Widow writes another letter

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Post by Cat Driver »

I've landed countless times with a simulated engine failure and never dumped. On the other hand, I've been surprised with a few glassy landings that were pretty ugly.
For someone putting forth opinions about landing on glassy water this statement gives me reason to wonder how any properly trained sea plane pilot can get surprised by glassy water landings which result in them being " pretty ugly "

Care to expand on why these events caught you by surprise and then convince me that you could safely land on glassy water after an engine failure having stated you make ugly glassy water landings with the aid of a running engine?
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Post by Widow »

The company went out of business about 18 months after the crash. They were only a two-plane operation to begin with. Money issues.

This is also from the above TCCA report:
It was stated that airworthiness directives usually are not done and probably were not done in this case. Review of the technical records showed that airworthiness directive were complied with.

Unless it can be shown that the engine failed in a new way, the failure modes of this engine have already been addressed with airworthiness directives.

It was stated that bogus engine studs were being used in many cases. If that can be shown in this case, the FAA who are responsible for the engine overhaul agency will be notified.
And this in an email from the Regional Manager M& M ...
You have requested that my office conduct a closer investigation of the aircraft technical records. Without any further evidence of wrongdoing I am reluctant to embark on further investigations for alleged violations of the regulations. If any firm evidence comes to light that the regulations have been breached, I would certainly consider proceeding with further investigation.
To us, the fact that there were problems with the logs for the floats & firewall repairs, should be enough of an indicator that the engine logs need also be examined more closely.
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Post by justplanecrazy »

Cat Driver wrote:
I've landed countless times with a simulated engine failure and never dumped. On the other hand, I've been surprised with a few glassy landings that were pretty ugly.
For someone putting forth opinions about landing on glassy water this statement gives me reason to wonder how any properly trained sea plane pilot can get surprised by glassy water landings which result in them being " pretty ugly "

Care to expand on why these events caught you by surprise and then convince me that you could safely land on glassy water after an engine failure having stated you make ugly glassy water landings with the aid of a running engine?
Sure... short field glassy water landings where you have a very little window where you can use that power.

Like I said, the combination of no engine and glassy water definitely increases the skill required to walk away from it but it doesn't mean there should be an accident. Considering that there was marginal weather as well, he probably never had the opportunity to trade altitude for speed or to get close to the shoreline either, also adding to the difficulty. Why then wouldn't a precautionary be done before losing complete power?

Again, I'm not trying to pin the accident on the pilot or say that he did anything wrong, I'm just trying to show how discovering that the engine had failed, will not completely absolve the pilot of all blame, nor will it likely prove that the company's maintenance program is faulty. Following up on something like an illegally altered float, and maintenance records definitely will. Fortunately with the company already out of business, there is no issue with their faulty maintenance causing more deaths but you could question TC as to what safeguards they have in place for other companies not following maintenance protocols.
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Post by Widow »

He was in the air for about six minutes. The company logs say they took off at 10:10. The plane's clock, (and my husbands watch) were both stopped at 10:16. How much time do you think he had for a precautionary? The plane starts coughing and sputtering, he turns to face the water instead of a cliff ...
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Post by justplanecrazy »

Well the more evidence I hear, it clearly sounds like the pilot did all he could do. The point I'm trying to make, is you have to keep your emotions out of this and focus on what you want to accomplish.

If you want to stop another accident, then focus on why the obvious maintenance issues were not dealt with by TC prior to the accident. Pulling up the engine may help show that there was an engine failure and that the pilot did all he could and was an amazing pilot to put it on the water safely enough to be able to extradite before sinking but what does that do? Will that help prevent another accident or will it simply clear up the suggestiong that the pilot had a share of blame in this accident? I'm not saying that isn't important to you, I know it would be to me, but is that worth spending thousands of dollars on, rather than using that money to investigate accidents that can be prevented in the future?

