Students and Radiospeak

[Shiny Side Up]

Ok, this is one that continues to puzzle me. Where on earth do people continue to come up with bizarre and unwieldly practices on the radio? I mean this is one area where I'm stumped on how to get people to do things right. It doesn't help that it seems that ninety percent of the pilots out there don't do things right either? Ideally each student should be talking on the radio like their instructor. Now given if we all go back far enough there theoretically should be very little deviation in what we say. Now I've tried everything to curb these creative tendancies of pilots, but it never seems to work.

Here's stuff I constantly hear:

1. People who insist on repeating everything in each of their transmissions twice. WTF, who taught them this? I mean in class G we're supposed to realize that all the other flyers out there might not be %100 on the ball, but this is going overboard.

2. People who insist on telling me what frequency they're on. Ok, I sort of figured that out since I'M LISTENING ON THAT FREQUENCY TOO. Maybe Ok for communicating with FSS, but a little redundant everywhere else.

3. Trucker talk - you people know who you are. You know, the "over and outs", the "roger, rogers" and what not. STOP IT!

Taht's not to mention all the single case stuff I hear coming out of people's mouths. After I had instructed one student on how to respond to ATC, when they actually had to the response was an "Okie Dokie!" I just about jumped out of the airplane. Another decided that instead of "Mike" for M that "Michael" sounded more official...

Now I realize that we all flub up occasionally on the radio - it happens to the best of us - but Jebus, think before you talk out there!

[bb lint]

roger, roger that, good buddy...over and out!!...(gotta go put the hammer down got the smokeys on my tail)

[ahramin]

We don't call them the unwashed masses for nothing.

Just do your best to educate and keep in mind the waltzing bear. The remarkable thing is not how well it waltzes, but that it can waltz at all.

[oldtimer]

Don't you just love the ying yangs who think one has to shout into the mic. Russians are great for that.
Or the dildo that has to read back every bit of information ATC gives or worse yet those who fail to read back compulsory items such as hold short instructions.
I remember a controller, now desceased, who was in the YBW tower one night when a private owner was doing night circuits in his own airplane. Realizing the guy was saying the words and expecting a reply but not understanding or listening, our hero controller did this

"ABC downwind touch and go"
"ABC Apple pie and coffee to go"
"ABC"

"ABC downwind touch and go.
"ABC Cheeseburger and fries to go"
"ABC"
This went on for a couple of circuits till traffic warranted a change.

This same controller was now working Calgary Terminal when a student from a small town flight school on his solo crosscountry had to transit the zone. He had all the required callups written down and was responding quite well till asked what type of aircraft he was and he just could not figure out what the controller wanted.
Panic was starting to set in.
Finally our hero controller asked him "What does it say on the steering wheel?"
"Cessna Skyhawk"
"Thank you"

Just be thankful Aeroflot either does not fly into your area or have cleaned up their act. Aeroflot had a freighter inbound to Saskatoon from the east to pick up horsemeat one evening as I was attempting to transit the zone eastbound YXD to YWG. ATC held me 35 miles west of YXE till the yahoo got down, the procedures and communication was so bad. When I flew into Russia from Nome Alaska, the Russian controllers and procedures were a clusterfuck at best.

But the very best is the dimwit who recognises a voice or registration and just has to say HI!!! especially when it is busy and they just give a quick grunt. Ill bet 3 or 4 airplanes or controller are sitting there wondering what that was all about. Dumb shit!!!

Wouldn't life be so much better if everone was perfect like you and I....

[sakism]

Recently was doing circuits with a student. Had just taken off when I heard:

"...... Traffic, XXX is 9 miles west to join straight in downwind for 27"

OK - not bad - but I wanted some idea of the time frame I was dealing with so I asked his type.

"And ........ Traffic, we're a low wing aircraft."

WTF? That is probably the most useless radio call I had ever heard.

[jetjob]

Thats a good one Sakism! How about "turning left final"

[merlin]

I for the most part always include what frequency I'm on, and most other pilots around here do as well (even the big boys). This is because most of us have two or more radios and use then. So if I'm on 123.2 and 126.7 it can be hard to tell which frequency the other guy is transmitting on.

