CMA Really hire pilots?

newalliance123 · Post by **newalliance123** » Mon May 07, 2007 3:56 pm

So do they really take pilots at there 1000 hrs mins?

Sitting just under with tons of multi and thats where I wanna head. Not really up for the ramp tho hehe.

Thanks

Dave T · Post by **Dave T** » Wed May 09, 2007 9:29 am

I am going to start by asking what is peoples problem with working the ramp when asking questions like this? Yea it sucks, and yea it's not the way things should be, but there are MANY pilots on here that are now Captains on large airplanes that started on the ramp. Taking a stab like that while asking about a job is pretty dumb.

To answer your question. 1000 hours is pretty much the BARE min. Currently most being hired are more around the 2000 mark. Even with 2000 hours ALOT of people are knocking on the door and you have to make yourself stand out.

Sorry to rain on your parade.

JohnnyHotRocks · Post by **JohnnyHotRocks** » Wed May 09, 2007 10:46 am

Working ramp sucks...best to avoid it if you can...with the current state of aviation in Canada, you should be able to find a job without working ramp first.

Dave T · Post by **Dave T** » Wed May 09, 2007 10:52 am

I fully agree. Working the ramp is not cool at all and should be avoided if possible. I'm just making a point that when looking for a job with under the min time you shouldn't dump on working the ramp. There are many people on here that had no choice and get irked when someone makes a comment about it.

BigBlindVSSmallBlind · Wed May 09, 2007 4:33 pm

I hate to say it guys but having that attitude isn't going to get you very far. Whether you want to work the ramp most if not all companies hire based on your attitude not how good you can fly an airplane. (Remember they sent a monkey to the moon) Not saying that we are monkeys but showing up with a good attitude on the ramp will show not only management but the guys that your going to be flying with that your a good guy. Right now there's a ton of guys on the ramp with CMA and I'd vouch for any one of them and look forward to flying with them because of their ATTITUDES. They've busted there ass to get on the flight line and have always been a big help going above and beyond. I myself had to work the ramp, instruct and I wouldn't take a day of that back. It has helped me appreciate where I've gotten so far and I think in the long term has widened my scope of vision in any and all operations. Anyway good luck and if you have worked the ramp and are simply just trying to move on then I'll stop rambling. If you do get onto CMA there's good and bad but the great thing is, is that your always working with good guys and that go's along ways.

BigBlindVSSmallBlind · Wed May 09, 2007 4:34 pm

Oh and they really do take pilots

newalliance123 · Post by **newalliance123** » Wed May 09, 2007 6:23 pm

I'd love to work the ramp but not up for leaving my current job to go work the ramp, I fly 100 hrs a month and dont wanna leave that to work the ramp. I spent a lot of time to get current job. Just trying to progess through my career. So I was wondering if they hire just below 1000 hrs as im not there yet but do have a lot of multi. Otherwise I can wait till winter when I have more time...

But ya I agree ramp isnt bad to get in with a good company but not when I allready have a job I love...

Thanks for ur input tho

linebacker35 · Post by **linebacker35** » Wed May 09, 2007 11:20 pm

What kind of time should be expected to get a ramp position? I saw on the website that the mins are like 300 hours or something for a ramp position. Do they hire many low time guys for that? And how long could one expect to work the ramp until they got a pilot spot. I think its a great system they got and would love to one day be able to get a position.

Pilot_adam · Post by **Pilot_adam** » Thu May 10, 2007 12:33 am

newalliance123 wrote: I fly 100 hrs a month and dont wanna leave that to work the ramp.

Over 100hrs a month, multi-time ?!!!

And you wanna move on?!!

What kind of flying do you do, if you don't mind me asking !!

If you do fly a 100hrs a month why don't you wait a couple of months and you would have their mins then,heck wait 6 months ,get your ATPL and apply anywhere you like

JohnnyHotRocks · Post by **JohnnyHotRocks** » Thu May 10, 2007 4:16 am

I hate to say it guys but having that attitude isn't going to get you very far.

