M1 or M2?????
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HercRigger
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- Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:03 am
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M1 or M2?????
Got a quick question for the great minds here. I'm currently working towards my M license and will be using my military experience towards it. The experience I have is only on the Herc (L382) so I'm assuming it falls under the M2 category. When I go and get the 6 months civvie experience req'd by TC, it'll most likely be on 150's, 172's etc which I'll assume falls under M1. Transport hasn't answered any of my questions regarding this so which license would I be able to get? If I get my M1, how hard is it to upgrade to an M2 and vice versa?
M2 by itself is useless without an endorsement course for the A/C type as you cannot 'sign out' the A/C without being endorsed.
Endorsement courses can be pretty expensive. They are usually paid for by the employer with the employee agreeing to a training bond of some kind.
As M2 aircraft tend to be owned by the larger more established companies it can be a long grind as an apprentice doing repetitive menial tasks.
That being said these companies; pay better, have a seniority system/pay scale of some sort in place, solid support equipment and stores support.
M1 however is a whole different animal. One may 'sign out' all fixed wing non-jet A/C under 12500 mtow and piston powered helicopters. In fact it is possible to certify even larger A/C over 12500 with less than 20 passengers (Cars 705 air taxi category.)
Great power like that comes with great responsibility. Keep in mind that your employer must grant you ACA(signing authority) before you can certify their A/C.
The ability to certify the entire A/C is the priveledge of the AME and thats where the money is. As an AME this is what your employer is going to want, and pay for. Apprentices do ok, Engineers do really ok paywise.
As an M1 engineer is usually a supervisor (crew chief) with a crew of apprentices (or not) depending on where you work, the level of responsibility is high. Where you end up working could be waaay out in the styx with anything from a 1 A/C mom & pop run fishing lodge to a commuter class airline.
I recommend you go for the M1 first depending on your situation. Thats because its easier to get the M2 after since your more 'hireable' with the M1 under your belt already. All it requires is 6 months on type experience with 70 percent of your logbook tasks signed by endorsed engineers. Submit the upgrade form with your logbook and bingo.
To get an M1 out of your M2 you need 6 months on type experience and your 70percent of the logbook ATA tasks for M1 cat A/C signed out by an M1 engineer. (as far as I know now,please feel free to chime in if I'm wrong.)
Sorry for the long post, hope that helps tho.
Endorsement courses can be pretty expensive. They are usually paid for by the employer with the employee agreeing to a training bond of some kind.
As M2 aircraft tend to be owned by the larger more established companies it can be a long grind as an apprentice doing repetitive menial tasks.
That being said these companies; pay better, have a seniority system/pay scale of some sort in place, solid support equipment and stores support.
M1 however is a whole different animal. One may 'sign out' all fixed wing non-jet A/C under 12500 mtow and piston powered helicopters. In fact it is possible to certify even larger A/C over 12500 with less than 20 passengers (Cars 705 air taxi category.)
Great power like that comes with great responsibility. Keep in mind that your employer must grant you ACA(signing authority) before you can certify their A/C.
The ability to certify the entire A/C is the priveledge of the AME and thats where the money is. As an AME this is what your employer is going to want, and pay for. Apprentices do ok, Engineers do really ok paywise.
As an M1 engineer is usually a supervisor (crew chief) with a crew of apprentices (or not) depending on where you work, the level of responsibility is high. Where you end up working could be waaay out in the styx with anything from a 1 A/C mom & pop run fishing lodge to a commuter class airline.
I recommend you go for the M1 first depending on your situation. Thats because its easier to get the M2 after since your more 'hireable' with the M1 under your belt already. All it requires is 6 months on type experience with 70 percent of your logbook tasks signed by endorsed engineers. Submit the upgrade form with your logbook and bingo.
To get an M1 out of your M2 you need 6 months on type experience and your 70percent of the logbook ATA tasks for M1 cat A/C signed out by an M1 engineer. (as far as I know now,please feel free to chime in if I'm wrong.)
Sorry for the long post, hope that helps tho.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man how to fish and he will sit in a boat and drink all day.
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Human Factor
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- Location: Between a dock and a hard place.
From CARS:
(8 ) Ratings.
(a) The scope of maintenance release privileges will be indicated by rating designators entered on the licence, as follows:
(i) M1: Non-turbojet aircraft built to CAR 522, 523, 523-VLA, 527, 549 and equivalent standards (includes all airframe, engines, propellers, components, structures, and systems of those aircraft), and the aircraft listed in paragraph 566.03(8 )(b).
