Air Canada salary question

[Dockjock]

Notwithstanding the other flaws of pay group, I find it a little ridiculous that any RP gets paid anywhere near or even over $100K. 777RP at $120K!? To sit in J, watch movies and sleep? That job is worth $80K max max max and whoever is doing that job for that money is effectively stealing from others in positions with more responsibility.

[tonysoprano]

To put things in perspective, if we expect the other groups to trim salaries in order to put AC back on track, the pilot group should be willing to do the same. The RP salaries were (are) somewhat inflated and the company along with ACPA had to do something during CCAA. The flip side of that argument is the fact that some high ranking (and some not so high) officials of the company are now millionaires post CCAA with their bonuses. I'm all for trimming to help as long as it applies to everyone.

[Rockie]

Notwithstanding the other flaws of pay group, I find it a little ridiculous that any RP gets paid anywhere near or even over $100K. 777RP at $120K!? To sit in J, watch movies and sleep? That job is worth $80K max max max and whoever is doing that job for that money is effectively stealing from others in positions with more responsibility.

RP's are not paid to sit in J and watch movies any more than the Captain is. They are paid to perform the duties they were trained to do while sitting in the front seat. The bread and butter of which is correctly performing (as pilot flying) the emergency descent for depressurization or driftdown in the event of an engine failure. What doesn't get the deserved attention, even from the RP's, is their role as backstop for the Captain and FO when they are in the seats. Many mistakes have been prevented by an alert RP who is able to see things from a kind of "sim instructors" perspective.

This kind of attitude is exactly the divide and conquer stuff that managements love to hear. "Stealing" from others? If you are a pilot I hope you think a little more about this issue.

[Dockjock]

I am a pilot, and while my characterization of relief pilots is somewhat exaggerated, the reality is it is basically true. I do not think a frank discussion of the relative merits of different levels of responsibility and the rates of pay associated should be immediately categorized as counter productive.
I fully support the notion that long haul flying requires augmentation by a 3rd crewmember. The third set of eyes and ears would be welcomed back in all cockpits in all phases of flight if it were economically feasable.
However, reality being as it is I feel that no matter how you slice it, the RP has less responsibility than any other pilot (CA, FO) in the fleet and Air Canada's current pay scale does a disservice to EMJ, 320, and (evidently if that $120K figure is correct) even some 767 FO's by paying quite so handsomely.

[Rockie]

I don't disagree with you at all about the levels of responsibility between Capt's, FO's and RP's. It is a discussion that need not occur because it is obvious. What is counter-productive is a pilot saying RP's are paid to sit in J and watch movies when you should know better. What is counter-productive is a pilot claiming one group is overpaid and is "stealing" from the other groups.

We are all underpaid. Start from there.

[2low]

RP's aren't pilots. Period!

[abc xyz]

Dockjock for somebody who is still likely on probation I shake my head. You knew the terms and conditions when you signed on. I bet when your day comes to hold a cruiser job making 120 K you wont be bitchin. There are a lot of senior guys who dont mind cruisin - just imagine you get your wish and they all come back to the emb or 320 as FO's and you get forced to the Cruise job makin shit. Its all relative. Bid the job you want - its all about seniority.

[disco]

2Low...

You're comments are based on what? An RP completes an entire initial FO course and FO check ride and then conducts his duties for many hours in both the FO and Capt seat. Should I also mention that many of these RPs you refer to were 767 Captains, 767 FOs or very experienced military pilots prior to taking the RP position?

I assume you are simply attempting to stir the pot. You can't be that thick.

[Lost in Saigon]

Also consider that many airlines do not even employ "Cruise" pilots.

They use full paid Captains and First officers as "Augment" or "Cruise Relief" pilots.

The Maldives considers anything less than a fully qualified pilot at the controls unsafe and will not allow operators with "Cruise Only Relief" pilots into their airspace.

http://www.icao.int/ICDB/HTML/English/R ... PPB.EN.HTM

Maldives

The Civil Aviation Department of Maldives feels very firmly that:-

- The concept and practice of restricted type ratings compromises flight safety.

- The practice of using holders of restricted type ratings as so-called “cruise” pilots is both unsatisfactory and potential threat to flight Safety.


