The 40 Degree Flap Question

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Sun May 20, 2007 7:39 pm

Go ahead and try to prove 50 years of Beaver pilots wrong. Use full flap as a standard procedure. Insurance rates are not nearly high enough yet.

twotter · Post by **twotter** » Sun May 20, 2007 10:15 pm

Capt Pistolla wrote:Yup, started on the Twotter when all landings were 40 and all T/O's were 20. Sked work mostly.

Learned from the start so never was an issue...saw it start to become an issue with first timers that only did it or saw it occassionaly from the R/H seat and made it to L/H seat like that.

Just have to remember when not to use them, like strong or gust x-winds.

Just so you know, the max flaps on a Twotter is 37.5

Capt Pistolla · Post by **Capt Pistolla** » Mon May 21, 2007 4:46 am

Learn sumpin new every day

Unusual Attitude · Post by **Unusual Attitude** » Wed May 23, 2007 10:29 am

I've got about 1300 hours in Beavers on floats and have never seen the need to use full flap for landing. I have, however, used full flap for sailing on a regualr basis. But the way I figure it, if you can fly the aircraft safely with full flap then fill your boots. There's more than one way to skin a cat (sorry Cat).

float av8er · Post by **float av8er** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:50 pm

[quote="xsbank"]

Can never have too much flap![/quote]

This has to be the dumbest statement yet on any forum here. bar none!!!!
I've never found the need to use any more than 20 deg flap in a 180/185/206/172/170 on floats. Anyone who has any serious time on any of these birds will tell you that you're just asking for trouble if you use more. If the lake is sooo small that you need 30 deg or 40 deg for landing how the hell would you plan on getting out of it. You can accomplish all you need with 20 deg. my 2 cents.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:35 pm

If the lake is sooo small that you need 30 deg or 40 deg for landing how the hell would you plan on getting out of it. You can accomplish all you need with 20 deg. my 2 cents

Well I can think of a few reasons that full flaps would be the choice for a short low as possible touch down speed on water.

The airplane was designed and flight tested and certified for the use of full flaps, therefore if a situation calls for full flaps then use full flaps....it is designed to be safe with full flaps...period...

Anyone who has any serious time on any of these birds will tell you that you're just asking for trouble if you use more.

With all due respect I must say that is a dumb statement, who ever gave you that phobia? And what do you consider " serious time "?

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source pho·bi·a (fō'bē-ə) Pronunciation Key
n.
A persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid it, despite the awareness and reassurance that it is not dangerous.

twotter · Post by **twotter** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:31 pm

float av8er wrote:
xsbank wrote:
Can never have too much flap!
This has to be the dumbest statement yet on any forum here. bar none!!!!
I've never found the need to use any more than 20 deg flap in a 180/185/206/172/170 on floats. Anyone who has any serious time on any of these birds will tell you that you're just asking for trouble if you use more. If the lake is sooo small that you need 30 deg or 40 deg for landing how the hell would you plan on getting out of it. You can accomplish all you need with 20 deg. my 2 cents.

Just with your statement, you have proven that you cannot have much time on type.

Why would you want to touch down on the water at a higher speed than necessary? I've seen a lot of this over the last few years and it boggles my mind.

The flaps were put on airplanes for a reason, if you cannot handle it safely with 40 on a 180/185/whatever or with landing on a -2 or -3 (non turbine) you shouldn't be flying the airplane unsupervised.

AdamB · Post by **AdamB** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:16 pm

To stop all of you from verbally murdering eachother - whats the airplane with the biggest flap setting you've flown? For me, the Birddog with a whopping 60 degrees. Does it get any further than that on other planes?

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:22 pm

Actually, I have used full flap on a Beav to get in to 'small' areas, like into a sheltered bay when it was really rough outside and your landing 'roll' would take you into the swells. You drop your load and take off light and are off before the rough water or you launch off just the right swell.

Or when it was too windy to safely turn around and its too rough to sail back without the engine running or you will bury the tails and sink backwards; you don't want to spend all day trying to get to the dock. Full flap land short.

You are landing in a busy harbour, you think all is well and you spot boat swells or unexpected debris short final - you can go around or you can pop full flap and land short.

You have to land some guys at a camp on a windy lakeside, you land over top of them as close to the shore as you can and you sail back to tail onto the shore.

Just some examples I can think of...