The company is out of business, it no longer matters what their maintenance program is as it won't harm anyone else. The engine is a time tested and reliable engine, with no consistent failure problems. So how then will recovering the engine save lives?
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Post by Cat Driver »

Care to expand on why these events caught you by surprise and then convince me that you could safely land on glassy water after an engine failure having stated you make ugly glassy water landings with the aid of a running engine?
Sure... short field glassy water landings where you have a very little window where you can use that power.
Fair enough, I can see that happening even though I personally don't recall ever experienced having done that. I won't attempt a glassy water landing if the landing area is to short to set up a safe glassy water approach and attitude for the landing.

But that is just me and my way of doing glassy water landings.
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Post by blachang »

Why don't they put SIGMETS or AIRMETs out for areas where glassy water is anticipated?
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Post by lilfssister »

blachang wrote:Why don't they put SIGMETS or AIRMETs out for areas where glassy water is anticipated?
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

SIGMET, or Significant Meteorological Information, is a weather advisory that contains meteorological information concerning the safety of all aircraft. There are two types of SIGMETs, convective and non-convective. The criteria for a non-convective SIGMET to be issued are severe or greater turbulence over a 3000 square mile area, or severe or greater icing over a 3000 sq mile area or IMC conditions over a 3000 sq mile area due to dust, sand, or volcanic ash [1].


An AIRMET, or Airmen's Meteorological Information, is a weather advisory for aircraft that is potentially hazardous to aircraft with limited capability. [1] Compared to SIGMETs, AIRMETs cover less severe weather: moderate turbulence and icing, surface winds of 30 knots, or widespread restricted visibility.
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Post by Cat Driver »

Why don't they put SIGMETS or AIRMETs out for areas where glassy water is anticipated?
There is no need to put out an advisory on something as common as glassy water.

If a pilot is not aware of the possibility of glassy water they should not be flying float planes.

Glassy water presents no signifigant risk during normal take off and landing operations as long as the pilot has been trained for the proceedures to safely operate on and off glassy water.

However in the rare case where a pilot has an engine failure over glassy water especially with a poor or no visiable horizon the chances of making a safe landing are more good luck than skill because it is impossible to judge height on glassy water to flare for a landing.

Glassy water and poor visibility can happen so fast on the west coast that regardless of how careful you are you can get caught in a difficult situation with very few ways out of it.

The most serious situation I ever flew into that involved glassy water was flying into a logging camp at the far end of Narrows inlet with a full load of passengers in a Twin Otter one morning.

There was no real indication of loss of safe visibility as we turned into Narrows inlet until we passed the real narrow part of the inlet and all of a sudden the water went glassy and the vis went quickly to nothing in light drizzle. We were committed to flying straight ahead as the inlet was to narrow to turn around in so the only safe thing to do was land straight ahead on instruments....luckly we were flying close to the water and it did not take long to make contact with the water and stop the fu.ker. We taxied slowly ahead until the vis picked up and we could see the camp at the end of the inlet.

But for a few moments I was concetrating real close on setting up a glassy water landing with only the instruments to complete the landing.

Any of the Twin Otter guys will understand the problem I faced with no real warning, and the importance of setting up the correct attitude flap setting and sink rate.

So basiclly when flying in that environment there are no guarantees that some day your luck will not run out due to an engine failure, had that been a Beaver and the engine had failed that day it just may have been the straw that broke the camels back.
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Post by Mitch Cronin »

justplanecrazy wrote:Pulling up the engine may help show that there was an engine failure and that the pilot did all he could and was an amazing pilot to put it on the water safely enough to be able to extradite before sinking but what does that do? Will that help prevent another accident or will it simply clear up the suggestiong that the pilot had a share of blame in this accident? I'm not saying that isn't important to you, I know it would be to me, but is that worth spending thousands of dollars on
[empahasis added]

Ya, it is. When you look at the myriad of methods for wasting taxpayer money that our governments employ... yessir, it's worth it.

Will it help prevent another? No way to know that until it's done. Maybe, but not likely. The best reason I see to do it would be for the surviving spouses and loved ones... to them, that much is owed -as full and complete an explanation as can be given.
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Condolences

Post by GilletteNorth »

Widow, I'd like to express my condolences on your loss. I can only imagine the huge impact this has been on your life and what you have felt since your husband died.