What's wrong with the attitude that working the ramp sucks? We are trained professionals...when we get the licences, we shouldn't have to scrub toilets and pump gas to "pay our dues"...we should be able to take those licences that we worked hard for (and paid big bucks for) and apply them as PILOTS, not as rampies...fortunately, in today's hiring situation it is very possible to do so.
As for not making it far with my attitude...I guess you're probably right on that one...I'm sure I'll never get to work at CMA

Nightflight · Post by **Nightflight** » Thu May 10, 2007 5:08 am

What he said.

So let me get this straight. You work you butt off on the ramp only to be rewarded with a flying job that pays SHIT. I'm starting to feel like I'm at the wrong end of this business. Time to find some investors and buy some airplanes. Oh yeah, and I can call the eBay dude and have him work the ramp before moving on to fly. Of course he'll have to pay me to fly my airplane. Looks like I'll be laughing and singing all the way to the bank.
So long! Gotta make some calls!

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Thu May 10, 2007 6:48 am

Stay where you are, build your multi PIC time, then move on. I wouldn't leave until I had the ATP PIC times if I were you, unless of course the job really sucked. I know a few people that got called by CMA who had a little over 1000hrs, so it is possible. Do NOT work the ramp with your qualifications.

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Thu May 10, 2007 9:28 am

You really shouldn't have to work the ramp with ANY qualifications. I've never understood the rational behind the idea of making guys start out this way. If you don't meet the min qualifications on day one, how do you all of the sudden become qualified after 1-2yrs of working like a dog for next to no pay? You're either qualified or your not... period! Its simply a way for employers to get cheap labour that won't leave. You don't see this happening in other professions. Do you see Dr's mopping floors in hospitals for a year before they get to see patients? NO Do you see lawyers cleaning the bathrooms for a year before they start working on cases? Not bloody likely. So why is it that pilots seem to think its ok to have to work the ramp for a year before they get a shot at flying? The industry is booming. Just about everyone is screaming for pilots. There is no reason for ANYONE to have to work the ramp right now.

JohnnyHotRocks · Post by **JohnnyHotRocks** » Thu May 10, 2007 9:42 am

EXACTLY!!

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Thu May 10, 2007 12:09 pm

Everybody read BCflyer's post. Now read it again.

DO NOT WORK THE RAMP UNLESS YOU ARE ACTIVELY GETTING CHECKED OUT.

That means you have an actual timetable - anybody who says you will get checked out in the Fall when things aren't so busy just sold you a bridge. If you don't get laid off you will be starving and need a ramp job.

You are in the process of becoming a trained professional pilot and you are not a ramp rat. There is only about a week of ramp work that is good for your education, the rest is slave labour.

newalliance123 · Post by **newalliance123** » Thu May 10, 2007 4:17 pm

Im a assistant pilot at a busy flight school and I conduct instrument stage checks for our multi ifr course...

Ya well see just was looking to move on in my career. I have all the ATP mins allready. Prolly hold out for my ATP and try somewhere else.

Thanks for the replys guys,

Go Guns · Post by **Go Guns** » Thu May 10, 2007 8:32 pm

If you don't meet the min qualifications on day one, how do you all of the sudden become qualified after 1-2yrs of working like a dog for next to no pay? You're either qualified or your not... period!

Yeah, and with a fresh CPL and 250 hours, there's 7977 people in Canada at least as qualified as you. But thats ok, if you're above working the ramp, that'll make it easier on those who aren't.

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Thu May 10, 2007 9:53 pm

Great attitude.

My question to you is why don't they put you in a plane right away? Apparently your 250 hrs will be fine in a year or two so why isn't it good now? The arguement that they want to see if you work out first is crap. Companies have no problem puttting guys with a bit more time right into an airplane without having to find out if they will "fit in" so what is the difference? Let me tell you. Its a simple and easy way to get cheap labour by dangling the flying carrot. You paid upwards of $40000 to be called a pilot so why are you looking for ramp jobs?? Like I said in my previous post. Doctors don't go looking for janitor jobs after they graduate. You are a pilot, you should be looking for pilot jobs. The sooner guys start figuring that out the better it will be for ALL the lowtimers getting started!!

