Canadian ATPL -> European ATPL

[wingspan]

Hey guys,

I recall reading a while back that we will be able to convert our ICAO ATPL into European as easy as the FAA one. Anyone have any news/info?

Thanks,

WS

[Speedbird Junior]

Really? I would like to see the info relating to that too. I am currently deep in JAA ATPL study and the amount of study, detail in subject matter and complexity is pretty brutal - expect a minimum of 6 months full time study at the moment just to write the 14 JAA exams, and that's before the flight tests.

That said, about 60% of it is pointless theory that you will never use in an aircraft on a daily basis. Fabulous....

[Aeros]

I recall reading a while back that we will be able to convert our ICAO ATPL into European as easy as the FAA one. Anyone have any news/info?

They are still in talks with the CAA. There is a plan to come up with an agreement similar to the on that we have with the FAA but things are still in the "negotiations" phase.

If it does come to be, it likely won't be for at least a year. My bet is taht it will likely take longer than that.

[YYZ_Instructor]

I can't wait to see that happen!!
Until Canada conforms to the JAA standards of training and subjects it will never happen. The things you have to learn in those examinations may not be of use from day to day, but the general knowledge of why everything works and how is very important.
When you go to University most of the stuff is just theory, not that you will need on your day to day job, but a way of making you think in a different way and problem solve in ways others don't think of. Its a way of opening your mind.... No one said that learning how SSR works or how it locks on will ever affect your day to day flying, but the concept is quite remarkable.

This is by no means a stab at who is better trained or flies, its a simple fact that 12 countries decided to make things the same and they will not allow others to acquire their license without conforming to those JAR requirements.

I've flown in both areas and have both licenses, but the fact remains we fly different in both places, and it works here and there.

Good luck Speedbird Junior with your exams....I know how it feels.

[xsbank]

It is an onerous process and its really quite silly. You can put a foreign-registered a/c in Europe and fly it with a non-JAA license in an out of all the same places. You just need the JAA license to fly a JAA-registered a/c.
Yes, the JAA is harder to get, and it will make it easier to pass an interview at Cathay, but its still crap.

Stupid bureaucratic crap.

To fly a Bermuda-registered a/c you just send them your license and a page from your log and tell them whose a/c you will be flying and ergo bingo, Bermudan ATPL. 2 or 3 day process.

S.b.c.

[Tango01]

What's so special about the JAA ATPL? You may not need to know here in Canada how the SSR works or the complexity of TCAS/Mode S, but hey, you can learn that on your own.

T01

[wingspan]

Thanks for the replies guys!

WS

[Speedbird Junior]

Stupid bureaucratic crap

Yes and no. No doubt there is a lot of stuff in the JAA syllabus that you will never use. You go into great detail on things like met, instruments, gyros, electrics, radio theory, human factors, worldwide global nav, etc etc. Its aimed completely at airline level from the get go. Sure, some of it is rather surplus, but a lot of the more advanced stuff applies directly to transport category aircraft operations (the syllabus in many schools is based directly on the 737-800 or the A320)

Added to that, its a filtration process. It takes massive commitment and will power to drag yourself through the written exams (which are quite tough) and the large financial burden of it all. Its do-able by most people, but a lot are put off by the challenge, so its not a case of every man and his dog trying to get a frozen ATPL. And yeah, at the end of the day, it does require some intelligence (not much admittedly) and a good basic understanding of Math and Physics.

[ei ei owe]

That said, about 60% of it is pointless theory that you will never use in an aircraft on a daily basis. Fabulous....

That's why I appreciate the Canadian ATPL system. It's 15% of what the JAA is. It has it's useless info content as well but so much less of your total time will be spent on that useless percentage that it will open up your schedule for what you really want to do. All "really important" information should be covered by the company training where you work.

[wallypilot]

This comes back to a post a while back, that was about putting low timers in the right seat of Trans. Category aircraft. The reason for these ATPL's being so arduous, is because from the low experience perspective, they need all this crap to learn a lot of the underlying stuff that more experienced folks in Canada may learn on the job. In Canada, the system is a bit more organic in nature, in that the experience required to fly heavy transport aircraft is gleened over time in the lower levels of aviation. I bet that if the aviation job market in Canada was anything like the EU, we would see a quick change to the ATPL program for those low timers that might get hired at Jazz, AC, WJ, whatever. I bet we'd see a system that channels pilots earlier on either towards Airline, or Other. If you choose the Airline route, you're going straight into a JAA type program. If you choose the "Other" route you are going into the traditional TC program.

If you go to the JAA with 3000 hours of heavy jet time, with more that 1500 PIC, you pretty much get a rubber stamp. It's really just the frozen ATPL and ICAO license holders without a type rating and without 500 hours on a multicrew certified aircraft that have to go through all that stuff. The best would be to arrive with an ICAO license and 3000 hours heavy jet time. If you don't have that, it helps a lot to have a 2 crew a/c type rating with at least 500 hours in said aircraft. This cuts down on the amount of work you have to do in order to get the JAA-ATPL.

And honestly, to have a low experienced pilot flying in an airline environment in high density airspace, you probably want to compensate for lack of experience with over education.