I only hope that any questions you still have concerning the events surrounding the death of your husband are answered to your satisfaction so that your mind can feel at ease.
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Having a standard that pilots lose their licence after making a mistake despite doing no harm to aircraft or passengers means soon you needn't worry about a pilot surplus or pilots offering to fly for free. Where do you get your experience from?
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Post by justplanecrazy »

Mitch Cronin wrote:
justplanecrazy wrote:Pulling up the engine may help show that there was an engine failure and that the pilot did all he could and was an amazing pilot to put it on the water safely enough to be able to extradite before sinking but what does that do? Will that help prevent another accident or will it simply clear up the suggestiong that the pilot had a share of blame in this accident? I'm not saying that isn't important to you, I know it would be to me, but is that worth spending thousands of dollars on
[empahasis added]

Ya, it is. When you look at the myriad of methods for wasting taxpayer money that our governments employ... yessir, it's worth it.

Will it help prevent another? No way to know that until it's done. Maybe, but not likely. The best reason I see to do it would be for the surviving spouses and loved ones... to them, that much is owed -as full and complete an explanation as can be given.
fair enough, but then what do you tell the spouse of the person that is killed in an experimental aircraft that won't be investigated period.

As much as it sucks to have questions left in a very unfortunate incident such as this, you have to realize that the purpose of accident investigations is solely to prevent another accident from taking place. As much as I'd like to say the spouses and loved ones deserve as complete an explanation as possible for any accident, there is obviously a limited budget with which TC can work with. If it is extremely unlikely that anything more can be discovered to prevent future accidents, then I can't fault them for ending the investigation. I used to work SAR and the hardest thing was pulling out from a search when it had been determined that it was now a body recovery not a rescue. It was unfortunate and we always wanted to provide the loved ones with answers and a body but unfortunately that was not the purpose of our organization

Widow, thanks for your professional replies, I know your emotions must run high whenever someone questions your fight. My sympathy is with you and I'm amazed at the strength you are displaying. I do sincerely wish that you may someday discover what exactly took place that day and am extremely grateful for any future accidents that your quest may prevent.
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Post by Widow »

justplanecrazy wrote:Well the more evidence I hear, it clearly sounds like the pilot did all he could do. The point I'm trying to make, is you have to keep your emotions out of this and focus on what you want to accomplish.

If you want to stop another accident, then focus on why the obvious maintenance issues were not dealt with by TC prior to the accident. Pulling up the engine may help show that there was an engine failure and that the pilot did all he could and was an amazing pilot to put it on the water safely enough to be able to extradite before sinking but what does that do? Will that help prevent another accident or will it simply clear up the suggestiong that the pilot had a share of blame in this accident? I'm not saying that isn't important to you, I know it would be to me, but is that worth spending thousands of dollars on, rather than using that money to investigate accidents that can be prevented in the future?

The company is out of business, it no longer matters what their maintenance program is as it won't harm anyone else. The engine is a time tested and reliable engine, with no consistent failure problems. So how then will recovering the engine save lives?
There must be in the neighbourhood of 400 R985's operating commercially in Canada, to say nothing of the hundreds of others operating privately (and possibly carrying employees legally). The SDR's show an increasing number of cylinder failures, which could indicate a problem more than a failure to maintain to the ADs. If pulling up the engine shows that faulty parts contributed to an engine failure, it could result in the FAA doing something to stop the use of said parts which could in turn prevent another accident. I think that's worth spending money on.

As for TC oversight, the company was inspected in 2001 when it became commercial (after several years of flying owner's employees to logging camps). In 2004 it got a major contract, added an airplane and a pilot and got audited. Not inspected, but audited. Paper. Wonder why I don't think SMS will work with the small ops? Everything was okay on paper. But the reality was, everything was not okay.

The owner's other company had already been found responsible by the provincial WCB/OHS and Cornoner Service of a death due to poor maintenance. But nobody passed that info on to TCCA, so they had no "extra" reason for concern.