Nightflight · Post by **Nightflight** » Fri May 11, 2007 1:28 am

bcflyer wrote:You paid upwards of $40000 to be called a pilot so why are you looking for ramp jobs?? Like I said in my previous post. Doctors don't go looking for janitor jobs after they graduate. You are a pilot, you should be looking for pilot jobs. The sooner guys start figuring that out the better it will be for ALL the lowtimers getting started!!

Couldn't agree more.

JohnnyHotRocks · Post by **JohnnyHotRocks** » Fri May 11, 2007 5:30 am

My question to you is why don't they put you in a plane right away? Apparently your 250 hrs will be fine in a year or two so why isn't it good now?

Because the employer needs to see you shovel dogshit, and load cargo, and clean toilets first...that way he can tell that you will be a great pilot...he gets to see your decision making skills..."which pile of dogshit should I bag up first?"

Elessar_44 · Post by **Elessar_44** » Fri May 11, 2007 9:51 am

bcflyer wrote:Great attitude. My question to you is why don't they put you in a plane right away? Apparently your 250 hrs will be fine in a year or two so why isn't it good now? The arguement that they want to see if you work out first is crap. Companies have no problem puttting guys with a bit more time right into an airplane without having to find out if they will "fit in" so what is the difference? Let me tell you. Its a simple and easy way to get cheap labour by dangling the flying carrot. You paid upwards of $40000 to be called a pilot so why are you looking for ramp jobs?? Like I said in my previous post. Doctors don't go looking for janitor jobs after they graduate. You are a pilot, you should be looking for pilot jobs. The sooner guys start figuring that out the better it will be for ALL the lowtimers getting started!!

bcflyer, I agree with your posts in this thread whole-heartedly but as one of the low timers I have to say that it isn't that easy to find a non-ramp job. Every single operator I've talked to has said "whats your time?" "250hrs" "oh we don't hire 250hr guys direct to flight line, let me connect you to the ramp supervisor". Either that or they aren't hiring guys with my time at all.

I've had this conversation with tons of people who ask me how my job search is going and I try to explain to them the crappy situation that is "work the ramp, get hours 12 months down the road". I wish it were different, honestly, but from my seat right now it seems like it is the only way into the MIFR world as a low-timer.

That Infinity job that was posted today was the first job I've seen listed here that specifically lists 250hrs as an acceptable minimum, although you do need your IATRA.

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Fri May 11, 2007 11:01 am

Elessar_44 wrote: Every single operator I've talked to has said "whats your time?" "250hrs" "oh we don't hire 250hr guys direct to flight line, let me connect you to the ramp supervisor". Either that or they aren't hiring guys with my time at all.

I realize that it's a very difficult thing to do but has anyone actually asked a company why they don't hire direct to the flight line? If you don't meet the quailfications thats one thing. If you do but they want you to do slave labour for a year to "earn" your spot thats crap no matter how you look at it. The point I'm trying to impress on the lowtimers here is that you need to stop selling yourself short. You are a pilot, you fly planes not work the ramp. (Please note that I am NOT saying that you won't have to load, unload your plane, put on wing and engine tents, plug in heaters etc. Those are all part and parcel of your first few FLYING jobs.)

I wish it were different, honestly, but from my seat right now it seems like it is the only way into the MIFR world as a low-timer.

Maybe you shouldn't be looking to get into the MIFR world as a lowtimer. There are several other options that will actually get you into a flying position. For the money it cost to get your MIFR you could have gotten an instructors rating or a float rating. There is a demand for pilots right now and as the more experienced guys get sucked up to the next level, companies have to drop their requirements or risk parking airplanes. Your first job is all about attitude. There are outfits out there that are willing to put low timers in their planes. You just have to hunt them out.

That Infinity job that was posted today was the first job I've seen listed here that specifically lists 250hrs as an acceptable minimum, although you do need your IATRA.

Not everyone posts their jobs on this site. As companies get desperate for pilots, the ACTUAL mins will come down. (their job listing may still say 1000hrs but they will hire with far less)
I realize how hard it is to get that first job and I don't pretend to have all the answers but it sickens me to think of guys getting taken advantage of because of their love for aviation.