All International operators into Maldivian airspace will be required on those flights where a supplementary crew member is fully type rated and qualified to act as pilot-in-command.

Air Canada is really getting a bargain because many of their RP's are being paid flat salary or Position Group Pay.

On the B777 the max formula pay is as follows:

The RP make about 120K
The FO makes about 160K
The Captain makes 240K.

Each one of them is worth every cent.

To say otherwise is a slap in the face for our entire pilot community.

[Dockjock]

Unions are in the business of protecting the status quo, for the most part to the greater benefit of their members- that is not in dispute.
But my feeling is the given the fact that there is $x-million dollars available for pilot compensation in the any airline's annual budget, a union negotiating to allot it in such a manner is neither equitable or in the best interest of all members as it bears little relation to the old "more responsibility = more pay" argument. It protects the status quo and nothing more. It's a gravy job, talk to any RP and they'll tell you its the easiest money they've ever made.

ps. abc, I didn't form my opinion when I started at Air Canada, and as far as I know everyone has equal say regardless of one's position on the seniority list.

[abc xyz]

abc, I didn't form my opinion when I started at Air Canada, and as far as I know everyone has equal say regardless of one's position on the seniority list.

Everyone definately has a right to an opinion but I kinda think your arguement is skewed by your position on the seniority list. As I said once you can hold those jobs I bet you wont care one way or another what a cruiser is paid. I know guys who were S/O for over a decade in the 80s waiting their turn for a right seat. In the mid 90's you had 320 Capt who were like 3 yrs in. Sure there was some envious people but they all played the seniority game and bided their time. By commenting that any pilot is overpaid simply plays into the ongoing stereotype. You get what you negotiate and if some positions get some extra perks why of all people would you care as an AC pilot.

[zforzulu]

Hey Dockjock,

Just to make you feel worse, RP's for a certain Asian carrier make the equivalent of CAD$200,000 Gross pay (ie. compensating for the higher income taxes in Canada)!!

I agree with what Rockie and Lost in Saigon posted. We're all underpaid in Canada.

z.

[Goose757]

YOU ARE BRANDED AS A PG PILOT FOR LIFE!

So, let me get this straight. You have been with the company more than five years, on a 320 f/o and you decide to do overseas flying but can't hold an f/o on 67 so you bid rp 67. You're telling me you go back in the pay group? I actually know guys who did this same move and are not in the PG but are getting the formula pay for the RP 67 (90k yr.). Maybe it's because they are not newhires. What is the cutoff date? I can see what AC is doing, they are making certain positions entry level and paying them peanuts forever to encourage them to choose positions outside the PG. I would imagine this would take place in any case. I see this as a way of filling the seats that are hard to fill- left seat Emb and right seat 320. Something else to consider. ACPA held a vote on this. WE as a group are responsible for this.

Curious. How come left seat on the Emb is hard to fill?

[tonysoprano]

Curious. How come left seat on the Emb is hard to fill?

The Emb left seat pays the same if not less than the right seat 767. The lifestyle on the Emb is go, go, go. Some like that, most don't. The lifestyle on the widebody if very different. What's great about this job is you have choices. What's bad about this job is you have choices. The Emb has been likened to the DC9 but pays no where near that nor has the lifestyle that the 9 offered. But then again the days of the 9 were much better in our industry and those days are gone.The Emb operation will succeed but many don't speak highly of it. Not when there's a choice.

[Goose757]

Curious. How come left seat on the Emb is hard to fill?

The Emb left seat pays the same if not less than the right seat 767. The lifestyle on the Emb is go, go, go. Some like that, most don't. The lifestyle on the widebody if very different. What's great about this job is you have choices. What's bad about this job is you have choices. The Emb has been likened to the DC9 but pays no where near that nor has the lifestyle that the 9 offered. But then again the days of the 9 were much better in our industry and those days are gone.The Emb operation will succeed but many don't speak highly of it. Not when there's a choice.

Hmm. What is the lifestyle like on the Emb? What kind of schedule do they work? What is the pay for first year left seat?