Float av8or, you need to get out more. If you are dropping off and leaving empty, you can get out of lots of small places. You must not have any experience beyond lakes - there's a whole lot more world out there.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:35 am

WTF is going on in aviation these days, the more I read Avcanada the more dumbfounded I am getting regarding the lack of airmanship and basic flying skills that seems to be rampant in the industry.

No wonder there are so many wrecked airplanes littering the landscape....the pilots don't seem to be able to out think the airplanes someone is giving them to fly.

twotter · Post by **twotter** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:13 am

AdamB wrote:To stop all of you from verbally murdering eachother - whats the airplane with the biggest flap setting you've flown? For me, the Birddog with a whopping 60 degrees. Does it get any further than that on other planes?

Hey Adam,
Did you defy death and actually try landing with the full 60?

I used to fly those things many years ago and if I remember right, they handle just fine with 60.

Over the Horn · Post by **Over the Horn** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:37 pm

everytime I read this thread I get pissed off!

I've never found the need to use any more than 20 deg flap in a 180/185/206/172/170 on floats. Anyone who has any serious time on any of these birds will tell you that you're just asking for trouble if you use more. If the lake is sooo small that you need 30 deg or 40 deg for landing how the hell would you plan on getting out of it. You can accomplish all you need with 20 deg.

BULLSHIT!!!! to all you 200hr wonders reading this don't believe this crap!!
There's nothing wrong with full flap ( especially on a Cessna) the slower the touchdown speed the better, as for small lakes its like anything use common sense don't try to pull the same load out of a high alpine lake as you would a 10 mile long lake near sea level this isn't rocket science!!! just COMMON SENSE!!! why the hell are you paying all that money to flight schools if they don't teach you BASIC stick & rudder airmanship if they won't let you use full flap or land in a crosswind I say walk because your getting ripped off!!

and now the only way to solve this for me is BEEEEEEEER!!!!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:08 pm

why the hell are you paying all that money to flight schools if they don't teach you BASIC stick & rudder airmanship if they won't let you use full flap or land in a crosswind I say walk because your getting ripped off!!

They are paying all that money to flight schools because there is no other way to get into aviation except to be financially sodomized by some flight schools who are unable to even teach the very basics of flying.

That is why Transport Canada must get out of the business of total control of the flight training business and allow flight training to be conducted by people who know the subject.

As it now stands the industry is being dummed down to the lowest knuckle dragger that has power in TC flight training....soon the average pilot will be as fu.kin incompetent as those in TC who are responsible for the quality of flight training.

And that friends is why you should think twice before getting into an airplane with some of these guys who haven't the faintest idea of how to fly an airplane.

push_nbush · Post by **push_nbush** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:26 pm

Hey Cat make up your mind wich side of the fence your on. In other threads your against transport and SMS, sayin their tryin to get out of bein responsible if somethin goes wrong by implementing SMS, here you say they should get out of regulating flight schools. Get a life or take up golf or something. Quit bein a catankerous old armchair pilot, who keeps claiming to have all this sh**t against TC. I'm beginnin to think all the sh**t you got is sprouting off at the mouth IMHO.
I'm not sayin that there aren't some shady operators out there who will take advantage of SMS, but they're already out there takin advantage of the system we now have in place. For the majority of the honest operators SMS will not make a big difference. Just a little more paper work, We have so much paper now whats a little more.
There are alot less bad operators nowadays than ther was twenty thirty years ago.

Big Pistons Forever · Post by **Big Pistons Forever** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:30 pm

And now for something completely different I will provide what I believe is the answer to the question asked at the beginning of this post.

Most single engine cessna's max flap was reduced to 30 degree when continued increases in gross weight meant the airplane could no longer demonstrate sufficent performance during a full flap go around, which is a certification requirement.

Why does every question in Avcanada eventually result in a airmanship dick length measurement slug fest ?

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:04 pm

I've seen Cat's "sh!t" and it is real. In fact, it smells delicious.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:25 pm

Well push_nbush seeing as how you want to be insulting and make statements that you have no way to back up let me fill you in on what the truth is.

From this bit in your first post I gather you are an operator in NWT.

I have a reputation for running a pretty good operation.

Your first anonymous post was to attack an operator who has the honesty and strength of their convictions to step foward using their true names and try and change the industry for the good knowing they may be ruined by doing so.

Now you have the audacity to attack me with personal insults which I couldn't care less about and flat out state I have no proof of my position regarding the corruption that is so engrained at the top level of TCCA's management.