Just IMHO.

[Speedbird Junior]

If you choose the Airline route, you're going straight into a JAA type program.

And honestly, to have a low experienced pilot flying in an airline environment in high density airspace, you probably want to compensate for lack of experience with over education

Good post. And 100% agree.

[g5]

What they really should quiz you on:

After a full rest period, you begin your duty at 0500z flying two sectors in the morning, finishing at 0900z with a daystop in a hotel, then begin again at 1400z with two evening sectors and a scheduled flight duty period ending at 1900z. Assuming the hotel is within 15 minutes of the airport and your company has no FTL variation scheme approved in their Ops Manual, how many cheeseburgers can you eat on your per diems?

[hifliers]

If you have a Canadian Airline Transport License, and more than 5000 hours above 12500 on the license, you are considered a professional, and you can get the European License simply by applying for, and writing the air regs exam. There are European Aviation Consultants who will sell you a very intense 4-day equivalency study course and book the exam for you. Above 85% will give you the JAA.

good luck

[xsbank]

Hifliers, is this new? I have friend who was a captain on a DC10, flew and trained people on the BD700, has a TC and an FAA ATPL and he just finished all 14 exams and the flight test to get his JAA license. Unless things have changed recently, there is no 'professional courtesy' or shortcut for experience. Have you done something like this yourself? At least a JAA license is easier to get than a green card!

If you are correct, I'll get one too as I have 2 ATPLs (not including Bermudan!).

[YYZ_Instructor]

Incorrect.

This is a statement related to the conversion:

ATPL Conversions
If you are converting a non-JAA ATPL the number of ground and flight tests you need to complete depends on your experience.

High Time Pilots
If you are very experienced you should you should apply to the CAA for a formal assessment using Form SRG 1103.

The qualifying criteria are

more than 3000 hours total time on aircraft of more than 30,000kg AUW
more than 1500 hours pilot in command on aircraft of more than 30,000kg AUW
type rated on an aircraft of more than 30,000kg AUW
more than 500 hours total time on the aircraft above
able to complete a flight test on the same aircraft
When you have completed the assessment form you need to send it or take it to the CAA with your original licences and log books. The CAA will tell you that you need to pass two written exams, Human Performance and Aviation Law, and pass a flight test on the aircraft you are rated on. The flight test is referred to as a skills test, it is part handling check and part IR renewal check.

Experienced In Two Pilot Operations
If you don't meet the criteria above but have

more than 1500 hours on two-pilot aircraft,
are type rated already and
have more than 500 hours on type
you need to pass all 14 ground exams but don't need to attend a formal groundschool course. You will need to pass a skills test on the aircraft you are rated on.

None of the Above
If you fall into neither category above for whatever reason but still hold an ATPL you must complete an approved course of ground training and get your application form signed by your training provider before you sit the full set of ATPL exams. The length of the course can be reduced at the discretion of the Head of Training.

You need to complete two separate flight tests.

A Skills Test
An Instrument Rating
The skills test is a handling check flown on a complex aircraft, defined as an aircraft with retractable gear and a variable pitch prop. There is no formal training requirement before the test but you should anticipate 5 to 10 hours to get used to the profile and the aircraft.

If you hold an ATPL you must, by definition, also hold an ICAO IR. This needs to be converted to a JAA IR. The training requirement to convert is to complete at least 15 hours before the test, up to ten can be completed in a flight simulator.

[Freddy_Francis]

Ive also looked deeply into the whole JAA conversion and it is alot to handle it seems. However I recently read that if you have 100hrs on any a/c (im talking C150) and you are going for a JAA PPL it excludes you from some exams. This is striclty only for the ppl and i do not know if you have to make up the exams if you continue to persue the JAA CPL/IR. Keep in mind in Canada we have alot of pilots who are private pilots getting Cpl licenses so they can have cheaper insurance(not that theres anything wrong with that)....I dont believe its an option in Europe....but like I said I dont really know. I did make a phone call to Moncton a year ago. Seems pretty straight forward, I think though that if I do decide to take the plunge id go with some time under my belt and not 250hrs.

[xsbank]

I will find out from my friend to see what he did, when he gets back from Russia.

[Chuck D]

The JAA will not accept a foriegn ICAO-Non-JAA ATPL for a direct swap to a JAA ATPL. If you have the required time ie. high time/type rated pilot, the CAA/JAA will validate your foriegn licence but they won't give you a JAA ATPL. Even if you have 15,000 hours you will still have to to all of the exams.

[loadshed]

If you have a Canadian Airline Transport License, and more than 5000 hours above 12500 on the license, you are considered a professional, and you can get the European License simply by applying for, and writing the air regs exam

wrong. 12,500 means nothing in JAA land !

[Speedbird Junior]

30,000kg AUW

Apparently the golden figure (with PIC hours requirement too) for exemption from most of the JAA exams. Flight test still required though.

30,000Kg = 66,000 Ibs!

[Cat Driver]

Special authorizations for specific types of flying are issued if you qualify for same.

These special authorizations are issued without having to write tests, however in some cases a flight test is required such as in air display flying.