Direct-entry EMB Captains

rectanglepants · Post by **rectanglepants** » Thu May 31, 2007 6:58 pm

Can anyone shed some light on this rumour I've heard that there are left seat spots on the Embraer available to new hires?

If this is the case, what is the incentive? If the pay is the same flat salary for the first year or two, who in their right mind would take the risk of flunking out and getting turfed?

Thanks in advance.

Jeremy Kent · Post by **Jeremy Kent** » Thu May 31, 2007 7:57 pm

The pay isn't the same, and I don't think anyone's going direct-entry. New bid should be out soon, but I'd be VERY surprised to see that happen.

Old fella · Post by **Old fella** » Thu May 31, 2007 8:11 pm

I have never flown for any airline; consequently I know @#$! all about that type of operation. Having said that, I find it difficult to believe a major carrier like AC would stuff somebody in the left seat off the street without said individual having some kind of exposure to the Air Canada system prior to being assigned command. I can bet the training for such position is rigorous, ditto line training but Jesus, ya think AC would want to demand some time with “their” system prior to. Is the internal pilot situation that bad when the good guys/gals turn up their noses on four stripes on the less attractive aircraft (E90 and CRJ) – correct me if I am wrong. If it is, one would think Air Canada’s knowledgeable (??) management would to see to it and sweeten the pot and grease the skids for Air Canada’s best and brightest rather than being exposed to any risk with folks who have not served any time in the junior ranks. This is not to suggest those folks are not first rate individuals – cause they are but haven’t ya got to be in the system in order to understand it. And finally, I am of the opinion the starting salaries at the majors are disgraceful.
Then again maybe I don’t know @#$! all!!!!!!!!!!!!

linebacker35 · Post by **linebacker35** » Thu May 31, 2007 10:16 pm

They have done it before when they first got the RJ's, so it wouldnt be anything new

ca787546 · Post by **ca787546** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:12 am

Just out of the blue, what if you have an A340 captain fed up with being an expat, 10000 hours total, 4000 hours as captain on heavy jets (I'm talking 737 and bigger) and wants to come into AirCanada, passes the interviews and all? I mean, I understand the "AC system" is not exactly the same, but this is a captain with plenty of experience, airline experience, command experience, maybe even some administrative/managerial experience, maybe some instructor experience (TRI/TRE). Do you think it'd be a good idea to maybe consider such candidate to go DE 330/340 Captain? I think so myself.
Cheers,
DNB

Johnny767 · Post by **Johnny767** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:41 am

Your therory is not bad, except, Air Canada has a Seniority system. As such you can not cherry pick your candidates.

On any given coures, the guy out of the right seat of a B1900, could be senior to said ex-Widebody Captain.

Unless they attempt to have a complete course of high time guys and place them all in the EMB Left Seat.

I don't know how they did it on the CRJ?

Crackberry · Post by **Crackberry** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:24 am

Air Canada no longer puts new hires in the left seat. Used to be so but now you must have completed probation (1Yr) to be trained and it is happening as we speak.

CB

Dockjock · Post by **Dockjock** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:07 pm

As far as I know, the crewing concept at major unionized airlines including Air Canada works like this.

-Company forecasts how many pilots are required to fly the aircraft existing/on order
-Take the number of pilots currently employed, and subtract the retirements over the next year
-Put the "equipment bid" out. Current pilots bid for the available positions and are awarded their seats based on seniority.
-Unfilled positions are crewed by hiring.

Direct entry captains would only be required if there were unfilled/unbid captains positions after all current employees had their bid. It is unlikely to see this on an EMJ let alone a 340 in a union shop!!

Traf · Post by **Traf** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:14 pm

Just out of the blue, what if you have an A340 captain fed up with being an expat, 10000 hours total, 4000 hours as captain on heavy jets (I'm talking 737 and bigger) and wants to come into AirCanada, passes the interviews and all?