The air taxi company is out of business now, yes, but the lack of information sharing means that the owner continues to operate his other businesses without special attention from government overseers. We can tell WorksafeBC that poor maintenance practices contributed to this accident until we are blue in the face, but unless the TSB tells them so, it means nothing. In the meantime, another worker has died on one of the same owners worksites.
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Post by Widow »

Dear Mrs. Stevens:

Thank you for your email of May 7, 2007 regarding the tragic death of your husband on February 28, 2005. Please allow me to extend my deepest sympathies to both you and your family.

I understand that Roberta Ellis, Vice President of Policy, Investigations and Review Division of WorkSafeBC, has written you regarding WorkSafeBC’s involvement in these circumstances. Ms. Ellis noted that because of constitutional limitations, WorkSafeBC cannot legally assume any oversight of the circumstances of the death of your husband and others in this tragic incident. As Ms. Ellis also advised you, the other authorities and parties with whom you have corresponded may be in a better position to assist you.

Not withstanding our lack of authority in this matter, by copy of this e-mail I am asking my federal counterpart, the Honourable Jean Pierre Blackburn, Minister of Labour, to give your request serious consideration.

Thank you for taking the time to write and provide this information to me.

Yours truly,

Olga Ilich
Minister

cc Honourable Jean Pierre Blackburn
Minister of Labour
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Post by CD »

Widow wrote:
Not withstanding our lack of authority in this matter, by copy of this e-mail I am asking my federal counterpart, the Honourable Jean Pierre Blackburn, Minister of Labour, to give your request serious consideration.
Well, I'm not sure how much that really means...

As has been mentioned here before, Part II of the Canada Labour Code and the associated Aviation Occupational Health & Safety Regulations only apply "...in respect of employees employed on aircraft while in operation..." In this accident, there was only one employee on board, as recognized by the Code - the pilot. The others were passengers on board and the CLC / AOH&SRs do not apply to them.

I guess it will be interesting to see how the federal minister responds.
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Post by Widow »

The problem is, the province cannot investigate the deaths of the non-aviation workers without the consent of the feds, or until the feds are finished their investigation. It has been over 26 months since the crash, and the feds have not reported any real information on the accident. The federal minister of labour is responsible for all labourers under the Code, not just federally regulated ones. His interest should be in an investigation into all five deaths, not just the pilots.
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Post by CD »

Widow wrote:The problem is, the province cannot investigate the deaths of the non-aviation workers without the consent of the feds, or until the feds are finished their investigation. It has been over 26 months since the crash, and the feds have not reported any real information on the accident.
I won't say that makes much sense but thanks for clarifying that (I may have missed the explanation or discussion earlier).
Widow wrote:The federal minister of labour is responsible for all labourers under the Code, not just federally regulated ones. His interest should be in an investigation into all five deaths, not just the pilots.
Understood. However, the only individual "working" at the time as an employee on board the aircraft was the pilot and therefore, I suspect that any interest expressed would be limited to the one individual. Which should still get some answers or action (maybe).

All this jurisdictional "naughty word" between the provincial and federal governments seems truly assinine... :smt102
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Post by CID »

Moved to new topic
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Post by Widow »

The four passengers were on their way to work. That means that legally they were working, or they would not have been covered by WCB and we would be suing MJM Air, and the AMO.

In the absence of an accident report from TSB, the provincial authorities have no information to investigate - the interpretation of the CARs and the causal factors of the accident have to come from an official source. So, as I say, the RCMP, the Coroner Service and WorkSafe BC are all waiting.

The whole jurisdictional access thing makes me crazy. In some provinces, jurisdiction over some federally regulated industries has been handed over to the provinces (at least in part) because it has caused this type of problem. We currently see this happening with Bill C-6 and DND.
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Post by Widow »

So here is the latest refusal from TSB to do an investigation for cause. I have commented in bold.
Dear Mrs. Stevens:

Thank you for your email of 25 May 2007, in which you requested that the Transportation Safety Board (TSB) investigate the cause of the MJM Airlines aircraft accident involving your husband. I would first like to say that I understand your loss and the losses of the other involved families as a result of this tragic accident, and your desire to know the reasons why this occurrence happened and what can be done to prevent future recurrences. I also appreciated the opportunity to meet you last week while you were in Ottawa, and to hear your concerns first hand.