(amended 2003/09/01; previous version)
(ii) M2: All aircraft not included in M1 (excluding balloons) (includes all airframes, engines, propellers, components, structures, and systems of those aircraft), and the aircraft listed in paragraph 566.03(8 )(b).
(amended 2003/09/01; previous version).
(iii) E: Aircraft electronic systems. (includes communication, pulse, navigation, auto flight, flight path computation, instruments and the electrical elements of other aircraft systems, and any structural work directly associated with the maintenance of those systems);
(iv) S: Aircraft structures. (includes all airframe structures);
(v) Balloons.
(b) Holders of either an M1 or M2 rated AME licence also have maintenance release privileges for all:
(amended 2003/09/01; no previous version)
(i) turbine powered helicopters; and
(ii) SFAR 41C aeroplanes, including their associated variants and derivatives.
(8 ) Ratings.
(a) The scope of maintenance release privileges will be indicated by rating designators entered on the licence, as follows:
(i) M1: Non-turbojet aircraft built to CAR 522, 523, 523-VLA, 527, 549 and equivalent standards (includes all airframe, engines, propellers, components, structures, and systems of those aircraft), and the aircraft listed in paragraph 566.03(8 )(b).
(amended 2003/09/01; previous version)
(ii) M2: All aircraft not included in M1 (excluding balloons) (includes all airframes, engines, propellers, components, structures, and systems of those aircraft), and the aircraft listed in paragraph 566.03(8 )(b).
(amended 2003/09/01; previous version).
(iii) E: Aircraft electronic systems. (includes communication, pulse, navigation, auto flight, flight path computation, instruments and the electrical elements of other aircraft systems, and any structural work directly associated with the maintenance of those systems);
(iv) S: Aircraft structures. (includes all airframe structures);
(v) Balloons.
(b) Holders of either an M1 or M2 rated AME licence also have maintenance release privileges for all:
(amended 2003/09/01; no previous version)
(i) turbine powered helicopters; and
(ii) SFAR 41C aeroplanes, including their associated variants and derivatives.
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tellyourkidstogetarealjob
- Rank 5
- Posts: 390
- Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:11 am
- Location: Cascadia
TC will not give you a straight positive answer. Only a straight negative one. They'll give you double talk and blame you if you don't understand it.
I don't have experience with military to civil conversions but basically any logbook entry you get working on 150's etc will not count at all toward an M2 license. The time spent working on M1 aircraft can be used but not the tasks.
Even though TC doesn't make it clear M1 and M2 tasks have to be signed separately. Literally, this means changing a taxi light bulb on an M1 aircraft has to be signed in addition to changing a taxi light bulb on an M2 aircraft if you're going for both ratings.
To get M2 after M1 it would take at least a year. Why? Because, as TC hasn't explained to you, once you get your M1 the slate is effectively 'wiped clean'.
The six months on type is difficult to understand without a history lesson. There were, once upon a time, many different 'ratings'. A person could have four years experience but only on few months on several different ratings. So CARs established six months as the minimum to get a rating.
TC, however, doesn't really live by CARs. They have decided 12 months is the minimum after a license is granted. The blatantly contradicts CARs but that's what TC demands. Welcome to civilian aviation.
If you want M2, go to an M2 environment. Even if it's some less than desirable heavy maintenance place. It'll be quicker in the long run.
This, of course, is provided your military experience doesn't provide you with all the tasks required to get your license and for that you need to get input from ex-military types.
I don't have experience with military to civil conversions but basically any logbook entry you get working on 150's etc will not count at all toward an M2 license. The time spent working on M1 aircraft can be used but not the tasks.
Even though TC doesn't make it clear M1 and M2 tasks have to be signed separately. Literally, this means changing a taxi light bulb on an M1 aircraft has to be signed in addition to changing a taxi light bulb on an M2 aircraft if you're going for both ratings.
To get M2 after M1 it would take at least a year. Why? Because, as TC hasn't explained to you, once you get your M1 the slate is effectively 'wiped clean'.
The six months on type is difficult to understand without a history lesson. There were, once upon a time, many different 'ratings'. A person could have four years experience but only on few months on several different ratings. So CARs established six months as the minimum to get a rating.
TC, however, doesn't really live by CARs. They have decided 12 months is the minimum after a license is granted. The blatantly contradicts CARs but that's what TC demands. Welcome to civilian aviation.
If you want M2, go to an M2 environment. Even if it's some less than desirable heavy maintenance place. It'll be quicker in the long run.
This, of course, is provided your military experience doesn't provide you with all the tasks required to get your license and for that you need to get input from ex-military types.
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HercRigger
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- Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:03 am
- Location: CFB Trenton