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Fri May 11, 2007 3:06 pm

BCFlyer,

I couldn't agree with your principals more if I tried, and I too find it hard to believe that most young pilots think the MIFR right seat meat is the way to go. I can't believe how many times I hear people talking about working for little to nothing, doing all types on non-aviation related tasks(mowing the Boss's lawn...etc), and willing to spend the afore mentioned $40-60K to get a seasonal $12/hr job.

However, there are so many fresh CPL's coming out of school these days, that the employers have their choice of folks that will accept unacceptable jobs - they justify it by saying they are looking for the right "attitude," whatever that means. The other point worth mentioning here is the tradition of working the "dock"/"ramp," and how it's been very much distorted over time.

In old days - long before my time may I add - the majority of flying jobs required a certain amount of 'know how' and common sense. Pilots would be brought along on said dock, were shown by the more experienced pilots the do's and don'ts of the specific job in question, and moved into the LEFT seat when the time came. With a few notable exceptions, that is no longer the case.

Sitting right seat in what are really single pilot machines(King Airs, Navajo's, Caravans, 1900's etc) takes little to no skill, or know how, so the value of working a dock or ramp is greatly diminished. I guess what I'm saying is, there are no reason's I've heard lately as to why a ticketed Commercial Pilot should be swinging bags on a ramp for a 704/705 operator. If you want to be a float pilot, great go get a dock job, learn about the world into which you are about to go, and have fun. Driving the tug and tossing bags aren't helping you learn to give a Pax briefing and close the door....

It's unfortunate that the gross oversupply of pilots has lead to the current situation, because I'm sure many fine potential pilots never get a crack at a job.

stl

HighBypass · Post by **HighBypass** » Fri May 11, 2007 11:37 pm

Obviously some of your guys are forgetting whey companies hire rampies with CPL licences.. and since i was one a year ago ill refresh your memories.

Companies these days always need ramp workers. The rampie plays a key role in making sure the flights leave on time and that turn around times are minimal. (especially where theres a lot of setting-up and leg work to do to organize the load.) The reason why most of the rampies happen to have CPL's is because when a 250hr wonder wanlks in to talk to the CP, chances are the CP doesn't need an FO THAT DAY. However, he could use a rampie (at very little cost to him.) So, when the day comes when he needs an FO, he has one that he can upgrade immediately without having to wait for a 250hr wonder to walk in the door. The rampie can even have the GS done while hes still on the ramp, so when the day comes for the check out, it can be done in 2 days.

And by the way, whats starting FO wage on a 1900 at CMA?? about $24000? Well thats what most rampies are making up in YZF; its not great, but its better then what instructors make. And remember that Instructors have to shell out $7K for a rating, whereas a rampie will not pay a dime.. just his time on the ramp.

So you all say that nobody should work the ramp? they should jsut walk in and demand a right seat spot on a twin turbo prop......haha good luck. most 250hr wonders from down south dont even know what the "smart end of a herc strp" is... ( i dont think i did) so basically they have no idea even where to start when its time to load 6pax, a drill bit, some ply-wood and some groceries. At least on the ramp they can learn how to do this so when they have a fresh ppc, they will be useful and not stand around waiting for the captain to make all the decisions that make a day go smoothly. Of course once the airplane is laoded and taxiing out, most of the decisions are made by the captain anyways so it really gets very easy for the copilot.

It would be great if everyone could start out as flaot pilots and get the best experience, but there just isn't enough flaot jobs out there. And when I was looking for my first job, you needed 500hrs on floats, no exceptions... how do you get that? especially when its seasonal work?

Roger Perdactor.

newalliance123 · Post by **newalliance123** » Sat May 12, 2007 6:29 am

Yes, all good points, but I make 40K instructing and it'll be a big pay cut to leave to pursuit my dream. So I rather not take a pay cut and on top of that not get to fly. So I guess I'll need some luck to get an F/O job I guess if there just going to hire off the ramp only. I don't think most companies take that many ppl off the ramp. I could be wrong.

As far as a first job, That's a way to get into it by working the ramp.

CMA Really hire pilots?

CMA Really hire pilots?

C'mon now

The Ramp