[bb lint]

People who insist on telling me what frequency they're on. Ok, I sort of figured that out since I'M LISTENING ON THAT FREQUENCY TOO. Maybe Ok for communicating with FSS, but a little redundant everywhere else.

Totally agree with Merlin on this one,
if you have multi frequency radios ie flip flop systems, it is far better to ask or tell the frequecy if unsure than to be afraid to screw up a radio call and risk making someone roll their eyes. Neophytes (and the ol'fogies) should NEVER be afraid to ask for or confirm clarifacation. Remember we need to keep aviation as safe as possible even if something's get on our nerves. BTW some of the worst radio calls have been from commercial and/or off duty flight instructors, but alas! .....that is another thread for another day.

[Killer Klown]

Ever get the student that tells you what they are gonna say so that you can correct them before they screw up; and then they push the mic button and freeze while turning to look at you like its your fault.

[shitdisturber]

Well not this week anyway, but then I haven't done any instruction in a couple of weeks either.

[Shiny Side Up]

I for the most part always include what frequency I'm on, and most other pilots around here do as well (even the big boys). This is because most of us have two or more radios and use then. So if I'm on 123.2 and 126.7 it can be hard to tell which frequency the other guy is transmitting on.

Granted like I said in some cases its necessary, like when you're talking to a FSS who's probably the only guy there who might be listening on several frequencies. BUT... even if you do have two radios on the go the mystery is usually solved by the beginning of the transmission, for example: MIDDLEOFNOWHERE TRAFFIC...

Now if we're all to believe that most pilots aren't listening to the radio while they're flying, possibly because they can't fly and maintain a listening watch as well, maybe we should eliminate radios from cars, because there seems to be a lot of people out there that can't do two things at once. Maybe we should see how often bubblegum is related to aircraft accidents.

Keep 'em short, Keep 'em to the point.

[merlin]

If I'm flying into MIDDLEOFNOWHERE uncontroled airport with 123.2 traffic frequence I will make a call on 126.7 first and then 123.2. The radio calls for the most part are the same... what aircraft, where I am, altitude, and what I'm doing (ie. landing, flying over, etc.)

So how then are you going to know which frequence I'm on, or how am I going to know which your on. I think you want to assume, or guess. Like they say though " to assume makes an ass of u and me".

[merlin]

One other thing. I agree very much with keeping it short and to the point. However, I have heard radio calls that are too short and simple and leave to much info out, as a result it takes 3-4 more calls to get it all cleared up.

Keep it short and to the point, but cover it all the first time.

[Apache64_]

ok so your radio bites or mine does or you get stepped on an i miss the middleofnowhere traffic part but you seem to be somewhere near me, i have two radios and now we are going to play radio tag while i try to figure out which freq you are on. IF you include the freq its easy to figure out, especially when you are flying north and listening to 122.8 and 126.7 the two most common frequencie in the north.

cheers

apache

[scubasteve]

I agree that when its busy use the proper radio calls but if its busy then why not liven up your circuits a little - to a certain extent of course. I think it keeps you from mindlessly saying something you always say and not really thinking about what you're saying. Always nice for the controllers too I'm sure to hear "thanks for the help" or "have a good afternoon" etc

[hz2p]

I couldn't give a sh1t how someone says something, as long as they don't waste time doing it.

I grit my teeth when on a busy frequency I hear some airline-wannabe say at the end of a long and mostly useless transmission, "Any conflicting traffic advise Cessna One Seven Two Golf Alpha Bravo Charlie on one two three point two".

Gee, thanks for telling me that. If you hadn't, I would have kept quiet and rammed you on final, dipsh1t.

[Shiny Side Up]

ok so your radio bites or mine does or you get stepped on an i miss the middleofnowhere traffic part but you seem to be somewhere near me, i have two radios and now we are going to play radio tag while i try to figure out which freq you are on. IF you include the freq its easy to figure out, especially when you are flying north and listening to 122.8 and 126.7 the two most common frequencie in the north.

cheers

apache

Firstly if the cause is the fact that yours or my radio bites, then the problem isn't the meathod of radiowork used, and adding the frequency twice, thrice or whatever isn't going to help. Secondly in the case of most uncontrolled radio conflicts the radio is your second method of avoiding traffic, the first is your eyes. If you think an aircraft is in your vicinity then look out for him/her! This is one of the hugest mistakes I see most students make, and a lot of experienced pilots as well. Soon as they hear someone they think they might have to talk to on the radio, all attention gets diverted into the cockpit. Is it my radio? is it his? what if I tap it? Worry about your airplane first! There's nothing worse than hearing two pilots on the radio trying to figure out who's hearing who.