For me its all about lifestyle and not so much about money, so I'm trying to find a job where I'm home almost every night. I know that seems like a lot to ask, and I realize that its probably not a reality in this industry, but I've heard that skyservice is like that, (on the 320's). I would like to work for AC for all the perks plus the option of flying lots of equipment, but, again, its all about lifestyle for me.

[Lost in Saigon]

You can be home every night at Air Canada. But you will need to be senior on your aircraft.

There are some flights that depart and then turn around back home. If you are senior, you can bid to fly only "turns".

Here is an actual example of a senior (7 years) EMB FO's flying for the entire block month of May. Only 11 days work and home every night.
(on the 767 you can do 8 YYZ-YVR turns at 9:27 per day)


T 3 1041-1042 6:34
F 4 1041-1042 6:34
S 5
S 6
M 7
T 8
W 9 1039-1040 6:34
T 10 1043-1038 6:34
F 11 1043-1038 6:34
S 12
S 13
M 14 1039-1040 6:34
T 15
W 16 1043-1038 6:34
T 17 1043-1038 6:34
F 18 1043-1038 6:34
S 19
S 20
M 21
T 22 1043-1038 6:34
W 23 1043-1038 6:34
T 24
F 25
S 26
S 27
M 28
T 29
W 30
T 31
F 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total 77:14

[Goose757]

Jeez, whoever that FO is, they got a sweet gig this month. Only 11 days?!!?! Thats awesome. Don't know if I'd want to slug it out for 7 years just to get a schedule like that. Worst part is, then you go left seat and start all over again. Maybe I'll just keep my eyes set on 5G.

Thanks for the info Saigon.

[SQ]

T 3 1041-1042 6:34
F 4 1041-1042 6:34
S 5
S 6
M 7
T 8
W 9 1039-1040 6:34
T 10 1043-1038 6:34
F 11 1043-1038 6:34
S 12
S 13
M 14 1039-1040 6:34
T 15
W 16 1043-1038 6:34
T 17 1043-1038 6:34
F 18 1043-1038 6:34
S 19
S 20
M 21
T 22 1043-1038 6:34
W 23 1043-1038 6:34
T 24
F 25
S 26
S 27
M 28
T 29
W 30
T 31
F 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total 77:14

does somebody have a 777 Cpt sched, it could be interesting to compare

[Lost in Saigon]

There are no schedules for 777 pilots yet. They are still doing line training and there is only 2 airplanes to fly at this point.

There is nothing magical about 777. The junior pilots will have bad schedules and the senior pilots will have nice schedules. Just like any other aircraft in the fleet. But until they have more destinations to choose from, I expect that everyone's schedules will look very much the same.

It's all subjective anyway. Do you like long layovers? Short layovers? High credit flying? Home everynight?

[yycflyguy]

You don't need 7 years service to get a sked like that. I have less than 2 years in and have basically the same sked. 13 days at work including 1 overnight. The rest are all high credit turns. I needed to be home to paint my condo and it gave me the opportunity.

[Goose757]

You don't need 7 years service to get a sked like that. I have less than 2 years in and have basically the same sked. 13 days at work including 1 overnight. The rest are all high credit turns. I needed to be home to paint my condo and it gave me the opportunity.

Nice! What aircraft are you on? The Emb?

[yycflyguy]

You don't need 7 years service to get a sked like that. I have less than 2 years in and have basically the same sked. 13 days at work including 1 overnight. The rest are all high credit turns. I needed to be home to paint my condo and it gave me the opportunity.

Nice! What aircraft are you on? The Emb?

Yup.

[DeltaHotel]

This thread is pretty old.

Any changes to the relief pilot's pay scales at AC ?

What take home can one expect if RP on the 777 nowadays ?

[c170b53]

And the guys that make it all possible and safe, 70-80K a year. Wouldn't feel as bad if I didn't have to demonstrate how to get to the second status page on the 777 last week. Yeah it was one of those nights but I did enjoy telling the C after he declared that he was going flying that he was going nowhere. Oblivious, good thing the airplane knew where it was going.
Then again in the outside world, 240K seems reasonable when the guys going around the diamond start at several mill a year.

[c170b53]

The guys dong the real flying are getting the least pay so that explains the rest of the misnomers in this segment of aviation. STOC the guys that know the least directing those that know something. For the definition of MOC see STOC.