Bad postion reports

Shiny Side Up · Post by **Shiny Side Up** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:37 am

skycoupe wrote:
Shiny Side Up wrote:Unfortunately there's always the chance some idiot might be incoming from your 4 o'clock to 8 o'clock high or low who isn't paying attention in which case hope that you hear them coming, otherwise your number just happens to be up.

Wow .. nice attitude

Its true! You can only keep as best of track of what's infront of you, and hope that everyone else is keeping track of whats in front of them. If you really knew how many are out there, not on the correct frequency, without a radio, or just plain asleep at the stick, you'd either stay on the ground (and just worry about the people in motor vehicles who are likewise negligent in their driving practices) or just fly and not worry about it. I mean I've even known some out there who would purposely sneak up on another aircraft just to give them a scare, not to mention those who are out there do it by accident. I mean it would be nice if I had someone in a few turrets to watch out for this sort of thing - but I don't.

2R · Post by 2R » Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:03 am

Look out the window !!!!
Do not be dead right !!!!

rfcPilot · Post by **rfcPilot** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:56 pm

Shiny, could always fly a B-52 with a few of your best mates at the hands of the 50cals

dxpr · Post by **dxpr** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:12 am

My favorite position report goes like this...

We're 30 miles back from somespot....

what f-ing direction is back?

How can I tell if you are a conflict? What if I'm 30 miles "back" too?

How about 30 miles NORTH of somespot.

And VFR pilots should know where VOR's etc are.... just because you are fat dumb and happy cruising along in your beaver with no clue where anything is, doesn't mean the rest of us are so oblivious.

When I give reports I'll say something like...

".... 30 miles north west of somespot VOR..." (insert airport, NDB, VOR etc) implying that we are proceeding to that fix.

and as always please plan your content...

we uhhh are uhhh 30 uhhh....

(my first rant on av-canada)

Any questions?

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:20 am

And VFR pilots should know where VOR's etc are

... and IFR pilots are supposed to know where colourful local landmarks, such as "the bridge that used to be painted silver" is located? NBL.

Everyone knows where the airport is. I hope. Call your position relative to the (uncontrolled) airport. Example:

Good call: "Buttfark Traffic, ABC is 5 mile final runway 13"

Bad call: "Buttfark Traffic, ABC is FGTURZPL inbound"

VFR traffic is unlikely in the extreme to have memorized all the waypoints of all the IFR approaches. Call #2 is nearly a complete waste of bandwidth.

jjj · Post by **jjj** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:42 am

Phillyfan,

Are IFR position reports difficult for you to decipher because you don't have any navaids in your plane or because you don't know what a radial is?

rfcPilot · Post by **rfcPilot** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:03 am

dxpr, I must wonder, did you get any FORMAL navaid training during your PPL? I doubt it. Most people dont. So no, some VFR pilot wont know about it. Most also wont give a shit about your position report as soon as you mention a navaid. I for one (even knowing about VOR/ADF) will just ignore the person calling.

Two reasons. A) I dont feel like pulling out my map and doing calculations because some IFR dick is too lazy to give a proper VFR position report (see Hedley's comment). And B) I dont have any nav instruments in my aircraft, so I cant use them to help me find out where you are.

Want to give a good position report? Height ASL, direction, intentions (if anything special, such as inbound for landing), and location relative to either the airport for which you are on frequency, or relative to a distuinguishable natural landmark such as a large lake, or town, or other.

"Bla bla traffic, Piper Navajo FABC eastbound 4000ASL 30NM away of VOR bla bla on radial 045 bla bla bla"

Kthx for tying up the frequency... now I have to go to my map (which is likely in the map compartment), unfold it, find the certain VOR, guestimate the 45degree radial and guestimate 30NM away.

"Bla bla traffic, Piper Navajo FABC 2000ASL 20NM northeast from bla bla (airport), westbound. Any conflicting please advise FABC"

Ahh, thats better.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:30 am

Yes, Cat, I think they really are this stupid. :/

Some of the attitudes here are down right frightening.

I can't believe the anamosity between the IFR and VFR pilots....

....wow...

Don't these people realize that it makes no difference if you are flying IFR or VFR both will be equally dead if they run into each other.

There used to be a thought process that demanded you know all the information regarding your flight and if understanding basics such as the relationship of a VOR to your position is to difficult to wrap your mind around what else don't you know about flying airplanes.