He will need time to become GODLIKE!!! No one off the street, regardless of prior experience can be one of the "ELITE" without some training

ca787546 · Post by **ca787546** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:35 pm

good one Traf, I think you and dockjob summed up the reality of it all. I mean, it sucks for the guys that have been in a company for 4-5 year to miss their command because they hired people off the street, but also, if I've only been on a company 2 years and a guy that has much more experience than me, has captain experience on heavy jets, yada yada yada came in only 6 months ago and I end up being his captain... well, let's just says I don't think the guy on the left should be less experienced than the guy on the right. But that's my point of view, and may not be 100% right.
Cheers,
DNB

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:49 am

ca787546 wrote: good one Traf, I think you and dockjob summed up the reality of it all. I mean, it sucks for the guys that have been in a company for 4-5 year to miss their command because they hired people off the street, but also, if I've only been on a company 2 years and a guy that has much more experience than me, has captain experience on heavy jets, yada yada yada came in only 6 months ago and I end up being his captain... well, let's just says I don't think the guy on the left should be less experienced than the guy on the right. But that's my point of view, and may not be 100% right.
Cheers,
DNB

This is how it works. A pilot has the seniority to hold a position in the left seat of an aircraft. He gets awarded it and then has to do a course. He has to pass said course and all the requirements to be fully qualified in the left seat of that aircraft. Why should that pilot get scooped by another junior pilot just because that other pilot has more experience? If that less experienced Captain is smart he will learn from the more experienced First Officer anyway.

The seniority system works, and the safeguard against incompetent Captains is the training and checking regimen they have to complete. It's not always foolproof, but it's the best we've got. The alternative is awarding seats by skill, merit, experience or just because the guy's got better looking hair. That system is just asking for unequal application if not outright abuse.

Your pilot you mention in your original post will have to take that into consideration when he leaves his TRE 340 job and live with it. Many have already.

ca787546 · Post by **ca787546** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:01 am

I know how the seniority system works. It is a good alternative, but sometimes, I think it is more expensive for the company to have a seniority system, and trust me, most airlines in the world (including the one I currently work for) require their captains to pass such training/course/exams/psychological evals, etc etc. That's the way it works in most parts of the world. I'm just saying it is nicer when the captain is more experienced than the FO.
Cheers,
DNB

MacDoo · Post by **MacDoo** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:48 pm

Been with the company 9 months (on the EMJ), and talked to Barb Pope last week about the chances of getting the left seat on the next bid. She said maybe, but not likely. Hence, I doubt they will revert to direct entry captains.

ca787546 · Post by **ca787546** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:08 pm

See, that's the thing about the seniority system. Don't take me wrong, I think AirCanada's system is one of the best out there. I mean, if you're a senior guy with AC, it absolutely rules! I would rather be a senior guy in AC than a senior guy in most airlines out there. Let's imagine the imaginary captain that I mentioned earlier on this post. He is definitely not in his 20s, probably late 30s or early 40s. He is an experienced guy, sound pilot, has plenty of command experience in heavy jets-wide bodies, and he can go as an FO in an EMJ or 320 or maybe RP in triple-7 at AC or go make 130K USD tax-free for Emirates/Qatar/Etihad as a captain in a triple-7, 330, 340. I just think it's a shame this guy either has to suck it up to keep his expertise in his country and fly as an FO for who knows how long or have to sacrifice living at home in Canada so he can fulfill his career and support his family with a nice lifestyle. I know AC doesn't owe anything to anyone, but I do believe that somewhere out there a solution could exist for people like that. In reality, maybe I'm just too much of an idealistic person.
Cheers,
DNB

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:55 pm

The solution does exist for that pilot. Go to work overseas at a big foreign airline to get a fast leg up, or go to work at a charter company in Canada to get a fast upgrade. But if he wants to work at Air Canada, with a decades old seniority list, welcome to the bottom. It's his choice entirely.

Old fella · Post by **Old fella** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:39 pm

Rockie wrote:The solution does exist for that pilot. Go to work overseas at a big foreign airline to get a fast leg up, or go to work at a charter company in Canada to get a fast upgrade. But if he wants to work at Air Canada, with a decades old seniority list, welcome to the bottom. It's his choice entirely.