[I'd Rather Be Flying]

Keep in mind that it's not just students who make mistakes or use the radios inappropriately when transmitting. Last weekend, a few students and I listened in as a couple of King Air drivers jibber-jabbered on the radio in uncontrolled airspace on the ATF. These are supposed to be the professinals.

First of all, they were talking about something completely unrelated to flying and when they did make some radio calls, it was something along the lines of ".... traffic, ABC will be taxiing for runway ** any conflicting traffic advise ABC blah, blah, blah....". Who the hell teaches the phrase: "any conflicting traffic" or "any conflicts advise please advise"?? I'm pretty certain you won't find that in the study booklet for radiotelephone procedures. OF COURSE IF THERE IS A POSSIBILITY OF CONFLICT, WE WILL LET YOU KNOW!!!!!

Remember the old phrase: Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. State who you are, where you are, and what you're doing. Short and sweet and to the point!

If you want to talk about something unrelated to flying, do it elsewhere, and let those who need the radio use it!

[sammy]

deleted

[Big_Oaf]

I think the mess is in the difference between controlled or uncontrolled airspace. When your out in the middle of nowhere and someone screws up their radio chatter.....is it really that bad? The line had been dead for 10 minutes, a little sound is comforting. However when there are 30 people all trying to get thier two cents in,(while flying in close proximity) you need to keep it as professional as possible. I don't agree or disagree with anyone, I just think there are times when it is appropriate to state what frequency your on, and there are instances when stateing this really is a waste of air time.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I would say as a general rule instructors do not put enough care in teaching radio work. You let things slide at the beginning because of all the other stuff you have to get accross. I know I was as guilty as the next guy when I started instructing. The problem is early bad habits are hard to break. Now the only instructing I do is the odd check out and IFR renewals, but I am ruthless in insisting on proper radio work. I think particulary for the commercial students sounding professional on the radio is important and the carrot you can use is when they go on the check flight for their first job the boss will be favorably impressed.


Most of my flying has been in BC lower mainland a very busy piece of airspace. This summer however I was up in the Yukon and I could not help get a chuckle from the more relaxed almosphere.

My favorite: Overheard on 126.7

Whitehorse radio this is XXX

Whitehorse radio go ahead XXX

Yah radio would you amend my VFR flight plan I am stopping at big top lake and I wll be another 30 min on route

Long Pause

Ah XXX, whitehorse radio I am not sure of the location of big top lake

Oh its right by Joe Browns trap line.

Oh Yah I got it now ! Ok your flight plan is amended have a good flight

[Shiny Side Up]

Keep in mind that it's not just students who make mistakes or use the radios inappropriately when transmitting. Last weekend, a few students and I listened in as a couple of King Air drivers jibber-jabbered on the radio in uncontrolled airspace on the ATF. These are supposed to be the professinals.

First of all, they were talking about something completely unrelated to flying and when they did make some radio calls, it was something along the lines of ".... traffic, ABC will be taxiing for runway ** any conflicting traffic advise ABC blah, blah, blah....". Who the hell teaches the phrase: "any conflicting traffic" or "any conflicts advise please advise"?? I'm pretty certain you won't find that in the study booklet for radiotelephone procedures. OF COURSE IF THERE IS A POSSIBILITY OF CONFLICT, WE WILL LET YOU KNOW!!!!!

That's what I mean! Despite all the instruction I might give someone on radiospeak, all it takes is for the student to hear one of those "Hicktown traffic on One Two Two decimal Eight this is Cessna Skyhawk D model Charlie Golf Alpha Bravo Charlie at Five thousand Five hundred feet fifty-three point six miles north of Hicktown heading One Five Five any conflicting traffic please respond on One Two Two decimal Eight Charlie Golf Alpha Bravo Charlie at Hicktown Traffic" For the whole thing to go out the window. I figure that there was one instructor somewhere sometime who decided to teach one student that and it spread like a virus throughout the airwaves.