Therefore seeing as it is coming from a coward hiding behind a made up name lets dissect this last bit of drivel you posted...

Hey Cat make up your mind wich side of the fence your on. In other threads your against transport and SMS, sayin their tryin to get out of bein responsible if somethin goes wrong by implementing SMS,

That is correct it is my beliefe that SMS at the 703 level of aviation is a cop out by TC and will give free reign to crooked operators to pencil whip unsafe operations.

here you say they should get out of regulating flight schools

.

You obviously cant read and comprehend English very well, so let me explain it so you might grasp my position regarding TC's oversite of flight training.

My position is that TC should get out of their total control of how flight training is conducted and drop the need for an FTU OC and allow anyone with an instructors rating to set up a training school with the only cavaet being that the student be tested by an independent flight testing process that has no vested intrest in the school or any of the schools employees.

I see nothing wrong with the end product ( the student ) being given a PPL or CPL or ATPL based on passing the standards that are set in place to qualify for said licenses.

Get a life or take up golf or something.

I have a life, in fact at the moment I am at my summer home and about to launch my sail boat tomorrow for the summer sailing that I plan on doing whenever I get the urge.

Quit bein a catankerous old armchair pilot, who keeps claiming to have all this sh**t against TC. I'm beginnin to think all the sh**t you got is sprouting off at the mouth IMHO.

Shove your insults up your anus, because I do have enough " shit " documented to convince the Minister of Transport to clean up the systemic rot and unlawful methods that Merlin Preuss is condoning within TCCA.....notice that widow has seen a lot of my documentation, or do you feel she also is just some malcontent that does not have a clue.

I'm not sayin that there aren't some shady operators out there who will take advantage of SMS, but they're already out there takin advantage of the system we now have in place. For the majority of the honest operators SMS will not make a big difference. Just a little more paper work, We have so much paper now whats a little more.

You are a dream come true for Preuss and his ilk, the perfect myopic sheep.

There are alot less bad operators nowadays than ther was twenty thirty years ago.

Please show some proof of that statement, as I would love to see it.

push_nbush · Post by **push_nbush** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:07 pm

YOU ask ME for proof that aviation has less bad operators than it did 20 30 years ago as I earlier stated. Yet you still run off at the mouth about what YOU have against TC to convince Merlin Prueuss for TC to clean up their act. HOW ABOUT YOU SHOW SOME OF THIS SO CALLED PROOF YOU HAVE. No really Cat what did happen between you and TC. Way back when? Were you trying to run a shady operation and they caught on to you and shut you down? Maybe your competition was a little better than you and ran a legal safe operation and you have a bad taste in your mouth for having been singled out and shut down for due cause, and you are now trying to use this site to seem like a saint. AS I SAID EARLIER GET OFF THE F*KIN fence. If you have a true and just complaint against TC take em to court, if not quit tryin to warp the minds of young people against the industry. TC and the operators who have to hire the youguns with fresh CPLs as apprendices, even though most of them don't realise they're an apprendice because they have a piece of paper that says they're a cpl they still have much to learn.
As far as widow goes my condolences, I as well have lost friends in this industry but when an ACCIDENT happens I don't try to blame the whole industry on an ACCIDENT. SH*T HAPPENS SOMETIMES BEYOND OUR MOST STRINGENT OF CONTROLS.
Some accidents are preventable, some just seem to fall outside of the category of preventability, no matter what industry you may be involved with, Face the facts of life you can take all the preventive measures immanginable, accidents will still happen. We strive to keep theese to a minimum but as earlier said, open your eyes and face reality sometimes SH*T happens beyond our control.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:24 pm

No really Cat what did happen between you and TC. Way back when? Were you trying to run a shady operation and they caught on to you and shut you down? Maybe your competition was a little better than you and ran a legal safe operation and you have a bad taste in your mouth for having been singled out and shut down for due cause, and you are now trying to use this site to seem like a saint. AS I SAID EARLIER GET OFF THE F*KIN fence

push_bush,you are way off base on all counts in fact you are so far off base it is pathetic.

I have outlined my issues with TC many times here on Avcanada and it had zero to do with me operating a flying service.

You are coming across like a low grade moron by making unfounded assumptions about me and what I have done in aviation.

So let me explain something to you.

My history and dedication to safety for over fifty years in aviation is something for you and everyone else to strive to equal.

