating the salary. You will also stand a good chance of holding the left seat of the Emb. If so, that salary is well over $100k/yr but you would pay the price of being on reserve with your seniority. The three year mark will offer you some choices. Some guys go for the $$$. Some go for the lifestyle. Carefull what you choose. To get more detailed info, the newhires should get in touch with ACPA. That's what they are there for. This forum would be the last place for info on bidding positions and salary. ACPA has a system in place to answer all your questions with more detailed answers. That's what you pay them for. There are choices to be made throughout your career at AC. A word of advice, always get advice from the experts. Not this forum. Welcome to AC.

Rudy · Post by **Rudy** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:27 pm

Thanks tony, exactly what was looking for. I don't work for Air Canada. Sorry if I gave that impression. I'm just trying to figure out if I want to down the road. Something I think this forum is great for.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:59 pm

Ok good luck Rudy.

macho macho man · Post by **macho macho man** » Sat May 05, 2007 10:24 pm

RP pay isn't shown on airlinepilotcentral for AC...how does RP pay compare to FO generally? Are "hard" numbers out there somewhere?

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sun May 06, 2007 3:19 am

ACPA pay tables show it. RP is about 20-30k less a year. However, I'm told the formula pay on the 777 for an RP (after 2 yrs of flat pay) is close to the f/o salary of a 67 f/o. That would put you around 120k in year three. The 777 RP is now an entry level position.

Sage · Post by **Sage** » Sun May 06, 2007 5:45 am

Tony, what about 67 or 340 rp pay? Thanks.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sun May 06, 2007 5:57 am

67 and 340 after flat pay put you in the low nineties. The numbers I've given are based on 80 hrs/month and don't include per diems. I believe the 320 f/o salary is just above that of the 67/340 RP. Also bear in mind there is an increase in pay with every year of service. The Jazz guys get some advantage here. The problem with RP positions for newcomers is that I believe you go in the pay group for three yrs when you're done flat pay. Pay group pay rates average between 65-75k a year. I believe the only way out of the PG is by bidding the 320 f/o position or left seat Emb after flat pay. Someone with more knowledge on this perhaps could respond.

Spruce Moose · Post by **Spruce Moose** » Sun May 06, 2007 7:07 am

What is the pay group? So RP pay after flat salary is in the low 90's, but there's no way for a newcomer who gets an RP position to get it because he gets put in the pay group after flat salary?

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sun May 06, 2007 8:11 am

Pay group is AC's way of having a b-scale type system. You're basically held from the normal higher salaries untill you're out of the PG (3 yrs after flat pay). If I understand this new system correctly, you won't see the 90k a yr unless you bid out of the PG which is 320 f/o or better still, left seat Emb, 130k a yr. You can only do this after flat pay- 2 years. After five years (2 flat, 3 PG), when you're off the group pay, you make the 90k a yr as an RP but most people will have gone to the 320 or left seat Emb by then. Chances of getting the 320 or left seat Emb after 2 yrs are good so I'm told. Basically it's the company's way of paying the RP and Emb F/O positions a lower salary. A sneaky deal but one that we voted in favour of. Go figure.

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Sun May 06, 2007 9:46 am

Tony, you are wrong about PG.

New hires will never make formula pay in any position that is designated PG. (Embraer FO or any RP position)

They will always get paid the blended PG pay. Even after they leave the PG for A320 FO or any higher position. The minute they bid down to RP, they immediately go back to PG pay. YOU ARE BRANDED AS A PG PILOT FOR LIFE!

This is fundamentally wrong and ACPA should be very embarrassed for ever agreeing to such a flawed scheme.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sun May 06, 2007 10:17 am

YOU ARE BRANDED AS A PG PILOT FOR LIFE!

So, let me get this straight. You have been with the company more than five years, on a 320 f/o and you decide to do overseas flying but can't hold an f/o on 67 so you bid rp 67. You're telling me you go back in the pay group? I actually know guys who did this same move and are not in the PG but are getting the formula pay for the RP 67 (90k yr.). Maybe it's because they are not newhires. What is the cutoff date? I can see what AC is doing, they are making certain positions entry level and paying them peanuts forever to encourage them to choose positions outside the PG. I would imagine this would take place in any case. I see this as a way of filling the seats that are hard to fill- left seat Emb and right seat 320. Something else to consider. ACPA held a vote on this. WE as a group are responsible for this.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sun May 06, 2007 10:18 am

Double post

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Sun May 06, 2007 10:59 am

The cutoff date used to be about 2000. I think it was the 273 "Surplus" guys who were the first in the Position Group.

The cutoff date is now about 2003.

Do you remember the LOU vote we had not to long ago?

It added 320 FO as a newhire position, got rid of the upbid freezes, added 777 RP's to PG, and removed all those hired prior to CCAA from position group.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sun May 06, 2007 11:23 am

Yes I do. They use to hire direct entry RJ captains. Maybe AC is encouraging people to fill left seat positions as soon as possible and pay the rest peanuts while they wait for an upgrade. I have said before that we might revisit a time when AC hired instructors. They would be the only takers on a deal like this. Pretty sad moneywise. But the longterm is still what I would consider.

Spruce Moose · Post by **Spruce Moose** » Sun May 06, 2007 12:12 pm

When 2009 comes up, is it possible to negotiate away the PG or is it set in stone?

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sun May 06, 2007 1:07 pm

Everything is negotiable. It's up to the negotiators. I wouldn't be optimistic about that one. But hey, let's wait and see.

buss · Post by **buss** » Sun May 06, 2007 4:18 pm

silly Question perhaps.When does salary kick in. DOH?

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Sun May 06, 2007 4:21 pm

Flat pay salary starts on the first day of groundschool.

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Sun May 06, 2007 8:04 pm

approximately how many years would it take to make captain on the 320?

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Sun May 06, 2007 8:38 pm

You can never tell what the future will bring but on the last bid the most junior A320 Captain was hired in Augst of 2000.

popo · Post by **popo** » Mon May 07, 2007 6:27 pm

Lost in Saigon wrote:Tony, you are wrong about PG.

New hires will never make formula pay in any position that is designated PG. (Embraer FO or any RP position)

They will always get paid the blended PG pay. Even after they leave the PG for A320 FO or any higher position. The minute they bid down to RP, they immediately go back to PG pay. YOU ARE BRANDED AS A PG PILOT FOR LIFE!

This is fundamentally wrong and ACPA should be very embarrassed for ever agreeing to such a flawed scheme.

Well said. PG= BS
it should be PG for all or no PG, guys now do the same job, one get 37k a year and the other one 100k + ...call that fair.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Mon May 07, 2007 7:32 pm

Or you could do the Cathay thing and have a "B" scale then "C" scale etc...etc....etc...

PG sucks but when the company was in CCAA, there wasn't much room to negotiate for the present employees let alone ones that hadn't been hired yet. Not defending the idea of PG and I hope we get rid of it, however, it may have been worse.