[lilfssister]

What about initial call-up to a ground station? Can we do that one...PLEASE! And the second call...what about that one??? What do instructors teach (I'm assuming, of course, that you all do it correctly, yourselves! )?

Unlike you lucky folks in the pointy end I don't get the bible-I mean AIP- sent to my mailbox, so don't have the reference handy, but I KNOW it says in there somewhere that your initial call to a ground station should consist of just the aircraft type and call sign. Not type, call sign, intentions, position, altitude, point of departure, ETA, and what you had for lunch. All that stuff in there other than type and call sign belongs in your response to our "Cessna FABC, Rubber Boot Radio" reponse to your intial call. (Well, I really don't care what you had for lunch ). Once in a while, we might catch it all, we'll get at least SOME of it, but if we are busy listening to one or two other freqs/phones at the same time, doing weather, etc., they're going to have to repeat most of it anyway.

In the second call, it's nice to get ALL that (other than lunch menu) info all at once, without having to ask for it.

And STANDBY. There's another one. "Cessna FABC, Rubber Boot Radio, Standby". "Rubber Boot Radio, ABC is a C172, 10 miles east inbound for a touch and go." ABC, Radio, STANDBY!!."

I know they're students, I know they're nervous/anxious, sometimes, but do you do any simulated radiospeak, before they actuallly get out there and try it for real?

And I agree with something "tower controller" said on the ESL thread. Get your students up to the Tower or FSS for a visit! I can never understand why someone wouldn't do that, it's a great opportunity to see what's happening at the other end of the mic. We are REQUIRED to ride around in noisy airport maintenance vehicles to see/hear what they are dealing with when we talk to them, and I'm sure most if not all of us have been up with local pilots, or sat in the jumpseat (before 9/11 of course).

[hi maint]

Ideally each student should be talking on the radio like their instructor. Now given if we all go back far enough there theoretically should be very little deviation in what we say. Now I've tried everything to curb these creative tendancies of pilots, but it never seems to work.
!

Possibly there could be a missing link here. Would you know or have access to a script for the various standard radio call procedures that a student would encounter and could therefore refer to? This could help your "students" immensely and unlock the mystery-speak of the radio.

Maybe something he could practice on the ground a little before he flys? The standard training manuals are ambiguous to say the least. I would think if someone wrote out or referred the student to a standard acceptable practice ( and sometimes not so standard) for the various radio calls, at least one could have a benchmark to study from, memorize or at least to refer to when "freeze up" occurs.

Sometimes, with all the things a student has to concentrate on, "so-called radiospeak" may well be on the same level as stage fright.
"Oh m'god everyone can hear me and I don't want to sound like a f-up!...then someone's ( like S-side-up) gonna post something shitty about me on the internet!!!"

Just parroting the calls from the instructor doesn't always ring any bells unless done over and over again ..this takes up valuable lesson time, if the student is prepared with a "script" (so to speak) he could ensure that he is smooth, clear and concise in his calls.
Just fodder for you...and yer students to make them a little more sure of themselves .
. this might also relieve us a little of your bloody complaining

[Right Seat Captain]

lilfssister,

Although I'm not a controller of any kind, I feel your pain. I do go over simulated radio calls with my students, and they usually get the calls down pat before our flight. But when the pressure is on in the plane, and they are communicating with Tower, Terminal, FSS whatever, like most other lessons, any preparation on the ground goes out the window. I do my best to coach students at first when they are having problems, or something they didn't expect over the radio comes up. But sometimes, they are just too fast to push the PTT button, and they say something I know is wrong, or useless to you guys. On the inside, I slap my head bang head everytime this happens, but there's nothing I can do at that point.

Although I must apologize, not necessarily to you specifically, but to all controllers, because at some point, I'm glad to let the student make mistakes on the radio that I know the controller will correct them, because they learn much faster that way! So again, I'm sorry for the trouble, but I know there have been a couple of times the controllers got a bit of a laugh out of it...so I hope that makes up for it.