And if you do a little research you will find that you just might want to take some training from me to improve your own skills and knowlege of the aviation business..

Of course you are free to keep making a complete ass of yourself with your unfounded assumptions on something you have zero knowlege of ..so continue to make yourself look like a moron..your doing real good so far.

Oh and as to this::

If you have a true and just complaint against TC take em to court,

I have taken TC through the legal process over a three year process...I won on every issue and the findings were TCCA were in contrevention of their own regulations, rules and policies.....

That is why I try and educate the younguns on how corrupt TCCA is under the leadership of Merlin Preuss......

Hope that satisfies you, and if you have an IQ above room temperature you should have figured out that I can back up these allegations with documentation that is irrefutable.....

Remember I post openly with my real name.

push_nbush · Post by **push_nbush** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:46 pm

IMHO CAT, it is still a bunch of SH*t comin from you because so far it is just your claims of what you have done, once again you asked ME for proof, Where is your proof about what you claim to have accomplished.
I do not claim to have acclomplished much in aviation,but I can say I have taught a lot of young pilots to fly safely, my proof is out there flying the skies of this great country of ours. Where's yours?

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:09 pm

So push_nbush, your "proof is out there flying the skies of this great country of ours" where there is a greater risk of dying on the job (air taxi) than in any other job in the country? Your proof stinks link skunk.

In case you forgot, I've seen Cat's (. .'s) proof. In fact, I have copies of much of it in my own files. Forget that. Do you think either Cat OR I, could make the claims we make - publicly - if there was not substantial PROOF?

Give your head a shake buddy. Of course accidents will always happen, but that does NOT mean that TCCA should ignore the recognized (by their own reviews) problems. But they do, and people who refuse to admit to the problems, only make the cancer worse.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:10 pm

my proof is out there flying the skies of this great country of ours. Where's yours?

Well I don't know where to start push_nbush as I have been training pilots all over the world and I am one of the higest paid flight training pilots in the world.....

Try doing a little research and maybe you will change your attitude as to my background.....and I am still quite active in aviation and still not finished with flying for hire.....in fact my next training contract is in South Africa most likely sometime this fall.

Here is something you could do...go to your local video rental store and ask for the movie " Below " by Mirimax....fast foward to the end of the movie and read the credits of the cast of characters in the movie....the first name is mine....

I did all the flying for that movie in England and am waiting for a movie that is planned by Speilberg about the Berlin Air Lift and I have been offered a position as a pilot for that upcoming movie shoot, so you see I'm not exactly a has been yet.

You were asking me for proof of my background, there there is an easy one for you it will only cost you the amount to rent a movie.

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:17 pm

Or he could do what I did when I first encountered you and wondered if you'd gone off your rocker. Didn't cost me a dime. I googled your name. What I found was enough to make me certain that the Cat knows the game.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:33 pm

Thanks widow, it is really sad when we have to go to the extent of " Proving " who we really are to people to afraid of who they are to even identify themselves.....

Can you imagine the bandwith I would take up here on Avcanada if I were to post all the unusual flying jobs I have had all over the world?

Hell when you were at my house we never even started into the magazine articles that have been written about me and my partners in Europe....

And of course there is the for life pilot identification that was given to me by Air France for the flying I did for them..and Airbus giving me the A320 course for flying for them and the Breightling watch that was given to me by Breightling, one of my sponsors in the air show flying business in Europe and flying for the French TV TF1 in Africa and South America and.....on and on and on.....

1000 HP · Post by **1000 HP** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:00 pm

Another GREAT !! reason for full flap on a Beaver: About 17 years ago, I was medivacing a young, dumb, fellow from Namiwan Lake in Ontario. He and his brother had gotten into a fight over a bottle of whisky (really) and bro had shot other bro in the guts with a .30-.30. The father walked out ( 30 miles on rotten ice ) and sent me for help. Despite my misgivings, due to the conditions of the ice this late in the year, myself and the head nurse went to extract the fellow. The Beaver was on wheels at this point, as all the snow had melted and there was no use for skis. The landing was uneventful, and we loaded the victim, who was septic and near death. On talk-off, a mainwheel broke partially through the ice and I stomped on the opposite rudder, straitening the aircraft. Then the other wheel broke through the (top layer) of ice, and we swerved the other way. I pumped on full flap and and popped the wobbly beast into the air. It flew which beats crashing. HAIL FULL FLAP