Stunning stuff I'm reading here.

rfcPilot · Post by **rfcPilot** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:33 am

Cat Driver, maybe you'd want to complain to TC to have them teach navaids as part of PPL then.

eternalhold · Post by **eternalhold** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:38 am

DEAR GOD NOOOooooooo!!!!! I wish I did but never will understand why people insist on those last few words "any conflicting please advise"?!

Now THAT is a complete waste of electrons. No! if I'm in conflict I WILL NOT ADVISE... how else am I suppose to sneek up and scare the crap out someone if they know where I am?

Follow the format on the back of the CFS, abbreviate it if you like, just make what you have to say count. And it really isn't that hard of grab the VNC look at the VOR compass rose and guesstimate a radial or distance (re: rule of thumb). It's called situational awareness, know where you are and what you're in relation to, if somebody is 10 south inbound on the 180, 180 I might not know but if I'm south of the same point I better be looking. Most NDBs are located at or close enough to the airport to act as the same waypoint. And what is the inconvience about looking at a chart? What are we doing enroute that makes grabbing it to take a peek so damn hard?

Pick something easy for most of us understand or find (major rivers, lakes, highways, airports, VOR ect. And remember altitude is your friend, I don't care where JAL is if they're 20k above me or if FUXX is 5k below as long as we're all level.

And what the hell is so hard about NAVAIDs, I could teach a monkey to use a VOR or NDB. They are simple simple, simple, they're covered during ground school and you should have been introduced to them durng the instrument portion of your license. If you don't understand them ask your instructor to teach you during your next COT or flight review.

After all of this, if you still don't get them plug it into your GPS and it will tell and show you exactly where and how far away it is.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:41 am

Cat Driver, maybe you'd want to complain to TC to have them teach navaids as part of PPL then.

Brilliant, that really shows that you are a real pro.

Why don't you ....naw responding in annoyance to something that stupid would put me in your catagory.

rfcPilot:

A copied this from one of your posts and I will let your own words speak for your attitude about safety and flying.

The way I see it... shit happens, people die, people learn, businesses and agencies dont.

Flying is dangerous, if you think there will be a day without aviation accidents.. that'll never happen. (And if it does, I hope Im not around to see that day for that'll be hugely boring)

If I read that correctly you would be bored if there were no accidents?

Grey_Wolf · Post by **Grey_Wolf** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:52 am

Don't these people realize that it makes no difference if you are flying IFR or VFR both will be equally dead if they run into each other.

And that's why folks it's just as easy to ask the other pilot for clarification. No need to get mad at them, or create a hazard by either not responding or "sneaking up" on them. Simply Ask. Isn't that part of safe flying and PDM? To get information, process it, and make a competent safe decision?

Let the biases go, jeez.

rfcPilot · Post by **rfcPilot** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:01 pm

And what the hell is so hard about NAVAIDs, I could teach a monkey to use a VOR or NDB. They are simple simple, simple, they're covered during ground school and you should have been introduced to them durng the instrument portion of your license. If you don't understand them ask your instructor to teach you during your next COT or flight review.

After all of this, if you still don't get them plug it into your GPS and it will tell and show you exactly where and how far away it is.

Some people I know did their PPL in aircrafts that didnt even have a VOR. Others did their training in aircrafts that did have a VOR (or some other navaid layout) but unless the student asks, there is no mention. Mostly, because its not part of PPL.

I learned my navaids through night rating. Thats about it. Instrument (hood time?) in PPL? Huh, lol dont cover navs there either.

Plug in your GPS? Christ I didnt know we all had 500 dollar (and up) aviation GPS units. Shit I better get to the store.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:03 pm

I could teach a monkey to use a VOR or NDB

Sure, but if you attempt to use any radio nav on your private pilot flight test, Transport Canada edict is that you will fail.

So, I really can't blame private pilots for not knowing how to use VOR or ADF, since Transport discourages their teaching and use. They might not have one in the panel anyways, and if it's there, even money as to whether it will function.

rfcPilot · Post by **rfcPilot** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:04 pm

Cat Driver, some people do things for the thrill. Rock climbing, flying, driving, sky diving, bungee jumping, skinny dipping, and so on. Whats the point of (most of) those activities if there is no risk involved?

Heck, if I lived life knowing I'd be a straight A student, knowing I'd never get my heart broken by a girlfriend or boyfriend, knowing I'd drive down the road and all the other drivers would be skilled, going flying knowing there is no bad weather or dumb pilots in the sky, or walking down the road knowing I wont get rainned on... I wouldnt do any of it. It would be (IMO) bloody boring.