I have now completed my examination of the background of this occurrence and can provide the following comments. I understand that in the time since this accident, our investigators have kept you and other affected families informed of the circumstances of the accident, our TSB mandate, and our Occurrence Classification Policy. In accordance with this policy, the TSB assesses each reported occurrence and determines those it will investigate.

While I understand that you are familiar with many of the following details, I am providing them again to ensure that I have addressed your concerns to the extent possible. On 28 February 2005, when the aircraft was declared missing, our investigators began file and document reviews, as well as the collation and evaluation of reports from other involved agencies. When your husband was found on 3 March 2005, an investigation into the cause of his death was initiated by the BC Coroners Service (BCCS) as required by provincial law. In accordance with the Memorandum of Understanding between the Attorney General for B.C. (the BC Coroners Service is part of the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General) and the TSB, our role became one to assist the BCCS in its investigation through the assigned coroner.

After the Department of National Defence Search and Rescue personnel could not find the aircraft and ended their search, our Regional Manager solicited and received Department of Fisheries and Oceans' support to help the families' ongoing search for the aircraft. That search was also unsuccessful in finding the sunken wreckage. Although the TSB had dispatched an Air Operations investigator to stand by during that search, there was no wreckage, accident location, accident time, radar data, or voice communication obtained. At that time, our efforts were necessarily limited to file and document review and to the collation and evaluation of reports from other involved agencies.


Once the wreckage was located and retrieved, we dispatched two TSB investigators on 29 July 2005 to examine the wreckage. While the engine was not recovered, that and subsequent examinations of the recovered wreckage determined that the engine was producing considerable power at the time of impact, based on the propeller scars on the floats. We also confirmed there was continuity of the flight controls, and all the fracture surfaces of broken components were characteristic of overload resulting from the forces of impact. There was a considerable amount of unburned engine oil inside the wreckage and some on the outside surfaces, and the distribution patterns were consistent with oil leaking from the engine oil reservoir after the accident, mostly during the recovery phases. There was no indication of in-flight fire. All this factual information and relevant risk factors were provided to the coroner in two TSB letters dated 22 June 2005 and 21 September 2005, and I understand you and the other families were briefed on their content.

We have never contended there was a fire, but rather leaking and burning oil - smoke which obscured the pilot's vision. While there certainly was a lot of oil which leaked on recovery, the evidence on the fuselage points to leaking oil and smoke ... relevant risk factors (such as the ineffectiveness of Type D flight following) were not reported on - the letter to the coroner is available on our website.

Although this accident is designated a Class 5 occurrence, it can be noted that we have not limited our attention because of that classification. Seven TSB investigators have been tasked at various stages to look at information or to review it. We have opened four TSB Engineering Branch laboratory projects to examine selected technical issues. All of the information we have uncovered to date has been passed on to the appropriate agents, and made available to you. As we discussed last week, I can also confirm that the conditional offer to pay the families' representative $10,000.00 toward the engine recovery, if it is recovered and handed over to the TSB in accordance with our original commitment, is still in place.

$10,000 reward for engine!


During this process, TSB personnel have considered each issue that has been brought to our attention since the accident, including the following: the possibility of an in-flight engine fire; the possibility of an engine stoppage; the legality and effectiveness of Type D Operational Control; the airworthiness of the floats fitted to the aircraft; the adequacy of the maintenance that was performed on the aircraft; the perceived flaws in the manufacture of engine cylinder hold-down studs; and the adequacy and frequency of Transport Canada Civil Aviation audits. These technical examinations did not reveal any safety issues that could compromise safe transportation operations.