Well, if I may be permitted to add an additional comment on this very subject it is on the very item that I do know and that is age. Remember that old buggers – and I mean anybody 40+ are set in their ways, no matter what their previous experience/aircraft type endorsements/geographical location and they carry that with them. Old people do – take it from me cause I am one. We all had situations that bugged us/ pissed us off/concerned us and we do carry that as baggage - you will to.
Younger guys/gals are enthustic, quick learners and are eager…………. That is why I always enjoy being around them. Please, don’t hit me with that shit about jet/turbine/glass/FMS requirements cause the younger set adapt quite easily as speed is relative, glass in another way of presenting and FMS is a glorified calculator. You will be taught that.

Over and Out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

asdfasd · Post by **asdfasd** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:32 pm

glass in another way of presenting and FMS is a glorified calculator.

A calculator that is always turned on, always working at its best, never get tired, is perfectly trained and remembers whatever you tell it to.

Old fella · Post by **Old fella** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:40 pm

....... and you will be taught to enter data correctly!!

ca787546 · Post by **ca787546** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:11 pm

Well Old Fella, you did hit the nail on the head with that one, but I guess if all old fellas were as honest with themselves as you are, some cockpits would be nicer to be in

Cheers,
DNB

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:33 am

I have to agree with Rockie on this one. Air Canada's pilot list has always been (well as long as I can remember anyway) seniority driven, so anyone who left Canada to be an expat would have been well aware of that before they left. So why would they expect things to change just for them? For someone to leave Canada for a fast track to big airplanes then decide its not what they wanted, come back to Canada and expect to get slotted in above everyone else is pretty arrogant.

If you do some reading on pprune you'll find that hiring DEC is a great way to piss off your pilot group.

AC has a system and it works just fine. If you want to fly for AC, you have to accept that or look for somewhere else to apply.

ca787546 · Post by **ca787546** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:58 pm

Hmmm... Let's see... how do I put this without making it sound arrogant (I don't really want to be arrogant anyway, not my thing). I have worked for a couple airlines around the world. I am an FO, and both airlines I have worked for do or have done the DEC thing. Yes, it does piss some people off, and it is completely understandable why. Also, the FOs still made it to captain fairly quick, if there was a need, the company would hold the requirements for captain and if they couldn't fulfill it with the current FOs, then they would take DECs, which makes sense (although it really sucks for the ones that just barely didn't make it past the bar). As an FO, I completely understand why the AC system is great, and don't take it wrong, I am not trying to put it down or anything. Also as an FO, I have flown and learn quite a lot from very talented, knowledgeable, experienced and skilled DE commanders that would not have been there otherwise. I'm just saying that it isn't arrogant, it is just an alternative that has it's pros and cons, just like everything else in life. If I am to move back to Canada and get an AC job (which I would absolutely love), I am prepared to go to the back of the line and go through the loops just like the rest of the people; and like it has been said, if you can't afford to sustain your family with the AC salary given to an ERJ FO on first year, then I guess you have to stay abroad or wherever you happen to be.
Cheers,
DNB

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:23 pm

That didn't sound arrogant to me at all. Overseas airlines that hire DEC's have either undergone explosive growth or are in an area of the world that doesn't have a bottom to top industry like Canada, Europe and the United States. The same doesn't apply to Air Canada where they have no problem getting Captains from within their own ranks. Some FO's are bypassed especially now that they are in their own growth period, but those bypassed retain their seniority and when they have the experience, knowledge and skill necessary they will reclaim their natural place in the whole scheme of things as vacancies come open.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:25 pm

If I can just add to some of what guys are saying about how highly experienced candidates should be given direct entry to the left seat. Just because someone looks good on paper does not make them an instant commander.

I have been training a diverse crowd on the Embraer and some of the best candidates were B1900 pilots from CMA while some of the worst were ex commanders of heavy stuff. To the point where I could not believe they were previously in command of any aircraft, let alone a heavy jet or turboprop.

Usually guys in that category are older too, like myself and get somewhat set in their ways, thus making the training a little less effective. Someone with an open mind and a clean slate will accept the differences and not always make comparisons to a Boeing or Airbus which, after two years on the Embraer, I still find myself doing.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:13 am

completely off topic...
Jaques Strappe, that avatar of yours is funny as hell, and so true.