Like is a risk, take it, enjoy it, live it, talk about it.

rfcPilot · Post by **rfcPilot** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:05 pm

Hedley wrote:
I could teach a monkey to use a VOR or NDB

Sure, but if you attempt to use any radio nav on your private pilot flight test, Transport Canada edict is that you will fail.

Didnt know that. Cheers for clarifying.

Mr.Schneiders · Post by **Mr.Schneiders** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:06 pm

I remember from my flight school having seen people (during my (and their) PPL training) really not knowing anything about the VOR and worst of all was their thoughts. Along the line of "We're not IFR/CPL, why should we care"

... damn I agree with people saying that's frightening.

Sure as PPL we won't probably use VOR, NDB very often (if not at all) (some of us will probably fly planes that don't have any nav system) but we should be aware all the time of where we are and what VOR lays nearby, which direction and what distance we are from it.

Even as a PPL I might sometime use a VOR to confirm my position.

In my PPL training I've actually got some VOR training. I didn't know it wasn't required and am glad I got some.

But one thing I remember from the rules is along the lines of "be familiar with everything possible about your upcoming flight ..." it's the same for both VFR and IFR. Use common places to report your position (big city, airport, NDB, VOR) it may help not wasting all this time searching for some little thin black line (which one ?) lost between 3 rivers, 6 lakes and 2 hills somewhere on the VNC.

I don't think people in my school were stupid. I'd rather say "they don't care" ... they wanna fly for pleasure and don't realize they're on the same airspace as some big jets with 150 pax moving up to 250 kts.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:08 pm

From the Transport Canada private pilot flight test guide:

radio navigation aids will not be used

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:19 pm

From the Transport Canada private pilot flight test guide:

Quote:
radio navigation aids will not be used

Headley, thanks I was not aware that they had that policy.

Do they go as far as dictating that a PPL does not have to know the basics of these nav aids?

Last time I looked at an aviation map VOR's and NDB's were printed on them, so commmon sense would dictate that during the 45 to 100 hours these people are being taught to fly the basics of these aids would be taught.

Grey_Wolf · Post by **Grey_Wolf** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:35 pm

The "instrument" requirment for the PPL flight test is to fly full panel straight and level for 2 minutes, turn the aircraft at rate one, 180 degrees, and then straight and level for another 120 seconds. Also, to recover from an unusual attitude (normally a spiral dive).

Although VOR and ADF are not required for the PPL flight test, their basic knowledge is required for the PPL written. Hence, I teach it regardless! It makes good sense to teach folks these skills. Why do most folks learn to fly? So that they can fly cross-country and visit places. Why not add to their skills by giving them another tool in their repertoire to navigate?

lyncher · Post by **lyncher** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:58 pm

well you are supposed to know evrything pertaining to your flight right? which means, even if you dont know the area, you're going to look at your VNC to have a look at your route, right? Navaids are on the VNC so you should no about them.......

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:06 pm

I know a student (not recommended by me!) who attempted to use a radio nav (NDB) on the ppl test and was failed by the examiner for doing so.

El Comat · Post by **El Comat** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:08 pm

eternalhold wrote:DEAR GOD NOOOooooooo!!!!! I wish I did but never will understand why people insist on those last few words "any conflicting please advise"?!

Now THAT is a complete waste of electrons. No! if I'm in conflict I WILL NOT ADVISE... how else am I suppose to sneek up and scare the crap out someone if they know where I am?

Finally someone else gets it!!!

Jess · Post by **Jess** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:11 pm

The problem for instructors is that a student with incomplete nav aid knowledge is more dangerous than one with none. You don't ever want to produce a pilot who thinks they know more than they actually do, so you have to choose between teaching them nothing about the navs or everythng, and how do you convince most PPLs to cough up the coin for that? And what do you do about the student who's just not capable of grasping the NDB but is capable of safely learning the PPL requirements?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:05 pm

When a PPL is learning to fly are they not taught to read a map?

Therefore if they can read a map why can't they relate to a VOR or NDB on said map?

They do not need to know how to use it as a nav aid as in instrument flying but is it asking to much for them to be able to relate their position on the map to these aids?

Same with a nuclear reactor on a map, they can relate it to their position without knowing how the reactor works.

This discussion started with commmercial pilots, but even private pilots should have a map with them and know how to read it.