Again, we never said fire - we said smoke - which evidence was obfuscated by the length of time between recovery and examination by TSB engineers, and the fact that they did not have/use the appropriate equipment to test for smoke as opposed to fire. We did not claim engine stoppage - but partial failure. How can they claim the Type D system did not affect the outcome/survivability of this accident? How can they claim the airworthiness of the floats had no effect ... they told us they did not have the knowledge to inspect them - they were inspected by TCCA Safety which resulted in an enforcement action ... They have refused to examine the financial records in comparison to the maintenance logs to confirm their validity - and the TCCA Safety Inspection clearly shows the logs were not kept accurately and that several irregular/illegal repairs were made! The engineering report on the sample studs (obtained well over a year post-accident) showed they were not made exactly to spec - according to TSB the differences were acceptable, according to our experts - probably not acceptable - especially if not bing properly maintained and at the end of life. As for audits/inspections ... since I have been informed "The Frequency of Inspection Policy Document directs Transport Canada to audit Air Taxi operators every 2.32 years and complete a mandatory inspection every 1.75 years. CAD 20 allows adjustments to these inspection and audit intervals based on the available resources and the risk indicators as listed in appendix “A” in CAD 20." ... I wonder how an inspection in 2001 followed by an audit in 2004 can possibly be acceptable?

You also wished to know if any additional information had been or will be provided to the Coroner. Since our second letter to the coroner on 21 September 2005, we continually have provided the coroner with all new information that we acquired, including the results of our technical examinations of parts.

I guess I'm going back to Access to Information, since we still haven't received the maintenance logs ourselves, nor any further copies of correspondance to the coroner.

We also discussed your concerns that the lack of a TSB investigation has hampered investigations by other Canadian government and provincial authorities. Please rest assured that the Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board Act specifically permits other organizations to conduct investigations in support of their respective legislation and mandates. Following our meeting, I asked our staff to contact Transport Canada and the Coroner to ensure there is no misunderstanding in this regard. They have confirmed that decisions on investigations under their responsibility are independent of our decisions on whether or not to investigate a specific occurrence. You may wish to contact Transport Canada, Human Resources and Social Development Canada, the Coroner, the RCMP or Worksafe BC to request information on the status of their investigations.

I have contacted them all, and they are all doing nothing, or waiting for more info from the TSB.

Regarding your request for the TSB to conduct a full investigation into this accident, I must conclude that a Class 5 designation is appropriate, and consistent with the Board's Occurrence Classification Policy. Specifically, any decision to raise the level of the occurrence classification would have to be based on the potential for an investigation to acquire new knowledge of the underlying safety deficiencies compromising safe transportation operations, as well as the potential of an investigation to advance transportation safety. To date, the information available to us is not sufficient to proceed to a full investigation. I can assure you that should any new information become available, we would re-evaluate whether or not to upgrade to a full investigation.

Yours sincerely,


Terry Burtch, P. Eng.
Director General, Investigation Operations/
Directeur général, Coordination des enquêtes
tel: (819)994-4135
So it seems to me that they are still basically saying, "unless you prove otherwise ... we stand by our theory that the pilot chose to fly into the water and kill everyone and there is nothing to learn from this accident which would prevent future incidents/accidents. The lack of flight following, communications, crash indicators, or other emergency devices/procedures have no bearing". Knowing my husband was still calling for help three hours later, then drowned slowly - means that I will never accept this position. With or without the engine I will be pursuing this issue.

But we still want the engine. We still believe that it is important to know what made the pilot turn around that day - we know something happened.

So, the final push is on. We need your help.

We believe we know how to do it. We know the approximate location, and can easily find the engine with the right equipment. But we need more money.

If you have a few spare dollars, and you agree this is a worthy cause ... please help fund the recovery:

TD Canada Trust
1400 Island Highway
Campbell River, BC
Transit # 9038
Acct #6259768
"Allison Decock In Trust"



If you know anyone with experience in deep water salvage, we have questions and ideas we would like to bounce around. If you know anyone who might be willing to help with donated/volunteered equipment or a boat (come hang around in an incredibly beautiful place) please let us know ...

Here is what we believe we need - an ROV able to go to depths up to 1000 feet, with a manipulator, real-time camera and sonar. We need more knowledge about dredging - the best way to blow silt at that depth ... We know this should be a relatively easy operation for someone experienced in deep water salvage - ancient wreck guys and treasure hunters and such ...

Who do you know? What can you do? Can or will you help?
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